Thermostat

On Fri, 3 Dec 2010 12:16:57 +0000, (SteveH)
wrote:

>Catman > wrote:
>
>> > Where the 156 was great fun, the Beemer is just terrifying. You come
>> > away from hooligan manoeuvres thinking "how the hell did it do that
>> > and how did I survive?". The Alfa's lower pace fun was much more
>> > gentlemanly and relaxing. The Beemer is much more impressive but the
>> > Alfa made me laugh when I drove it and the Beemer doesn't.
>> >
>>
>> That's about the size of it really, isn't it.
>
>The BMW is probably using fancy stability control programs to make it
>feel like there's unlimited grip.

Electronic stability may be fancy but I can easily tell when it starts
interfering. What is quite clear (because I've gone into a corner,
once, too quickly for it to react) is that the car has enormous
mechanical grip (honestly, massively more than a 156). This will be
down to a combination of better tyres and a significantly more
competent sporting chassis (weight distribution, rear wheel drive,
short front overhang, carrying more rubber, correct body control etc).

Note that when I say "competent sporting", this is not as comfortable
as the Alfa but it is capable of speeds over lumpy UK roads that Alfa
could do really well to investigate. The body control (in a sporting
sense) is night and day from a 156. IME, the underside never grounds
and is never likely to even when tested on roads that the Alfa
*really* struggled with. Ok the Alfa may have been fractionally lower,
but it was lighter and had a lighter engine.

I'm not saying that the Beemer is preferable or more enjoyable than an
Alfa (and wouldn't dare recommend one here) but in the handling and
grip it is 'technically' quite a bit better IYSWIM. At least the grip
part is measurable so isn't an opinion though I can't remember where I
got the figures from.

>All stability control does, in reality, is ensure that when you do lose
>it, you'll be going so quickly you'll be in the trees before you know
>what's happened. ;-)

Yes..get it all over with quickly!

I've heard it said, from a Police source commenting on an apparently
generally accepted feeling there, that BMWs crash when people take
their foot *off* the accelerator. When that happens, the electronics
think the driver suddenly knows what he's doing, turns off and
wahey..off into a field they go.. Don't know if that's true and I'm a
bit reluctant to test it (away from a track) somehow. Anyhow, it'll be
Bosch so the fanciness will be widespread among all sorts of
cars..even Italian ones I suspect. The 156 used Bosch ABS IIRC.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

Zathras > wrote:

> >The BMW is probably using fancy stability control programs to make it
> >feel like there's unlimited grip.
>
> Electronic stability may be fancy but I can easily tell when it starts
> interfering. What is quite clear (because I've gone into a corner,
> once, too quickly for it to react) is that the car has enormous
> mechanical grip (honestly, massively more than a 156). This will be
> down to a combination of better tyres and a significantly more
> competent sporting chassis (weight distribution, rear wheel drive,
> short front overhang, carrying more rubber, correct body control etc).

My experience of modern stability programs is that they will be doing
all kinds of clever stuff before you feel them kick in.

Turning it off on my Passat TDI turned it from a pretty competent drive
into something which wanted to understeer off the road all the time -
and torque steer was something else.

I don't doubt that the BMW has a lot more grip - but it'll feel like it
has more than it really does, IYSWIM.

I think the biggest thing is that the 156 was developed from the 155,
which was developed from the Tipo, so we're talking about a 30 year old
basic design, vs something designed 20 years later.

> Note that when I say "competent sporting", this is not as comfortable
> as the Alfa but it is capable of speeds over lumpy UK roads that Alfa
> could do really well to investigate. The body control (in a sporting
> sense) is night and day from a 156. IME, the underside never grounds
> and is never likely to even when tested on roads that the Alfa
> *really* struggled with. Ok the Alfa may have been fractionally lower,
> but it was lighter and had a lighter engine.

I found the BMW was harsh and 'rubbery'. Provided very little feedback
or involvement - which was a disappointment, given the 'ultimate driving
machine' tag.

> I'm not saying that the Beemer is preferable or more enjoyable than an
> Alfa (and wouldn't dare recommend one here) but in the handling and
> grip it is 'technically' quite a bit better IYSWIM. At least the grip
> part is measurable so isn't an opinion though I can't remember where I
> got the figures from.

A lot of magazines tend to confuse handling with grip - cars with silly
amounts of grip are held up as examples of great handling cars.

I don't subscribe to this - my 75 has pretty low limits compared with
modern cars, but the handling is quite amazing.

Best example I've had was my Nissan Primera - it had silly amounts of
grip for a 'cooking' example of a family saloon, and everyone raved
about the 'handling' - I found it inert, lacking in feedback, and I
eventually got rid when I realised that the first time I overstepped the
limit in it, I'd be going very quickly and have a very big accident.

> >All stability control does, in reality, is ensure that when you do lose
> >it, you'll be going so quickly you'll be in the trees before you know
> >what's happened. ;-)
>
> Yes..get it all over with quickly!
>
> I've heard it said, from a Police source commenting on an apparently
> generally accepted feeling there, that BMWs crash when people take
> their foot *off* the accelerator. When that happens, the electronics
> think the driver suddenly knows what he's doing, turns off and
> wahey..off into a field they go.. Don't know if that's true and I'm a
> bit reluctant to test it (away from a track) somehow. Anyhow, it'll be
> Bosch so the fanciness will be widespread among all sorts of
> cars..even Italian ones I suspect. The 156 used Bosch ABS IIRC.

That makes a lot of sense.

Many people use Bosch bits, but the program that runs the bits varies
between brands - our 'phase 2' 156 has stability control, but you really
wouldn't know about it, as it doesn't step in until you're well beyond
the capabilities of the average driver (and I know it isn't doing
anything, as my base comparison is a 'phase 1' car). The Prius, on the
other hand, kicks in very early, which makes quick getaways at junctions
a little hair raising.
--
SteveH

On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 11:36:51 +0000, Catman
> wrote:

>On 02/12/2010 21:59, Zathras wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:50:29 +0000, Catman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/12/2010 10:28, Zathras wrote:
>>
>>>> It's a very good idea but a look about the net suggests they might not
>>>> be available for my 18 inch 35 profile 255 tyres. :-(
>>>>
>>>
>>> Show off
>>
>> Hah..being run-flats, there is almost no change out of 300UKP *EACH*.
>> I bet you're *really* jealous now!! :-(
>
>Meh. I hope to be buying my 4200 in the next 12 months. I'll be in the
>same boat, cost wise AIUI.

At least *you'll* have something pretty to look at outside your house.

>> However, the lateral grip
>> they offer is on a different planet to the 205s on the 156.
>>
>
>Cool. Do they track as badly as mine do?

You'll need to tell me what you mean by tracking for me to answer
correctly. However, taking a guess at what you mean, no the tyres run
straight and true and the car isn't easily deflected from its course.
It could be just down to rear wheel drive though. I should say that
I'm using expensive, and soft, Michelins and the fronts are 225 where
the rears are 255.

>> I used to enjoy lift-off oversteer on roundabouts in the 156 in the
>> dry. I've never been able to (in similar conditions) break the rear
>> away in the Beemer (unless the road was slippy) and with narrower
>> tyres on the front it understeers a tiny bit when pushed beyond the
>> limit. That limit is way beyond the Alfas limit. I can see exactly why
>> reviewers said that the 156 was "more fun than some sports cars".
>>
>> Where the 156 was great fun, the Beemer is just terrifying. You come
>> away from hooligan manoeuvres thinking "how the hell did it do that
>> and how did I survive?". The Alfa's lower pace fun was much more
>> gentlemanly and relaxing. The Beemer is much more impressive but the
>> Alfa made me laugh when I drove it and the Beemer doesn't.
>>
>
>That's about the size of it really, isn't it.

Yep. I might also add that the Alfa was more reliable too. I've had to
replace the electric steering rack in the Beemer after it failed
completely when on the move. A pretty sobering experience. Apparently,
Minis are prone to a little fun with dodgy steering racks too.
Great..super..

Also, I'd forgotten that the BMW *does* make me laugh under a specific
set of embarrassing circumstances. When traveling very slowly over
rough ground the Beemer bucks and kicks so severely (because the body
control is so good the car follows every contour with Germanic
precision) that I think my head could fall off. Personally, I'll trade
that for the better body control however. Seriously..the comfort in
that case is so *unbelievably* bad that the only option is to laugh.
That laugh is like the one you'd use when laughing at a fine comedian
(like Billy Connolly many years ago). With the Alfa, I felt as though
I was laughing with it and not at it like in the Beemer.

I find it interesting how many people think a 3 series is really
uncomfortable! I've always thought that the more genuinely sporting a
car was, the less comfortable it had to be. Some better balanced
reviewers did point this out in reviews comparing BMWs to Alfas when I
was looking at those reviews before getting the 156.

I really miss Alfa seats though. Alfa do know a thing or two about bum
comfort.

How about this for a balanced opinion, I've have a 3 Series for the
sheer performance, handling and mechanical competence and an Alfa for
just about everything else..

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

Zathras spoke:
> > So what shall we talk about instead
>
> Why do people's brains self destruct when faced with a wee bit of
> snow?..

Aye! - When I were a lad, we used to go to Aviemore for new year
(before it became a slum, of course) and almost every year the
traffic reports said the A9 was closed north of Killiecrankie - I
just drove past the road closed signs and went my merry way - in an
SO VW beetle[1], an aged Viva[2], and a Morris 1300 GT[3]

[1]The beetle was the oldest yet the only car in our posse of 3
which started at the end of the holiday

[2]The neck of the radiator burst in the cold, and we drove home
continually de-icing the inside of the windscreen until past the
Lakes.

[3] This one had a comedy throttle cable which would stick at the
most opportune moments - usually Wide ****ing Open!

--
Rob Pearson
156 1.9jtd sportwagon (now)
164 V6 Lusso (gone)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:43:41 -0000, R C Nesbit > wrote:

>VW beetle[1], an aged Viva[2], and a Morris 1300 GT[3]

Good grief. All that's needed now is a cool dude in a rusty Sud.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:28:11 +0000, Zathras
> wrote:

>It's a very good idea but a look about the net suggests they might not
>be available for my 18 inch 35 profile 255 tyres. :-(

So that was utter ******** then..

http://www.snowchains.co.uk/main/weisssock.htm

Chap at the work found the above but they don't do ones for his Honda
Accord!

For those with an evil mind, that company have employed a woman and a
159 estate for their demo videos. These are hilarious for the "here's
one I made earlier" edits every time it looks like she's heading for a
delay or trouble..


--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

On Sat, 4 Dec 2010 13:56:19 +0000, (SteveH)
wrote:

>My experience of modern stability programs is that they will be doing
>all kinds of clever stuff before you feel them kick in.

The Beemer seems, surprisingly, a bit slow-witted compared to an old
156 JTS I drove a while back.

>Turning it off on my Passat TDI turned it from a pretty competent drive
>into something which wanted to understeer off the road all the time -
>and torque steer was something else.

Torque steer? Whassat? ;-)

>I don't doubt that the BMW has a lot more grip - but it'll feel like it
>has more than it really does, IYSWIM.

Ye canna escape the laws o' Physics, Cap'n. It says so in my BMW
owners manual!!!! 8-|

>I think the biggest thing is that the 156 was developed from the 155,
>which was developed from the Tipo, so we're talking about a 30 year old
>basic design, vs something designed 20 years later.

True but I don't *think* the chassis heritage was the problem because
I always felt that the 156 had a pretty good underlying 'chassis'.
Alfa just don't have an clue about 'body control' for UK roads (even
in their newer cars). This is more related to choice and setup of the
suspension. I don't know if they had it sussed years ago and it's
become a lost art there..

>> Note that when I say "competent sporting", this is not as comfortable
>> as the Alfa but it is capable of speeds over lumpy UK roads that Alfa
>> could do really well to investigate. The body control (in a sporting
>> sense) is night and day from a 156. IME, the underside never grounds
>> and is never likely to even when tested on roads that the Alfa
>> *really* struggled with. Ok the Alfa may have been fractionally lower,
>> but it was lighter and had a lighter engine.
>
>I found the BMW was harsh and 'rubbery'.

I feel that that's a necessary evil if you want a car that will travel
fast over British roads these days. It does seem to upset a number of
people though.

>Provided very little feedback or involvement

Yes. However, when I first got the 156 I felt the same thing about it.
The steering in the 156 felt dead when I came to it from a Vauxhall
Astra!! I think electric racks with variable assistance make steering
feel worse again. After getting used to it over time, I do feel that I
can tell what my current car's doing. And that was also the same for
the 156. I do feel that I'm striving to feel steering life in
something that's near clinically dead though. Beats me how anyone
(journos and salesmen) can say otherwise.

> - which was a disappointment, given the 'ultimate driving
>machine' tag.

Careful now..you're falling for marketing speak and the word of
motoring journos whos only desire is to drive the latest 'M' cars or
other BMW exotica. In addition to that, how many motoring journos are
even competent?

>> I'm not saying that the Beemer is preferable or more enjoyable than an
>> Alfa (and wouldn't dare recommend one here) but in the handling and
>> grip it is 'technically' quite a bit better IYSWIM. At least the grip
>> part is measurable so isn't an opinion though I can't remember where I
>> got the figures from.
>
>A lot of magazines tend to confuse handling with grip - cars with silly
>amounts of grip are held up as examples of great handling cars.

Grip allows speed. Perhaps some simpletons are thinking that control
at that higher speed means 'better' handling. I'm with you on this one
though..they're separate issues.

>I don't subscribe to this - my 75 has pretty low limits compared with
>modern cars, but the handling is quite amazing.

That's why I think (and said) the 156 is more 'fun' than my car. The
MX-5 is another car that has deliberately not maximised grip but seems
to be generally pleasing to drive.

>Best example I've had was my Nissan Primera - it had silly amounts of
>grip for a 'cooking' example of a family saloon, and everyone raved
>about the 'handling' - I found it inert, lacking in feedback, and I
>eventually got rid when I realised that the first time I overstepped the
>limit in it, I'd be going very quickly and have a very big accident.

That's how I feel in the Beemer..except that the 3 litre engine can
have you at stupid speeds very quickly. It demands a lot more respect
than the Alfa did or you're going bye bye.

>Many people use Bosch bits, but the program that runs the bits varies
>between brands - our 'phase 2' 156 has stability control, but you really
>wouldn't know about it, as it doesn't step in until you're well beyond
>the capabilities of the average driver (and I know it isn't doing
>anything, as my base comparison is a 'phase 1' car). The Prius, on the
>other hand, kicks in very early, which makes quick getaways at junctions
>a little hair raising.

I guess car manufacturers buy standard Bosch parts which they can
tweak to suit their own requirements.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

On 05/12/2010 11:42, Zathras wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:43:41 -0000, R C > wrote:
>
>> VW beetle[1], an aged Viva[2], and a Morris 1300 GT[3]
>
> Good grief. All that's needed now is a cool dude in a rusty Sud.
>

I might volunteer

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On 03/12/2010 13:03, GT wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 02/12/2010 21:59, Zathras wrote:
>>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:50:29 +0000, Catman
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/12/2010 10:28, Zathras wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's a very good idea but a look about the net suggests they might not
>>>>> be available for my 18 inch 35 profile 255 tyres. :-(
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Show off
>>>
>>> Hah..being run-flats, there is almost no change out of 300UKP *EACH*.
>>> I bet you're *really* jealous now!! :-(
>>
>> Meh. I hope to be buying my 4200 in the next 12 months. I'll be in the
>> same boat, cost wise AIUI.
>
> Maserati?
>
>

Yep. I *keep* trying.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On 04/12/2010 14:10, Zathras wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 11:36:51 +0000, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/2010 21:59, Zathras wrote:
>>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:50:29 +0000, Catman
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/12/2010 10:28, Zathras wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's a very good idea but a look about the net suggests they might not
>>>>> be available for my 18 inch 35 profile 255 tyres. :-(
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Show off
>>>
>>> Hah..being run-flats, there is almost no change out of 300UKP *EACH*.
>>> I bet you're *really* jealous now!! :-(
>>
>> Meh. I hope to be buying my 4200 in the next 12 months. I'll be in the
>> same boat, cost wise AIUI.
>
> At least *you'll* have something pretty to look at outside your house.

Good point. Well made.

The entertainment sub-comittee thinks it's nice as well.

>
>>> However, the lateral grip
>>> they offer is on a different planet to the 205s on the 156.
>>>
>>
>> Cool. Do they track as badly as mine do?
>
> You'll need to tell me what you mean by tracking for me to answer
> correctly. However, taking a guess at what you mean, no the tyres run
> straight and true and the car isn't easily deflected from its course.
> It could be just down to rear wheel drive though. I should say that
> I'm using expensive, and soft, Michelins and the fronts are 225 where
> the rears are 255.

I was talking about the habit of tracking each rut in the road. It seems
not, from your description.

<snip>
>>
>> That's about the size of it really, isn't it.
>
> Yep. I might also add that the Alfa was more reliable too. I've had to
> replace the electric steering rack in the Beemer after it failed
> completely when on the move. A pretty sobering experience. Apparently,
> Minis are prone to a little fun with dodgy steering racks too.
> Great..super..
>

Ouch.

<snip>
>
> How about this for a balanced opinion, I've have a 3 Series for the
> sheer performance, handling and mechanical competence and an Alfa for
> just about everything else..

Sounds fair. The badge would look horrid, though


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk