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#11
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"Alfistagj" > wrote in message news:<TkQSc.5453$vH5.329@amstwist00>...
> Reading all the posts back (including my own): Isn't the best way out of > this discussion to just see to it that all 4 tyres are 100% o.k. (that's > over 4mm profile depth) Yes, that's kinda clear. If you can, have the best everywhere...but in practice you know how it goes... Spend good dosh on a set of 4 new tyres. Then the front ones go real fast Then you pick up a nail on the sidewall on one of the fronts. Then you go, "Phew, at least the were almost gone". Then you decide to buy 2 new tyres (cause the rears are still pretty good) Now you scratch your head wondering, do these go front or rear?!! The problem is compounded by the fact that I find tyre rotation a pain...especially in a car as sensitive as an Alfa...a seemingly innocent rotation to achieve uniform wear can unsettle the car's great handling and have you go round in circles wondering what's caused it... So now I don't rotate anymore... Guess the solution is more dosh (4 new tyres) or live with a compromise! Ouch. BC |
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#12
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Buzzardous Cross wrote:
> a. in daily driving, your need for traction/grip is greatest when you > have to slam your brakes in an emergency - and that requires most grip > in the front...otherwise you'll have less braking force before your > ABS kicks in Try thinking this way: The lesser grip, the sooner the wheel will lose traction and lock up if you apply the brake (forget about ABS for the moment*). You, being an Alfa driver, I feel confident that you have more than once tried braking late and having the front wheels locks. It squeels a bit, but no major panic as the car continues to drive straight and as soon as the wheels start turning again you can continue steering.. On the other hand, if you jam on the handbrake and lock the rear wheels, the car will start spinning and you will have your hands full trying to counter the movement.. Since a front wheel lock up is way easier to control than a rear wheel lock up, you should always make sure that the front wheels lock before the rear wheels let go. Actually all cars are fitted with a system that reduces the brake pressure to the rear wheels for exactly that reason. This also means that you should always fit the best tires to the rear wheels, to assure that they are the last to lose grip.. * How about the ABS then, a modern car doesn't lock any wheels? Well, true on the braking part, but when turning, the ABS doesn't help you if the rear end breaks and it will break very fast if the rear wheels lack decent rubber.. > b. it's harder to correct a front wheel skid than a rear wheel skid => You are wrong on that. Even if you, as I, like oversteering better than understeering, slobby tyres on the rear wheels give you crash oversteering and a very fine and razorsharp edge.. -- Hygge.. Thomas <http://www.carftp.com> - a library of car videos. |
#13
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Thomas Strandtoft wrote:
> Buzzardous Cross wrote: > >> a. in daily driving, your need for traction/grip is greatest when you >> have to slam your brakes in an emergency - and that requires most grip >> in the front...otherwise you'll have less braking force before your >> ABS kicks in > > Try thinking this way: > > The lesser grip, the sooner the wheel will lose traction and lock > up if you apply the brake (forget about ABS for the moment*). You, > being an Alfa driver, I feel confident that you have more than > once tried braking late and having the front wheels locks. It > squeels a bit, but no major panic as the car continues to drive > straight and as soon as the wheels start turning again you can > continue steering.. On the other hand, if you jam on the handbrake > and lock the rear wheels, the car will start spinning and you will > have your hands full trying to counter the movement.. I remember the first time I tried that. In a straight line, they just lock up, and you carry on in a straight line. Of course, this all changes if you do it while turning, which is fun in an empty car park on snow However, in real world situations I do agree that oversteer from front wheels loosing traction is much easier to control than the rear breaking away. Why that is, I wouldn't like to say, but it's my experience, such as it is. > Since a front wheel lock up is way easier to control than a rear > wheel lock up, you should always make sure that the front wheels > lock before the rear wheels let go. Actually all cars are fitted > with a system that reduces the brake pressure to the rear wheels > for exactly that reason. Not sure about that, old chap. I understood that the reason that front brakes are more powerful than rears was simply because when you brake, the weight of your vehicle shifts forwards, reducing the donwforce on the rear wheels. You learn about this in a hurry when biking. There is simply no point in having more powerful brakes on the rear since they will always lock before the fronts (in a straight line of course) However, I may have misunderstood / not explained very well. But I do have an excuse for the latter: It's my birthday and I'm rather well down this rather good bottle of wine -- Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3 Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply) Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk |
#14
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:54:27 +0100, Tom Boltwood >
wrote: <Snip> >For me, the >understeer on the front with bad tyres makes driving more difficult and >dangerous. Understeer? What's that then? Bad tyres on an Alfa is a waste..surely?! > Also, if the front wheels are the only wheels you have control >over, Hmmm..bad tyres are bad no matter where you put them. I seem to be able to control quite a bit of my car via my rear tyres. There's always the handbrake (rarely used and unsubtle) or, particularly in cornering, you can use the accelerator and brakes to alter the balance of the car by 'moving the weight' on the back so discouraging or encouraging the rear to drift, or for that matter the front. > I'd rather the grip was on them. ! >It seems to be something people are fairly divided on, although most agree >with the 'correct' theory which is good tyres on the back. I, however, >disagree. I'm with the majority on this one. Of utmost importance when driving a road car on the road is safety and predictability. In a disaster, when you've (temporarily?) lost control, there can be nobody out there that seriously suggests that Joe Average has a car setup that oversteers rather than understeers! Most typical drivers cannot correct oversteer properly..most typical drivers are 'used' to understeer however. The link between over and under steer and tyres is well explained elsewhere. Car control experts may choose an alternate setup to the majority opinion but it is for the few not the many. YMMV -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#15
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Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the front
wheels!! "Zathras" > wrote in message news > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:54:27 +0100, Tom Boltwood > > wrote: > > <Snip> > >For me, the > >understeer on the front with bad tyres makes driving more difficult and > >dangerous. > > Understeer? What's that then? Bad tyres on an Alfa is a > waste..surely?! > > > Also, if the front wheels are the only wheels you have control > >over, > > Hmmm..bad tyres are bad no matter where you put them. > > I seem to be able to control quite a bit of my car via my rear tyres. > There's always the handbrake (rarely used and unsubtle) or, > particularly in cornering, you can use the accelerator and brakes to > alter the balance of the car by 'moving the weight' on the back so > discouraging or encouraging the rear to drift, or for that matter the > front. > > > I'd rather the grip was on them. > > ! > > >It seems to be something people are fairly divided on, although most agree > >with the 'correct' theory which is good tyres on the back. I, however, > >disagree. > > I'm with the majority on this one. Of utmost importance when driving a > road car on the road is safety and predictability. In a disaster, when > you've (temporarily?) lost control, there can be nobody out there that > seriously suggests that Joe Average has a car setup that oversteers > rather than understeers! Most typical drivers cannot correct oversteer > properly..most typical drivers are 'used' to understeer however. The > link between over and under steer and tyres is well explained > elsewhere. > > Car control experts may choose an alternate setup to the majority > opinion but it is for the few not the many. > > YMMV > > -- > Z > Scotland > Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather > 'Oil' be seeing you.. > (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#16
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"Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht ... > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the front > wheels!! > Gareth, Never sell your 156. It's unique and will make a lot of money! You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of! -- Ciao from Holland AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000) Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) |
#17
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I don't think it will make much money when I sell it (not planning to!) - as
far as I know, they all work this way! Maybe its a UK thing, or perhaps a 2002+ thing? I have the 2002 156 2.0JTS. Its the old exterior and new interior (best mix I think) if that helps. Also when you pull on the handbrake at any speed at all (even a crawl) the on-board computer beeps loudly and says "oil pressure low or handbrake on" The handbrake on my father's Citroen Xantia also acts on the front wheels. These are the only two models of car I have ever encountered with this brake system. "Alfistagj" > wrote in message news:K56Uc.5781$vH5.4189@amstwist00... > > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht > ... > > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the front > > wheels!! > > > > Gareth, > Never sell your 156. > It's unique and will make a lot of money! > You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of! > -- > Ciao from Holland > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000) > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) > > > |
#18
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Gareth,
Don't mean to offend you, but ALL 147/156/166 HAVE THE HAND BRAKE ON THE REAR operated with a lever between the FRONT seats ;-) Don't tell me you are "contaminated" with German arrogance believing UK Alfa's are specially made with front wheel hand brakes for the UK market!! The warning light is a combined one for low brake fluid level as well as a "pulled" hand brake. Another warning light with almost the same symbol indicates worn (front only) brake pads. Has nothing to do with front or rear. If you have an official owners manual, just look at one of the last pages under the "brake specifications". -- Ciao from Holland AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000) Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht ... > I don't think it will make much money when I sell it (not planning to!) - as > far as I know, they all work this way! Maybe its a UK thing, or perhaps a > 2002+ thing? > > I have the 2002 156 2.0JTS. Its the old exterior and new interior (best mix > I think) if that helps. Also when you pull on the handbrake at any speed at > all (even a crawl) the on-board computer beeps loudly and says "oil pressure > low or handbrake on" > > The handbrake on my father's Citroen Xantia also acts on the front wheels. > > These are the only two models of car I have ever encountered with this brake > system. > > > "Alfistagj" > wrote in message > news:K56Uc.5781$vH5.4189@amstwist00... > > > > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht > > ... > > > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the > front > > > wheels!! > > > > > > > Gareth, > > Never sell your 156. > > It's unique and will make a lot of money! > > You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of! > > -- > > Ciao from Holland > > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) > > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000) > > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) > > > > > > > > |
#19
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Don't need to check the manual - just pull the handbrake on in gravel -
front wheels lock, rear wheels don't. You are correct lever positioning tho! "Alfistagj" > wrote in message news:4QKUc.5968$vH5.5434@amstwist00... > Gareth, > Don't mean to offend you, but ALL 147/156/166 HAVE THE HAND BRAKE ON THE > REAR operated with a lever between the FRONT seats ;-) > Don't tell me you are "contaminated" with German arrogance believing UK > Alfa's are specially made with front wheel hand brakes for the UK market!! > The warning light is a combined one for low brake fluid level as well as a > "pulled" hand brake. Another warning light with almost the same symbol > indicates worn (front only) brake pads. > Has nothing to do with front or rear. > If you have an official owners manual, just look at one of the last pages > under the "brake specifications". > -- > Ciao from Holland > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000) > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) > > > > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht > ... > > I don't think it will make much money when I sell it (not planning to!) - > as > > far as I know, they all work this way! Maybe its a UK thing, or perhaps a > > 2002+ thing? > > > > I have the 2002 156 2.0JTS. Its the old exterior and new interior (best > mix > > I think) if that helps. Also when you pull on the handbrake at any speed > at > > all (even a crawl) the on-board computer beeps loudly and says "oil > pressure > > low or handbrake on" > > > > The handbrake on my father's Citroen Xantia also acts on the front wheels. > > > > These are the only two models of car I have ever encountered with this > brake > > system. > > > > > > "Alfistagj" > wrote in message > > news:K56Uc.5781$vH5.4189@amstwist00... > > > > > > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht > > > ... > > > > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the > > front > > > > wheels!! > > > > > > > > > > Gareth, > > > Never sell your 156. > > > It's unique and will make a lot of money! > > > You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of! > > > -- > > > Ciao from Holland > > > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) > > > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000) > > > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
#20
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I must apologise to you - the manual definitely says the handbrake applies
to the rear wheels. However, I know mine applies to the front wheels... I thought it was strange when I bought the car, but I was not too surprised because the Citroen Xantia has the same setup, so I thought nothing more of it. I mentioned it to a mechanic friend of mine and he was surprised, but confirmed that the handbrake is acting on the front wheels. He told me about another unusual braking system that Alfa tried a number of years ago - forgive me if I get this wrong, but I believe they tried a braking system acting directly on the drive shaft, or was it the axel, I forget (I am not very mechanically minded!), but it wasn't on the wheels! The reason I noticed the anomoly with my car was when I parked my car on a friends driveway (slight slope), then came out later to find my car had run down the drive onto the flat area of the road - front brake discs heat up when driving, I apply the handbrake, then discs cool down, contract and come away from the wheels. No damage was done, but I always park in gear now!! I will enquire about this at the garage, the next time I am in - I had never read that section of the manual before, but the handbrake works OK (except when I don't apply it hard enough). I'll post something about this in a couple of months, when the car gets serviced. "Alfistagj" > wrote in message news:4QKUc.5968$vH5.5434@amstwist00... > Gareth, > Don't mean to offend you, but ALL 147/156/166 HAVE THE HAND BRAKE ON THE > REAR operated with a lever between the FRONT seats ;-) > Don't tell me you are "contaminated" with German arrogance believing UK > Alfa's are specially made with front wheel hand brakes for the UK market!! > The warning light is a combined one for low brake fluid level as well as a > "pulled" hand brake. Another warning light with almost the same symbol > indicates worn (front only) brake pads. > Has nothing to do with front or rear. > If you have an official owners manual, just look at one of the last pages > under the "brake specifications". > -- > Ciao from Holland > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000) > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) > > > > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht > ... > > I don't think it will make much money when I sell it (not planning to!) - > as > > far as I know, they all work this way! Maybe its a UK thing, or perhaps a > > 2002+ thing? > > > > I have the 2002 156 2.0JTS. Its the old exterior and new interior (best > mix > > I think) if that helps. Also when you pull on the handbrake at any speed > at > > all (even a crawl) the on-board computer beeps loudly and says "oil > pressure > > low or handbrake on" > > > > The handbrake on my father's Citroen Xantia also acts on the front wheels. > > > > These are the only two models of car I have ever encountered with this > brake > > system. > > > > > > "Alfistagj" > wrote in message > > news:K56Uc.5781$vH5.4189@amstwist00... > > > > > > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht > > > ... > > > > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the > > front > > > > wheels!! > > > > > > > > > > Gareth, > > > Never sell your 156. > > > It's unique and will make a lot of money! > > > You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of! > > > -- > > > Ciao from Holland > > > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) > > > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000) > > > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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