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Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 18th 20, 06:55 PM posted to rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,ca.driving
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC

On 18 Nov 2020 13:17:51 -0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> What you want to know is in the graphs for the
> two O2 sensors and how they track.


Hi Scott,

Thanks for that gentle reminder, as I will borrow the vehicle today, but I
have to check it in their garage, as I only get one chance a day to test
warmup conditions (I think, at least, at Silicon Valley temperatures).

> But you will not figure the problem out just by looking at the plots, you will
> figure the problem out by thinking about how the emission control system works.


Well, to tell it to you bluntly, I'm not omnipotent.
o I didn't know anything when I first posted this thread

I didn't even know the _range_, which I've since learned is basically about
~100 mV for lean conditions, to about ~900mv for rich conditions.

Nor did I know when I opened this thread, what the expected differences
were for the upstream versus downstream lambda sensors, where the front
should be changing far more frequently than the rear (which should read, as
much as possible, a stoichiometric ~450mv under steady warmed load).

What I didn't know at first was why voltages bounced all over the place.

But now I've boned up, a tiny bit, on the fact that the bouncing around of
the voltages is "normal", at least for the upstream side, since the engine
computer is constantly adjusting the ratio (within seconds) depending on a
whole bunch of factors, not the least of which is engine loading.

Further honing what I didn't realize at first is that there are two states:
1. Steady state (which is where most of my prior measurements lay), &
2. Warmup state (which is where I need to focus, as you had advised me).

What I need is what most sites don't provide, which is I need to learn more
about this warmup process of the cat, since it's a 'warmup efficiency' DTC.

I only get about a minute (or two at most), right?

>>When do I take the readings once the engine is warmed up?

>
> All the time. You take them before it warms up, you take them after it warms
> up, you take them over the course of driving around. What you are looking for
> is trends and correlation more than specific values.


Yes. But.

I belatedly realized I need to focus specifically on 'warmup efficiency'.
o My main focus now revolves around how to diagnose 'warmup efficiency'.

Obviously I need to figure out what 'warmup' even means, which I need to do
as my homework, since I'm not even sure how long warmup of the cat lasts
(the sensors only take ~20 seconds to warm up, but I'm not sure how long it
takes the cat to warm up, nor, if a cat can even warm up twice in the same
day given Silicon Valley typical warm nightly & daily temperature ranges).

I'm gonna borrow the vehicle today but it's wet outside so I'm not sure if
I'm gonna crawl underneath to check the rear lambda sensor; but I will at
least check the live OBD data during the first 20 seconds of the lambda
sensor warmup and then the first few minutes, where I'm guessing a cat
warms up in, oh, I don't know, within the first five minutes perhaps?
o I'll look at an engine temperature reading (coolant perhaps?)
o Then I'll look at the front & rear sensors (and what they do over time)

I may need to buy an infrared thermometer to check how the cat warms up in
the first five minutes with the vehicle on jack stands; but no sense in
doing that until I learn more about how the cat _should_ warm up, as the
numbers won't mean anything if they're measured under the wrong sequence.

>>I don't have the necessary equipment to save or see graphs.
>>o I can only see the live data as it happens.

>
> Well, that's useless. So you're going to have to plot it on semilog paper
> by hand. Your scanner does not provide ANY plotting functions?


My OBD scanner _does_ provide plotting functions; but it's second hand (I
picked it up at a garage sale for a few bucks). It works fine for live
data, but I don't have the cabling or software to view the graphs.
o Harbor Freight item #60693 Cen-Tech OBDII/EOBD Deluxe Scanner

It also does 'freeze frame' but I haven't even started to look at what that
means to me, in terms of how I can use that to diagnose warmup efficiency.

In summary, I started out with the wrong assumptions, and I ran the wrong
tests, and I didn't know how the system worked... but I'm reducing my
ignorance by reading up on how the system works, and I'm gonna focus on the
all-important warmup process, where I think I only get one chance a day.
--
Experience is knowing which measurements to take, when, where, & why.
Ads
  #22  
Old November 18th 20, 07:41 PM posted to rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,ca.driving
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC

On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:35:03 -0500, wrote:

> Oh Arlen


Permanent plonk! (the fact such creepy disgusting people exist is scary)

Moving forward, I found this Mitsubishi emissions recall bulletin titled:
o Catalytic converter overheating - emissions recall campaign
o EMR-05-001REVII, December 2005, Model 2002-05 Lancer
<https://www.autocodes.com/uploads/mitsubishi/05-0001.pdf>

Purpose:
Some affected vehicles have incorrect parameters in the Powertrain Control
Module (PCM) software that may cause teh warm-up catalytic converter to
overheat and melt when the vehicle is repeatedly driven at wide-open
throttle.
o For all affected vehicles, reprogram the PCM as described in this
bulletin, regardless of the age or mileage of the vehicle.
o If an affected vehicle has a Service Engine Soon (SES) lamp on and
DTC P0421 set, also replace the warm-up catalytic converter, using
an exhaust manifold repair kit.

Affected vehicles:
2002-2005 Lancer models equipped with 2.0L engine.

Customer notification:
A letter will be sent to all owners of affected vehicles, telling them to
bring their vehicle to a Mitsubishi Motors dealer to have the PCM
reprogrammed at no change, and that if their vehicle has a SES lamp on for
failure of the warm-up catalytic converter (DTC P0421), they will also
receive a new warm-up catalytic converter.

In addition, owners will be advised that the new warranty coverage for the
warm-up catalytic converter will be extended from 8 years/80,000 miles to a
limit of 8 years/100,000 miles. Until February 28, 2006, replacement of the
warm-up catalytic converter will be free of charge, regardless of vehicle
mileage.

After February 28, 206, all owners (regardless of vehicle mileage) will be
entitled to the PCM reflash free of charge. However, warm-up catalytic
converter replacement will not be covered under the warranty if a 2004-2005
model has over 80,000 miles.
o P/N MN195802 Lancer 2.0L, 2004, Exhaust Manifold Repair Kit
(includes manifold with catalytic converter, gasket, and nuts)
--
Mitsubishi Customer Relations Department +1-888-648-7820
o I need to ask the owner for the VIN and give them a call.


  #23  
Old November 18th 20, 08:34 PM posted to rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,ca.driving
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:41:17 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> o P/N MN195802 Lancer 2.0L, 2004, Exhaust Manifold Repair Kit
> (includes manifold with catalytic converter, gasket, and nuts)


Drat.

The recall was already performed; but they didn't replace the warmup cat.
o All the dealer did was reflash the PCM (i.e., P0421 didn't come up then).

Just in case, this appears to be the $400 + $40 tax recall parts:
o P/N MN195802 Lancer 2.0L, 2004, Exhaust Manifold Repair Kit
<https://www.mitsubishipartscentral.com/p-exhaust-manifold-catalytic-convertor-lancer-2004-mn195802>
"Original equipment genuine Mitsubishi part
exhaust manifold / catalytic convertor
Fits only 2004 Lancer with 2.0l engine
This kit includes the gaskets and hardware for installation.
California certified."

I'm not sure yet if there are two cats, but it appears the car may have
o A warmup cat, plus,
o A regular cat

Since this recall talks only about the "warmup cat" melting due to a poorly
coded PCM (which they reflashed, apparently, as per EMR-05-001REVII TSB).
--
So Mitsubishi knew about this P0421 warmup-cat problem all along.
  #24  
Old November 18th 20, 08:42 PM posted to rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,ca.driving
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensivesolution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC

On 11/18/2020 1:41 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:35:03 -0500, wrote:
>
>> Oh Arlen

>
> Permanent plonk! (the fact such creepy disgusting people exist is scary)
>



Oh I love it when you plonk me, plonk me again and again you beast of a man
  #25  
Old November 18th 20, 10:10 PM posted to rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,ca.driving
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:41:17 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> Permanent plonk! (the fact such creepy disgusting people exist is scary)


BTW, for those who wish to block this prolific worthless piece of ****
troll, below you will find plenty of his socks & some of his threads.

By blocking those socks, your Usenet experience immediately gets better.

An example of how this same troll trolls his own threads is he
o What the lying MSM wonąt say about our election
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/gev1rluwTtA>

And he
o Democrats commit greatest theft in US history
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/D1byNJ9r_N0>

These are all the same troll's sock (IMHO):
o From: " >
o From: "Colonel Edmund J. Burke" <lbone@go usarmy.com>
o From: "Gimme that ol time ACF." >
o From: "Tekkie©" >
o From: Anonymous >
o From:
o From:

o From: Bucky Breeder >
o From: chrisv >
o From: Cleanup in Isle 3 >
o From: Dan >
o From: Ed Pawlowski >
o From: gray_wolf >
o From: Greg Carr >
o From: Grumpy Old White Guy >
o From:

o From: Jeff Hickling <"1st >
o From: Jenny Telia >
o From: Jim Joyce >
o From: Jim S >
o From: Jimmy Kauffenhak >
o From:

o From: Joe Beijing >
o From: Joe Bidet >
o From: Joel >
o From: Jonesy >
o From: Mark >
o From: Monty >
o From: nilsson >
o From: Pabst Blue Ribbon >
o From: Ralph Fox >
o From: Ralph Mowery >
o From: Raven >
o From: Robert Marshall >
o From: Scott Lurndal >
o From: Shadow >
o From: The Horny Goat >
o From: The Sidhe >
o From: vallor >
o From: Voltarin >
o From: Yrrah >
o From: "STD.COM ish jew kike paedophile BARRY Z. SHEIN 700 Washington St B'righton Mass" >
o From: Bill >
o From: Bucky Breeder >
o From: Char Jackson >
o From: Charlie+ >
o From: Gary Dingle >
o From: gray_wolf >
o From: Jim H >
o From: Knut Sveinssen <kss@arbitrage.>
o From: Mark Lloyd >
o From:

--
Note there are so many others that I only provide a snippet here.
o Basically, filter those socks and your Usenet feed becomes usable again.















  #26  
Old November 18th 20, 10:48 PM posted to rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,ca.driving
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensivesolution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC

On 11/18/2020 4:10 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:41:17 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:
>
>> Permanent plonk! (the fact such creepy disgusting people exist is scary)

>
> BTW, for those who wish to block this prolific worthless piece of ****
> troll, below you will find plenty of his socks & some of his threads.
>
> By blocking those socks, your Usenet experience immediately gets better.
>


Youse my hero arlen, you no all about internet
  #27  
Old November 18th 20, 11:30 PM posted to rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,ca.driving
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC

Update:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/QdDv3H7V/obd33.jpg> *a.h.r is 99.9% garbage spam*

Aghast, I happened to use the dejagoogle feature to look at the a.h.r
newsgroup, which, much to my chagrin, is more than 99.9% worthless spam.
o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair>
o <https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair>

Given the lack of value in a.h.r, I will no longer be posting the results
of this thread to that newsgroup, preferring to put the updates on r.a.t
which, thankfully, isn't almost 100% worthless spam as a.h.r clearly is.

I'll also drop ca.driving, such that this is the only worthwhile ng:
o Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution
to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.autos.tech/c/u3mtjAGgwK8>

BTW, the vehicle passed smog today; but that doesn't solve the problem
of diagnostics since it only made it through the intermittent window.
--
We never fail to solve our DIY repairs, working together, for all.
  #28  
Old November 19th 20, 01:00 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensivesolution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC

On 11/18/2020 5:30 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> Update:
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/QdDv3H7V/obd33.jpg> *a.h.r is 99.9% garbage spam*
>
> Aghast, I happened to use the dejagoogle feature to look at the a.h.r
> newsgroup, which, much to my chagrin, is more than 99.9% worthless spam.
> o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair>
> o <https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair>
>
> Given the lack of value in a.h.r, I will no longer be posting the results
> of this thread to that newsgroup, preferring to put the updates on r.a.t
> which, thankfully, isn't almost 100% worthless spam as a.h.r clearly is.
>


Weeze gonna miss you ya no it all arrogant prick. You may have been
trolled but not spammed but yoose to dum to no the difrince yu is.
  #29  
Old November 19th 20, 09:45 PM posted to rec.autos.tech,alt.home.repair,ca.driving
Tekkie©
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC


On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:06:39 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder posted for all of us
to digest...

>
> The goal is to learn how to diagnose a P0421 using an OBDII scanner.
>
> Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution
> to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC given...
>
> 1. College kid's early 2000s Mitsubishi fails OBD-only smog
> 2. Neighbor asks me to help out (as if I know anything, which I don't)
> 3. However, I can borrow the vehicle & run live tests via OBDII scanner
>
> Question is, what do I look for in terms of "live data" to help diagnose?
>
> DETAILS FOLLOW:
> o 180K miles, circa 2003 or 2004 model year (I think)
> o Service Engine Soon has been reported to be on for a year
> o New pre cat 02 sensor had reportedly already been installed 3 months ago
> o Lambda O2 Sensor always tests OK on the OBDII scanner
> o CAT always tests OK on the OBDII scanner
> o All other registers always test OK on the OBDII scanner
> o The P0421 DTC is set "sometimes" when the CAT register is set
> o I cleared the DTCs a few times but the P0421 came back each time
> o I/M Readiness lasts only about a day or three before DTC occurs again
> o Always the same DTC and always only that single DTC
> o Warm Up Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold Bank 1
>
> The question isn't "Does it require a new cat", nor is the question
> "What parts can we blindly throw at it until it finally works".
>
> The question is what "live data" do we look for to _diagnose_
> what the problem actually is (and what's the options for repair).
>
> My main dilemma that I'm asking for your help on is what
> do I look for in the "live data" when I take it for a test
> drive with the OBD scanner?
>
> BTW, I'm familiar with the concept of the Federal Test Procedure
> (also known as the Drive Cycle), but I don't have the specific
> drive cycle for this specific vehicle (but I can guess based on
> the drive cycle for other vehicles, although not the same marquee).
>
> PHOTOS FOLLOW:
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/KzTmdCBx/obd01.jpg> Failed smog
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/nrYpL73W/obd02.jpg> 180,000 miles
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/65tBmj3x/obd03.jpg> 1 DTC with all registers set
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/fRbDwVmH/obd04.jpg> P0421 below threshold, bank 1
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/437G9j8V/obd05.jpg> Lambda sensor OK
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/kgh9D7y7/obd06.jpg> CAT OK
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/901KSB8c/obd08.jpg> EVAP, MIS, FUEL, OK
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/26nfHhN5/obd07.jpg> Live data page 1
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/v8vJcQQC/obd09.jpg> Live data page 2
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/vHqCt3xz/obd10.jpg> Live data page 3
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/NjKSJm1w/obd11.jpg> Live data page 4
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/T3BSZ195/obd12.jpg> What values do I look for?
>
> QUESTION:
> o What do I look for in terms of "live data" to help diagnose?


Here you go. As always check electrical connections.

<https://www.autocodes.com/p0421_mitsubishi.html>

By the way your scanner is not giving you live data that you can can use. You
need something more advanced. You don't need the "cheapest" fix-you need the
"correct" fix and shooting the parts cannon at it doesn't work.

--
Tekkie
  #30  
Old November 19th 20, 10:04 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Tekkie©
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Request for diagnostic advice to pinpoint least expensive solution to resolve persistent P0421 OBDII DTC


On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:10:04 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder posted for all of us
to digest...

>
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:41:17 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:
>
> > Permanent plonk! (the fact such creepy disgusting people exist is scary)

>
> BTW, for those who wish to block this prolific worthless piece of ****
> troll, below you will find plenty of his socks & some of his threads.
>
> By blocking those socks, your Usenet experience immediately gets better.
>
> An example of how this same troll trolls his own threads is he
> o What the lying MSM wonąt say about our election
> <https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/gev1rluwTtA>
>
> And he
> o Democrats commit greatest theft in US history
> <https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair/c/D1byNJ9r_N0>
>
> These are all the same troll's sock (IMHO):
> o From: " >
> o From: "Colonel Edmund J. Burke" <lbone@go usarmy.com>
> o From: "Gimme that ol time ACF." >
> o From: "Tekkie©" >
> o From: Anonymous >
> o From:
> o From:

> o From: Bucky Breeder >
> o From: chrisv >
> o From: Cleanup in Isle 3 >
> o From: Dan >
> o From: Ed Pawlowski >
> o From: gray_wolf >
> o From: Greg Carr >
> o From: Grumpy Old White Guy >
> o From:

> o From: Jeff Hickling <"1st >
> o From: Jenny Telia >
> o From: Jim Joyce >
> o From: Jim S >
> o From: Jimmy Kauffenhak >
> o From:

> o From: Joe Beijing >
> o From: Joe Bidet >
> o From: Joel >
> o From: Jonesy >
> o From: Mark >
> o From: Monty >
> o From: nilsson >
> o From: Pabst Blue Ribbon >
> o From: Ralph Fox >
> o From: Ralph Mowery >
> o From: Raven >
> o From: Robert Marshall >
> o From: Scott Lurndal >
> o From: Shadow >
> o From: The Horny Goat >
> o From: The Sidhe >
> o From: vallor >
> o From: Voltarin >
> o From: Yrrah >
> o From: "STD.COM ish jew kike paedophile BARRY Z. SHEIN 700 Washington St B'righton Mass" >
> o From: Bill >
> o From: Bucky Breeder >
> o From: Char Jackson >
> o From: Charlie+ >
> o From: Gary Dingle >
> o From: gray_wolf >
> o From: Jim H >
> o From: Knut Sveinssen <kss@arbitrage.>
> o From: Mark Lloyd >
> o From:


Well Arlen I have never posted this kind of trash. You first blocked me because
I criticized your nymshifting. I have even posted valuable information in a
reply to this subject. I have posted other information on other topics you have
asked about. I suggest before trashing me you contact me at my email. It is
real as some other posters can attest to. I am a reasonable person. If you have
a problem with me let's discuss it. You are only hurting yourself.
Could someone not on his killfile list please pass on this.
--
Tekkie
 




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