Outside edge of front tires stairstepping

Is it normal for the outside edges of the front tires to be stairstepping
on the outer inch or two only?

By stairstepping, I mean that you can't see the wear all that much but if
you rub your hand over the tread in one direction, you can feel a lip on
each side swipe tread.

If you run your hand over in the other direction, you don't feel it. You
only feel it if you run your hand from back to front on the outside tread
of the two front tires.

If you do the same with the rear tires or on the inner edge of the front
tires, you don't feel any 'stairstepping".

The tires are about a year old and are wearing the front outside edges
only.

Chaya Eve wrote:
> Is it normal for the outside edges of the front tires to be stairstepping
> on the outer inch or two only?
>
> By stairstepping, I mean that you can't see the wear all that much but if
> you rub your hand over the tread in one direction, you can feel a lip on
> each side swipe tread.
>
> If you run your hand over in the other direction, you don't feel it. You
> only feel it if you run your hand from back to front on the outside tread
> of the two front tires.
>
> If you do the same with the rear tires or on the inner edge of the front
> tires, you don't feel any 'stairstepping".
>
> The tires are about a year old and are wearing the front outside edges
> only.

What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
appear as a wedge.

It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.

Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
normally a suspension wear problem.


--
Steve W.

On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W." > wrote:

> What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
> more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
> appear as a wedge.
>
> It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
> by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
> common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
> cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
> tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.
>
> Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
> going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
> normally a suspension wear problem.

That was a far better answer than I had expected so I appreciate your
expertise. The vehicle was aligned but probably about 2 years ago (while
the tires are about a year old).

The car is driven on a five mile hill every day with scores of hairpins but
it's NEVER driven fast. Those turns are made probably at 20 to 25 MPH (you
can't take the turns any faster and stay on your side of the road).

Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?

On 7/6/17 3:15 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W." > wrote:
>
>> What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
>> more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
>> appear as a wedge.
>>
>> It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
>> by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
>> common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
>> cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
>> tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.
>>
>> Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
>> going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
>> normally a suspension wear problem.
>
> That was a far better answer than I had expected so I appreciate your
> expertise. The vehicle was aligned but probably about 2 years ago (while
> the tires are about a year old).
>
> The car is driven on a five mile hill every day with scores of hairpins but
> it's NEVER driven fast. Those turns are made probably at 20 to 25 MPH (you
> can't take the turns any faster and stay on your side of the road).
>
> Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
> day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?
>

Bet you a dollar that if you took your ride into a good repair shop,
they'd find that your alignment is out of spec...

--
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time or money
making it.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:02:16 -0400, Wade Garrett > wrote:

> Bet you a dollar that if you took your ride into a good repair shop,
> they'd find that your alignment is out of spec...

If it is the alignment, do you concur that it's a combination of the front
camber (tilted out too high at the top) and toe (turned inward too much at
the front).

The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.

On 7/6/17 9:26 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:02:16 -0400, Wade Garrett > wrote:
>
>> Bet you a dollar that if you took your ride into a good repair shop,
>> they'd find that your alignment is out of spec...
>
> If it is the alignment, do you concur that it's a combination of the front
> camber (tilted out too high at the top) and toe (turned inward too much at
> the front).
>
> The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
> or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.
>

Above my pay grade.

For anything other than the over-inflation wear pattern (center tread
wear) I take it in for an alignment.

--
A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect
plan executed next week.
- Gen. George S. Patton

On 6/07/2017 11:26 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:02:16 -0400, Wade Garrett > wrote:
>
>> Bet you a dollar that if you took your ride into a good repair shop,
>> they'd find that your alignment is out of spec...
>
> If it is the alignment, do you concur that it's a combination of the front
> camber (tilted out too high at the top) and toe (turned inward too much at
> the front).

Camber does not cause feathering. It does cause wear on one side.
>
> The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
> or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.
>
The greatest cause of outside edge tyre wear is overenthusiastic cornering.

One point I should note. By all means have your alignment checked. One
thing that can cause feathering is a bent steering arm. Typically, a
bent steering arm will cause a change in toe. If the technician just
corrected the toe, he will have missed the real issue and the car will
now have incorrect *toe out on turns*. A *toe out on turns check* should
always be done at a wheel alignment as it will show up issues like bent
steering arms.

--

Xeno

On 6/07/2017 5:15 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W." > wrote:
>
>> What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
>> more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
>> appear as a wedge.
>>
>> It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
>> by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
>> common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
>> cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
>> tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.
>>
>> Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
>> going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
>> normally a suspension wear problem.
>
> That was a far better answer than I had expected so I appreciate your
> expertise. The vehicle was aligned but probably about 2 years ago (while
> the tires are about a year old).
>
> The car is driven on a five mile hill every day with scores of hairpins but
> it's NEVER driven fast. Those turns are made probably at 20 to 25 MPH (you
> can't take the turns any faster and stay on your side of the road).

That means you *are* traveling very fast, at least for the conditions.
What you are saying is that you are leaving no safety margin on each
hairpin. You will definitely be wearing the outer edges of the tyres
doing that.
>
> Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
> day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?
>
The hairpins are the reason for the feathering on the outer edges of the
tread. If you adjust to eliminate the feathering on curves, you may see
wear on the inside of the tread instead. It is a suspension geometry
anomaly, a compromise if you will, that you can do little about. If you
only drove on a freeway every day, you would see no feathering. FWD
vehicles tend to fare worse for a number of reasons, one being the
greater SAI angles generally used on them, another being the greater
weight on the steering axles. I get the same issue here with my Toyota
due to the predominance of roundabouts and sharp corners I need to
negotiate. The steering alignment was, and is, spot on.

Toe specs are usually given as a range. Set yours to the favourable side
of the spec range realising that FWD vehicles tend to be positive toe
rather than negative.

--

Xeno

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 23:40:10 +1000, Xeno > wrote:

> That means you *are* traveling very fast, at least for the conditions.
> What you are saying is that you are leaving no safety margin on each
> hairpin. You will definitely be wearing the outer edges of the tyres
> doing that.

Well, sometimes I can hear the tires scrape on the turns as I'm going so
slowly (about 20 to 25mph) but I'm also heading downhill (or uphill) at a
steep (I'm told it's consistently 10%) angle.

I never heard of angles in percentages but when I looked that up it seems
to be the way they do roads.

The hilly curves might be the problem, in which case an alignment is a
waste of money (I don't have a lot of money to eat up tires or to do
superfluous alignments either).

Would the fact that the rear tires are not affected mean anything if I was
trying to figure out if the curves were the problem?

>> Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
>> day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?
>>
> The hairpins are the reason for the feathering on the outer edges of the
> tread.

On the five mile drive, there are about five hairpins where you literally
end up going the opposite way you started (180 degrees). Generally you can
take the hairpins wide on the outside direction but you have to take them
narrow on inside part of the curve because you can't see around them.

The rest of the many curves are 90 degree curves. There aren't many less
than 90 degrees.

The main question now that I know it can either be the curves or the
alignment (too much toe in at the front of the front tires plus too much
camber in at the top), I wonder if the fact the rear tires are fine tells
you anything.

On a curvy hilly road, if the fronts were feathered from the curves, would
the rears still be even?

>If you adjust to eliminate the feathering on curves, you may see
> wear on the inside of the tread instead. It is a suspension geometry
> anomaly, a compromise if you will, that you can do little about. If you
> only drove on a freeway every day, you would see no feathering.

This is what I'm wondering, which means there is nothing I can do to
compensate other than maybe tire pressure and wheel rotation.

Frequent rotation would be obviously a given, but I noticed that a cross
rotation (which is what they did) without the spare (the spare is a
different width tire for some reason) still puts the feathered edge on the
outside when the fronts were put on the rear.

Would you add MORE or LESS air to prevent the front tires feathering if
it's the curves doing the feathering?

And would you have the tires mounted the other way every few rotations?
(The problem with that is the inside is a whitewall so they'd all have to
be remounted and not just the two feathered ones.)


> FWD
> vehicles tend to fare worse for a number of reasons, one being the
> greater SAI angles generally used on them, another being the greater
> weight on the steering axles.

It's a Toyota 2WD 4Runner.

> I get the same issue here with my Toyota
> due to the predominance of roundabouts and sharp corners I need to
> negotiate. The steering alignment was, and is, spot on.
>
> Toe specs are usually given as a range. Set yours to the favourable side
> of the spec range realising that FWD vehicles tend to be positive toe
> rather than negative.

I'm thinking of this as a plan so how does it sound?

1. First I need to figure out if it's just the curves or if it could be the
alignment so that's why I ask most of my questions, particularly why the
rears are perfect while it's only the fronts that have the outside edge
feathering the same on both tires.

2. If it's alignment, then the answer is to pay the hundred bucks to have
it aligned and that's all that can be done.

3. However, if it's the curves, then an alignment is a waste of money
better spent on food or tire rotations (which I get free at Costco).

4. What I can do is just get rotations every three to six months which is
never a bad thing anyway (it just takes time, mostly waiting in line).

5. Since the tread is not directional and since the last rotation still put
the feathered outside edge of the front tires on the rear in the same
orientation, what do you think about having all four tires remounted the
other way on every second rotation?

They have to be done all four because they're whitewall on one side only
and blackwall on the other side only.

Does that sound like a good plan?

On Thursday, July 6, 2017 at 6:45:49 AM UTC-10, Chaya Eve wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 23:40:10 +1000, Xeno > wrote:
>
> > That means you *are* traveling very fast, at least for the conditions.
> > What you are saying is that you are leaving no safety margin on each
> > hairpin. You will definitely be wearing the outer edges of the tyres
> > doing that.
>
> Well, sometimes I can hear the tires scrape on the turns as I'm going so
> slowly (about 20 to 25mph) but I'm also heading downhill (or uphill) at a
> steep (I'm told it's consistently 10%) angle.
>
> I never heard of angles in percentages but when I looked that up it seems
> to be the way they do roads.
>
> The hilly curves might be the problem, in which case an alignment is a
> waste of money (I don't have a lot of money to eat up tires or to do
> superfluous alignments either).
>
> Would the fact that the rear tires are not affected mean anything if I was
> trying to figure out if the curves were the problem?
>
> >> Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
> >> day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?
> >>
> > The hairpins are the reason for the feathering on the outer edges of the
> > tread.
>
> On the five mile drive, there are about five hairpins where you literally
> end up going the opposite way you started (180 degrees). Generally you can
> take the hairpins wide on the outside direction but you have to take them
> narrow on inside part of the curve because you can't see around them.
>
> The rest of the many curves are 90 degree curves. There aren't many less
> than 90 degrees.
>
> The main question now that I know it can either be the curves or the
> alignment (too much toe in at the front of the front tires plus too much
> camber in at the top), I wonder if the fact the rear tires are fine tells
> you anything.
>
> On a curvy hilly road, if the fronts were feathered from the curves, would
> the rears still be even?
>
> >If you adjust to eliminate the feathering on curves, you may see
> > wear on the inside of the tread instead. It is a suspension geometry
> > anomaly, a compromise if you will, that you can do little about. If you
> > only drove on a freeway every day, you would see no feathering.
>
> This is what I'm wondering, which means there is nothing I can do to
> compensate other than maybe tire pressure and wheel rotation.
>
> Frequent rotation would be obviously a given, but I noticed that a cross
> rotation (which is what they did) without the spare (the spare is a
> different width tire for some reason) still puts the feathered edge on the
> outside when the fronts were put on the rear.
>
> Would you add MORE or LESS air to prevent the front tires feathering if
> it's the curves doing the feathering?
>
> And would you have the tires mounted the other way every few rotations?
> (The problem with that is the inside is a whitewall so they'd all have to
> be remounted and not just the two feathered ones.)
>
>
> > FWD
> > vehicles tend to fare worse for a number of reasons, one being the
> > greater SAI angles generally used on them, another being the greater
> > weight on the steering axles.
>
> It's a Toyota 2WD 4Runner.
>
> > I get the same issue here with my Toyota
> > due to the predominance of roundabouts and sharp corners I need to
> > negotiate. The steering alignment was, and is, spot on.
> >
> > Toe specs are usually given as a range. Set yours to the favourable side
> > of the spec range realising that FWD vehicles tend to be positive toe
> > rather than negative.
>
> I'm thinking of this as a plan so how does it sound?
>
> 1. First I need to figure out if it's just the curves or if it could be the
> alignment so that's why I ask most of my questions, particularly why the
> rears are perfect while it's only the fronts that have the outside edge
> feathering the same on both tires.
>
> 2. If it's alignment, then the answer is to pay the hundred bucks to have
> it aligned and that's all that can be done.
>
> 3. However, if it's the curves, then an alignment is a waste of money
> better spent on food or tire rotations (which I get free at Costco).
>
> 4. What I can do is just get rotations every three to six months which is
> never a bad thing anyway (it just takes time, mostly waiting in line).
>
> 5. Since the tread is not directional and since the last rotation still put
> the feathered outside edge of the front tires on the rear in the same
> orientation, what do you think about having all four tires remounted the
> other way on every second rotation?
>
> They have to be done all four because they're whitewall on one side only
> and blackwall on the other side only.
>
> Does that sound like a good plan?

It doesn't sound like much of a plan. Just have the toe-in adjusted. You'll probably have to compensate for your worn-out, loosey-goosey, suspension. Then forget about it. This ain't rocket science. Forget about camber too. You can't adjust it.