New Clutch -- direction

Just put in my engine, all is well as per the oil leak I was trying to
fix.
In reference to previous post:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...2a422289c7e8b7
Thanks Jim! I think I got it all right now. Leak is gone and play is
good.

My new problem is this, now that the engine is in, the clutch won't
release. I started messing with the wing-nut adjustment, but the
threads were a bit muffed up and I ended up breaking one of the wings.
So I went off in search of a new wing nut. I didn't find one.

That's not my problem, my problem is that as I was going around looking
I was thinking about this, and I don't think the problem is in my pedal
adjustment. The wing nut was fairly tight against the control arm.
There was no freeplay at the pedal. So if anything my clutch should
have been slipping when the pedal was released rather than catching
when it was depressed. Right? I mean if I tighten up that wing nut
enough the clutch will be fully released all the time. So if it was
plenty tight and my clutch was still catching with pedal to the floor,
then I have a different problem.

I'm going back to when I put the flywheel, then new clutch plate, then
the pressure plate all on the engine. I must be getting old because my
memory is not working so well anymore, and I couldn't remember which
way the clutch plate goes in. I got a new sachs plate and it looks
pretty much like the old one. The old one had a few springs in it in
the middle, not sure what they were for, but the new one doesn't have
any. Other than that they are the same. It's kind of weird that the
plate has the wear material on two sides, so it's not obvious which
side should sit against the pressure plate. I even wondered if it was
designed to be reversible giving a second wear life or something. Why
would they put the material on both sides? Anyway...

The plate is flat on one side, and the other has a "nose" or
protrusion. The nose has splines on the inside, meant to catch with
the splines on the shaft coming out of the transmission when the two
are mated. My big question is about that nose. Does it go inwards,
toward the engine and crankshaft, or outwards towards the transmission.
The haynes and bently manuals say nothing about it, and have no
pictures. The Muir book says put the nose frontward or outward. I'm
pretty sure FIF and Out is toward the transmission (toward me when I'm
doing it).

So I went with that and centered it and got everything in and all was
well. Except my clutch doesn't release well.

Which direction? Any other ideas if I did get that right?

Thanks!

Chronologic

First, I'm sorry about the triple post. I am using google groups and
it gave the message "can't do it, try again" three times. I won't do
that again.

After reading the section on Rob and Dave's I now know why there's wear
material on both sides. Because it wears on both sides! I am new at
this and I didn't realize the flywheel is also intended to be a wear
surface against the clutch.

I did not replace the throw-out. I considered it but as I added in
everything I need, well it just cost more than I have. So I got only
what I "really" need.

If I can't figure this out I'll try it eventually when I get more cash.

Chronologic

"Chronologic" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> First, I'm sorry about the triple post. I am using google groups and
> it gave the message "can't do it, try again" three times. I won't do
> that again.
>
> After reading the section on Rob and Dave's I now know why there's wear
> material on both sides. Because it wears on both sides! I am new at
> this and I didn't realize the flywheel is also intended to be a wear
> surface against the clutch.
>
> I did not replace the throw-out. I considered it but as I added in
> everything I need, well it just cost more than I have. So I got only
> what I "really" need.
>
> If I can't figure this out I'll try it eventually when I get more cash.
>
> Chronologic

Don't necessarily go by what I mentioned as I've only done a clutch job once
on a bug and am by no stretch of anyone's imagination a pro at bugs.
I am pretty sure the throwout bearing can causes issues with clutch release
if it doesn't work right so replacement is suggested when the clutch is
done.

Let's see if any of the wizzards here (speedy, Jan, etc) have other
suggestions.

Remco

> Don't necessarily go by what I mentioned as I've only done a clutch job once
> on a bug and am by no stretch of anyone's imagination a pro at bugs.
> I am pretty sure the throwout bearing can causes issues with clutch release
> if it doesn't work right so replacement is suggested when the clutch is
> done.
>
> Let's see if any of the wizzards here (speedy, Jan, etc) have other
> suggestions.
>
> Remco


Thanks Remco. Well, after thinking long and hard about this I decided
the problem MUST be inside. So against every desire I could possibly
harbor (except the desire to learn this stuff and grow along with my
bug) I pulled the bloody engine out again.

So this confirmed my suspicion, which was basically:

With the pressure plate bolts fully tightened, the clutch release
springs on the pressure plate are fully released already, yet the
actual clutch disc, sandwiched in between the flywheel and pressure
plate is still binding. So if I loosen up the pressure plate screws a
tad, the springs and the arms that are supposed to be actuated by the
throw out bearing (I have one with the three arms, but no collar) start
to relax and come back to where there is still play.

I assume if I put the engine back in with those bolts loose, the throw
out would be able to depress the release arms and the clutch would then
be able to spin freely again, releasing the lock between tranny and
engine.

So I don't know why the plate is doing that. It seems the new clutch
is too thick or something. But I can find no mention of there being
different thicknesses. I asked for a Type 1 clutch 200mm with a spring
dampner. It fits in just fine except this binding problem. I am
trying right now to research and see if I may be missing some spacing
washers that would go under the pressure plate between that and the
flywheel on the 6 pressure plate mounting bolts. That would allow me
to torque down the bolts and yet still leave some room for the springs
to release the pressure plate a bit. There weren't any when I pulled
it off I'm pretty sure but that doesn't mean the prev. mechanic didn't
skip them.

So I don't know if there are supposed to be spacers or if something
else is wrong but I at least know that as long as those arms don't have
any spring left in them they aren't going to be able to lift the
pressure plate and free up the clutch.

So maybe this new information will spread some ideas.

Thanks,

Chronologic

Hmmm, I finally found another thread that seems like the same problem.
This guy put in a brand new clutch disk and by default it seems "too
thick".

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e0872e6ee4a19b

The only "answer" that was really posted here was that you have to
"wear" down the clutch a little in a new install. Put the e brake on
and try to slip the disk a while.

Surely that's not REALLY a good idea? I mean, we're talking a lot of
heat, risk of taking off unexpectedly, etc..... I would find it hard
to believe that a new disc comes inappropriately sized and needing to
be worn down this way.

What you think?

Chronologic

I don't mean to post like crazy on my own topic, but look at this:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...1a55d01874bbd8

The next thing that happened to this guy ( a few weeks later ) was that
the springs blew out on the release arms (I don't know what to call
those 3 spring loaded arms).

Maybe "this guy" lamprey is out there. If so and you finally figured
this out....

Anyway, I am not surprised, because the action he took was to tighten
the clutch cable really really tight to get the release he needed.
Easy to say in retrospect but I'm certainly glad I found this out now
due to his unfortunate ending.

I need to figure out why this thing is so tight.... and fix it at the
source.

I hope this thread will benefit others.

Thanks,

Chronologic

OK one more post for tonight. Several mentions are made both here, in
the Muir book, and elsewhere I've read about some clips that have to be
removed from the pressure plate arms.

The deal is, I pulled this pressure plate out of a RUNNING, WORKING
vehicle. I then installed the same pressure plate into my 72 super.
Everything works fine (engine was out of a 67 or 68 but it works fine
and doesn't seem to have any of the mis-matched problems that are
documented). I used that for awhile and drove the car around for a few
months here and there. This was 10+ years ago. I then decided that I
had to fix the "little" leak I had. I went to my grandpa, who was a
mechanic of 80 years (and has now passed away) and asked him what he
thought caused the leak. This was before the internet and all I had
was bentley, vwtrends, hotvws, and a few locals to go on. He said it
was the rear main seal. I tried 3 times to fix this seal. The last
time I tried this aftermarket thing that makes your flywheel "smooth"
again, thinking maybe there were burrs or a distortion. That thing did
have one result: My engine became an oil pump. So I had enough of
this. I was ready to start college and I didn't have time, but I
still wanted the bug so I talked my mom into storing it for me. So
here I am. I finally know why I couldn't get the oil leak fixed. Back
then my only real source was Bentley, and Bentley says to put the new
seal in FLUSH. THIS IS WRONG. It should go all the way in.

Anyway, my point is everything inside was working fine. Only I got oil
all over the components so I just cleaned up most of it and got a new
clutch. I put it all back in and now the plate seems funny. The
clutch will not disengage. The starter will move the car with the
clutch all the way in (if in gear).

There ARE some clips on there. If those aren't supposed to be there,
they have been there for longer than I've owned it. There is one for
each arm, and each one goes over the arm. There are little catch holes
on each side, then it winds around the outside of the pin that the arm
rotates on, across the arm, around the other side of the pin and into
another hole. I hope these are not the clips that are supposed to be
removed. Would it make any difference? Would removing these loosen
things up???

I love this car. I just want to learn EVERYTHING about it. It's going
to be a little slow that's all.

Chronologic

What year was the RUNNING, WORKING vehicle??

You mention putting it in a 72 but you took it out of a 67 or 68?

Two different style pressure plates here. Up to 70, the pressure plate has a ring on it to center
the throw out bearing because the trans input shaft does not have a guide tube on it.
71 up has no ring on the fingers.

This ad shows the 70 and back ring type:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie....php?id=215480
Is this what you installed? [the ad mentions early and late, that means ring or no ring]


"Chronologic" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> OK one more post for tonight. Several mentions are made both here, in
> the Muir book, and elsewhere I've read about some clips that have to be
> removed from the pressure plate arms.
>
> The deal is, I pulled this pressure plate out of a RUNNING, WORKING
> vehicle. I then installed the same pressure plate into my 72 super.
> Everything works fine (engine was out of a 67 or 68 but it works fine
> and doesn't seem to have any of the mis-matched problems that are
> documented). I used that for awhile and drove the car around for a few
> months here and there. This was 10+ years ago. I then decided that I
> had to fix the "little" leak I had. I went to my grandpa, who was a
> mechanic of 80 years (and has now passed away) and asked him what he
> thought caused the leak. This was before the internet and all I had
> was bentley, vwtrends, hotvws, and a few locals to go on. He said it
> was the rear main seal. I tried 3 times to fix this seal. The last
> time I tried this aftermarket thing that makes your flywheel "smooth"
> again, thinking maybe there were burrs or a distortion. That thing did
> have one result: My engine became an oil pump. So I had enough of
> this. I was ready to start college and I didn't have time, but I
> still wanted the bug so I talked my mom into storing it for me. So
> here I am. I finally know why I couldn't get the oil leak fixed. Back
> then my only real source was Bentley, and Bentley says to put the new
> seal in FLUSH. THIS IS WRONG. It should go all the way in.
>
> Anyway, my point is everything inside was working fine. Only I got oil
> all over the components so I just cleaned up most of it and got a new
> clutch. I put it all back in and now the plate seems funny. The
> clutch will not disengage. The starter will move the car with the
> clutch all the way in (if in gear).
>
> There ARE some clips on there. If those aren't supposed to be there,
> they have been there for longer than I've owned it. There is one for
> each arm, and each one goes over the arm. There are little catch holes
> on each side, then it winds around the outside of the pin that the arm
> rotates on, across the arm, around the other side of the pin and into
> another hole. I hope these are not the clips that are supposed to be
> removed. Would it make any difference? Would removing these loosen
> things up???
>
> I love this car. I just want to learn EVERYTHING about it. It's going
> to be a little slow that's all.
>
> Chronologic
>

My pressure plate has no ring. It was installed and working with only
a different wearable clutch disc. I only got a new disc, everything
else is the same.

I am not completely sure the clutch parts came from the older engine,
they may have been from the newer. I THINK they came from the older
one but I do know there is no ring.

My setup appears to be exactly like sequence 13, 14, 15, 16 on this
page:

http://www.1800vw.bizhosting.com/0.clutch.htm

Everything looks normal and was working before I got a new disc (13).
It's just like the new disc is "too thick".

Now that I found that picture I'm pretty sure I have it together ok.
I'm not sure if those clips I mentioned are supposed to be there or if
they have been in the engine for ~20?+ years and they were not supposed
to be. I will try to post a picture of my clutch with an arrow
pointing at the clips to clarify. I have been assuming they should be
there and the clips that are supposed to be removed from a new one are
not those, since it isn't new!

I think the only thing I can do is go get some small shallow spacer
washers to lift the pressure plate away from the flywheel slightly. It
is already raised a tad due to the indentation of the area around the
bolt holes. I'll just raise it a little more with washers and torque
it down again. I can't think of anything else to do. Once those
bolts are tight to 18 ft/lbs there had better be some play in the
release arms. Logically and mechanically that HAS to be so. As long
as the assy still fits in the bell housing and the throw-out has some
space everything should be ok I think.

I'll let everyone know. It probably seems like I'm a magnet for
problems right? Sometimes I wonder myself.

Thanks for all the help. You are all very kind and it's much
appreciated.

Chronologic

"Chronologic" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I think the only thing I can do is go get some small shallow spacer
> washers to lift the pressure plate away from the flywheel slightly. It
> is already raised a tad due to the indentation of the area around the
> bolt holes. I'll just raise it a little more with washers and torque
> it down again. I can't think of anything else to do. Once those
> bolts are tight to 18 ft/lbs there had better be some play in the
> release arms. Logically and mechanically that HAS to be so. As long
> as the assy still fits in the bell housing and the throw-out has some
> space everything should be ok I think.
>

you do not want to do the above.....you should *NOT* have "play" in the
"fingers" when the pressure plate is torqued down...you also should NOT be
able to move those fingers by hand when the pressure plate is torqued
down...if you *can*(like after adding spacers) you will have clutch slip if
the car moves at all...