73 Spider - SPICA

The engine runs rich and back fires on deceleration. Someone said that
it had to be tuned to run rich so that it would start cold. I was
wondering if this might be the Thermostatic Actuator? Now for more
questions:
1. What does this actuator do?
2. Where the heck is it? I've looked at the engine and the two books
that I have. The books don't even mention it.
3.Since it rarely gets that cold here in Texas, I was wondering if I
could lean it out a little...if so, how?

Thanks.

W Roberts
San Antonio, TX

~Zaitsev wrote:

> The engine runs rich and back fires on deceleration. Someone said that
> it had to be tuned to run rich so that it would start cold. I was
> wondering if this might be the Thermostatic Actuator? Now for more
> questions:
> 1. What does this actuator do?

Makes the engine run rich when cold, so it starts.

> 2. Where the heck is it? I've looked at the engine and the two books
> that I have. The books don't even mention it.
> 3.Since it rarely gets that cold here in Texas, I was wondering if I
> could lean it out a little...if so, how?

There was a thread about this not so long ago. I can't remeber the details
OTTOMH but if you search groups.google.com you may well find the answer.
ISTR the poster of the answers was 0_Qed or Dr. Entropy
HTH
>

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 155 TS 75 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

THE source for Spica in the USA http://www.wesingram.com/
Give Wes a call.
Yes, it's likely to be the TA.
On the Alfa Montreal website www.alfamontreal.info there is a lot of info;
be it for the 8 cylinder version, but the TA will be the same.
--
Ciao from Holland
AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
Now:
Rosso Radicofani GT 2.0JTS (2005)
Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
And former owner of:
156SW / 2 155's / 75 / Giulietta / 2 33's /
3 Sud's / Alfetta GT / Montreal / 2000GTV /
1300GTJ / 2 Giulia Super's

"~Zaitsev" > schreef in bericht
...
> The engine runs rich and back fires on deceleration. Someone said that
> it had to be tuned to run rich so that it would start cold. I was
> wondering if this might be the Thermostatic Actuator? Now for more
> questions:
> 1. What does this actuator do?
> 2. Where the heck is it? I've looked at the engine and the two books
> that I have. The books don't even mention it.
> 3.Since it rarely gets that cold here in Texas, I was wondering if I
> could lean it out a little...if so, how?
>
> Thanks.
>
> W Roberts
> San Antonio, TX

In article >,
Catman > wrote:

> ~Zaitsev wrote:
>
> > The engine runs rich and back fires on deceleration. Someone said that
> > it had to be tuned to run rich so that it would start cold. I was
> > wondering if this might be the Thermostatic Actuator? Now for more
> > questions:
> > 1. What does this actuator do?
>
> Makes the engine run rich when cold, so it starts.
>
> > 2. Where the heck is it? I've looked at the engine and the two books
> > that I have. The books don't even mention it.
> > 3.Since it rarely gets that cold here in Texas, I was wondering if I
> > could lean it out a little...if so, how?
>
> There was a thread about this not so long ago. I can't remeber the details
> OTTOMH but if you search groups.google.com you may well find the answer.
> ISTR the poster of the answers was 0_Qed or Dr. Entropy
> HTH
> >

Did Alfa ever sell any Montreals in Europe with Carbs? Or did they all
use SPICA?

--
George Graves
------------------
A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination.

George Graves wrote:

> In article >,
> Catman > wrote:
>
>> ~Zaitsev wrote:
>>
>> > The engine runs rich and back fires on deceleration. Someone said that
>> > it had to be tuned to run rich so that it would start cold. I was
>> > wondering if this might be the Thermostatic Actuator? Now for more
>> > questions:
>> > 1. What does this actuator do?
>>
>> Makes the engine run rich when cold, so it starts.
>>
>> > 2. Where the heck is it? I've looked at the engine and the two books
>> > that I have. The books don't even mention it.
>> > 3.Since it rarely gets that cold here in Texas, I was wondering if I
>> > could lean it out a little...if so, how?
>>
>> There was a thread about this not so long ago. I can't remeber the
>> details OTTOMH but if you search groups.google.com you may well find the
>> answer. ISTR the poster of the answers was 0_Qed or Dr. Entropy
>> HTH
>> >
>
> Did Alfa ever sell any Montreals in Europe with Carbs? Or did they all
> use SPICA?
>
Sticking my neck out here, I suspect they were all SPICA simply because AIUI
that engine was pretty much lifted from the old F1 cars. Again AIUI they
ran on SPICA so.......

I could be talking utter balls, though.
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 155 TS 75 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"George Graves" > schreef in bericht
...
>
> Did Alfa ever sell any Montreals in Europe with Carbs? Or did they all
> use SPICA?
>
> --
> George Graves

George,
All Monti's have the Spica mechanical fuel injection.
Some however have been converted to carbs as well as electronical injection.
Within the Monti community we are presently discussing a standard conversion
kit to carbs/el.injection as the Spica repair and maintenance is getting
more and more difficult due to the unavailability of spares. Now still a few
donor pumps available, but in a few years.....
On the other hand the "real" owners would like to stick to the original
configuration; the Spica is a FANTASTIC fuel injection system, but quite
sensitive to regular maintenance. The mechanical pump is lubricated by the
engine oil, but when the injector bodies in the pump wear, fuel leaks into
the lube oil circuit. Once the oil is deluted enough, the lubrication gets
BAD and the pump fails mechanically. Other problem is that the pump parts
are very tightly tolerated, so even the smallest dirt parts in the (engine)
oil damage the pump internal. The Spica has it's own lube oil filter that is
often forgotten when the oil is changed.
If you just renew oil and filters every year / 5000km no problem at all.
Special investment would be the special throttle bodies as the carbs of the
33 boxer engine (twin vertical Weber and Solex carbs) are readily available
from the scarpyards. With a dozen or so Monti owners, the initial investment
can be split!
--
Ciao from Holland
AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
Now:
Rosso Radicofani GT 2.0JTS (2005)
Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
And former owner of:
156SW / 2 155's / 75 / Giulietta / 2 33's /
3 Sud's / Alfetta GT / Montreal / 2000GTV /
1300GTJ / 2 Giulia Super's

In article >,
"alfistagj" > wrote:

> "George Graves" > schreef in bericht
> ...
> >
> > Did Alfa ever sell any Montreals in Europe with Carbs? Or did they all
> > use SPICA?
> >
> > --
> > George Graves
>
> George,
> All Monti's have the Spica mechanical fuel injection.
> Some however have been converted to carbs as well as electronical injection.
> Within the Monti community we are presently discussing a standard conversion
> kit to carbs/el.injection as the Spica repair and maintenance is getting
> more and more difficult due to the unavailability of spares. Now still a few
> donor pumps available, but in a few years.....
> On the other hand the "real" owners would like to stick to the original
> configuration; the Spica is a FANTASTIC fuel injection system, but quite
> sensitive to regular maintenance.

I agree. After all, I think if you look into it you'll find that NOBODY
sold more mechanical injection systems than did Alfa/SPICA. It does work
well. But like you say, it's reliability is maintenance dependent and
spares are getting sparse. Here in the USA we have a guy in Seattle
Washington named Wes Ingram who rebuilds SPICA FI equipment. I believe
that he has parts manufactured to replace the worn ones.

--
George Graves
------------------
A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination.

Catman wrote:
> ~Zaitsev wrote:

Apologies for the "out-of-order' thot process to 'follow' .

.................
> > The engine runs rich and back fires on deceleration. Someone said that
> > it had to be tuned to run rich so that it would start cold. I was
> > wondering if this might be the Thermostatic Actuator? Now for more
> > questions:
> > 1. What does this actuator do?
> Makes the engine run rich when cold, so it starts.

:-)
.... and the "device" "should" lean out the F/A mix when the engine gets
to 'temp' ...
"which" then suggests a test of the engine/radiator thermostat ...
=assuming= the Spica "device" is in good working order.

I'm not 'sure' that there is any proper "tuning" to a rich F/A mix ,
other than the stock, factory supplied thermo actuator ...
which may/may_not have had factory-supplied shim_pack adjustment.

Back-fire, at proper engine temp, with manifolded, per-port injection,
is usually a leaky, per_port , fuel injector ... as with a diesel.

Bosch spritz_and_pray is a different 'beasty' ... more causes of
backfire.
Cheaper & less 'exact'.

Spica IS/was the best FI system 'going' ...
just a bit expensive to provide/maintain, is all.

Then too, as with diesels ,
the 'pump' needs to be properly timed to the 4_stroke envelope.
If poorly timed,
this mite leave a bit of fuel ,
to be "ingested" at the next exhaust stroke.
I never 'fooled' much with this 'aspect' ... 'some', but with no clear
results.

I ?believe? this thermo actuator is the rearmost gizmo on the Spica pump
....
attached w/ two(2) small mm mach screws ...
.. an 'oval_ish' attaching plate w/ holes for mach screws ...
.. 'plate' has a vertical , attached, cylindical 'tube' 5/16"dia x 2'hi
.... +\- ...
.. 'tube' has a very fine ?copper? tube leading out the 'top' to the
in-engine sensor ...
.. ?copper" tube filled with ?dunno? ...

I had "one_such" ...
which apparently lost it's internal, filler material ... a leak ??/
Replaced it with a kludged-up, hand actuated, push_pull cable mechanism
....
replcements(new) were too expensive , too quick to fail, IMHO.
Hard-sheathed, motor cycle cable worked well for reliable push/pull.
I do recall placing a bi_lever "atop" my kludge ...
'this' reversed the action of the push/pull ...
pull out to 'choke' , push in to 'normal' ... more nearly an intuitive
'normal'.

I dont think(??) that any built-in, thermo adjustments were available
....
?mite? have been a factory supplied "shim_pack" ... cant recall.
Dunno, really.

My ?replacement? worked well ...
offered rich_rich on sub_zero New England(USA) days ...
lite-rich on a cooler, 'fall' day .
I just hadda "remember" to let the "choke" off, manually .
Well worth the effort.

I never considered looking for a replacemnt filler 'material' ...
PIA to refill, let alone the leakage problem.

In 'operation',
the thermo device fluid 'filler' expands with increasing engine heat ,
pushing the protruding, above-mentioned 'button' downward ,
actuating the pump-internal "lever" downward ...
leaning the F/A mixture .
Engine cooling reverses 'this' to a richened F/A mix.

I did find that a front radiator wind blocker helped ...
sub_zero temps all_too_quick cooled the alum engine block.

Shimming the thermo 'device' upward would seem to richen the F/A mix ...
removing shims ( if supplied ) would seem to lean it out .

I cant recall finding any sort of "shim-pack" under the thermo device,
when I removed it, ...
Spica pump "out", on the surgically =clean= bench topped w/ cleaned 6mil
plastic.
used non-shedding 'lab' towels too.

.................
Immediately forward of the thermo-actuator is the barometric actuator
....
operating altitude for the vehicle ...
needs a special, thin, factory wrench, which I loaned & lost. ;_(
The wrench is easily fabbed , if not available.
The devicet operates via a bellows ,
located in the bigger cylinder, atop the pump body.
The thin, lock-nut "below" is the 'altitude' adjust 'lock',
turning the gizmo in/out adjusts for 'alt'
As with a Webber, suck it & see.

.............
Seems to me that a leaky(worn/dirty) check-valve "function" mite produce
a back-fire
with a quick , backed-off throttle ...
manifold dribbled, raw petrol provided at/on the exhaust stroke ...
cant recall where the 'check valve' is ...
?? rite at the injector "port" , as opposed to a location on the Spica
pump body ???
Not sure if "it" can be refurbished ... re polished.

Unlike a diesel,
the fuel isnt delivered into a pressurized cylinder.
Hopefully, its atomized & delivered along with the 'in_moving' air
column.

............
> > 2. Where the heck is it?
> > I've looked at the engine and the two books
> > that I have. The books don't even mention it.
> > 3.Since it rarely gets that cold here in Texas, I was wondering if I
> > could lean it out a little...if so, how?

I snuck down to TX, and stole it.
I needed 'it' more than you.

:-)
"That" Spica manual was a hen's 'tooth' on 'this' side of the Pond.

Ok ...
six(6) "protuberences" off the top of the Spica pump body ...
fore to aft ...
.. four(4), tubed fuel feeds to each port injector ..
.. one(1) barometric unit
.. one(1) F/A mix unit , w/ tube leading to an in_engine temp ?sensor?
....
.. which, I =suspect=, is filled with a fluid(gel ?? ) of proper
.. heat-expansive material to push the adjust lever =inside= the Spica
body.

If you 'pop' this thermo F/A mix unit,
you'll see a protruding, steel button( piston/rod/?? ) ,
exiting from the bottom of the removed sub_assembly device ...
apparently "in/out" actuated by the ?expanding" material in this
'device' ...
which probably leaks out , over time.

No harm in simply 'popping' it ... nothing loose, nothing falls into the
pump.
:-)
Dont over_bend the fine tubing.

I =hacked=/reused the thermo sub_assembly, attached to the Spica body,
in fashioning my "hand choke" ...
used motor cycle , hard sheathed cable ... push-pull capable ...
silver-soldered cable to end of the ( now hack 'exposed' ) steel
button/rod/?piston? .
"they" were both about the same 'dia" ... lead solder is nfg.
Thot about a spring-load back-off ...
nah ... Just 'remember'to choke-off , mostly.

...............
> There was a thread about this not so long ago. I can't remeber the details
> OTTOMH but if you search groups.google.com you may well find the answer.
> ISTR the poster of the answers was 0_Qed or Dr. Entropy
> HTH


Interesting ... never "looked" at a 'Monty' Spica setup closely ...
???
did it use two(2) 4_cyl, inline Spicas ,
or a single, V8 shaped , 8_cyl pump_body Spica ???

.........

Hey Catman ... :-)

"Those" nice filk( fundy ****wits ) at " really DONT
answer email .

Any slite chance you could land_line `em ... "voice" ...
get `em to answer my email.
I'd be indebted if you could.


The LF still needs, what mite 'be', a set of six(6) "COPs" ... coil on
plug.

Been investigating =functional=, alternate, 'COP' equivalents ...
Toyota/Audi/et al ...
which mite aughta work , but mite need a 'hack' to mechanically secure
them.
No 'firm', tested , working "alts" ... yet.



> Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
> Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
> Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 155 TS 75 TS
> Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
> www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

as the "C_man" says ...
HTH,
Ed,
west-side of the Pond.

0_Qed wrote:

> Catman wrote:
>> ~Zaitsev wrote:
>
> Apologies for the "out-of-order' thot process to 'follow' .
<snip>

Nice one Ed.

>
> Hey Catman ... :-)
>
> "Those" nice filk( fundy ****wits ) at " really DONT
> answer email .
>
> Any slite chance you could land_line `em ... "voice" ...
> get `em to answer my email.
> I'd be indebted if you could.
>

No problem. Do me a favour: mail me at chrisatsystemlabs.co.uk next week.
I'm up to my eyeballs right now. Let me know exactly what is needed, plus
exact spec of the machine and I'll bell 'em


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 155 TS 75 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"George Graves" > schreef in bericht
...
> Here in the USA we have a guy in Seattle
> Washington named Wes Ingram who rebuilds SPICA FI equipment. I believe
> that he has parts manufactured to replace the worn ones.
>
> --

Indeed Wes is a real Spica specialist. (www.wesingram.com)
I had my Montreal pump repaired by him.
But he too as a problem with the spares. As long as there are donor pumps
available it's o.k.
Fortunately the 4 cyl. pumps have the same parts, and they are still enough
out there.
Only "problem" is that the Monti pump has twice the amount of spares......
--
Ciao from Holland
AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
Now:
Rosso Radicofani GT 2.0JTS (2005)
Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
And former owner of:
156SW / 2 155's / 75 / Giulietta / 2 33's /
3 Sud's / Alfetta GT / Montreal / 2000GTV /
1300GTJ / 2 Giulia Super's