Ford chief seeks help from Toyota

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> You are somewhat correct, the first number of the VIN designates country
> of origin. The different numbers assigned, 1, 4 and 5 is determined by US
> content.
>
> mike

Prove it.

Think about it. The fact two vehicles assembled in the same plant can have
different numbers proves it has to do with content. If not it would not
only be the LT, but some of the F150s as well, that would exhibit a 4

mike


"Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
. ..
> Yeah, it's the 11th digit. Your point is?
>
> My point as others have pointed out, we have more vehicles produced at
> more assembly plants. Your information that Fords and Lincoln trucks
> assembled at the same plant but with different country digits completely
> proves that you are incorrect.
>

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> Looks like you may have finally stumbled on the explanation you seek. The
> reason the Lincoln LT has a 4 and the F150 a 1, although they both built
> on the same assemble line, is the US content of the LT falls slightly
> below 70%

Since when is 80% "Slightly below 70%"?

http://www.autoweb.com/content/share...le_id_int/1969

BTW, the 2006 Lincoln Mark LT has a VIN that begins with 5, so according to
what you say, it should be "slightly below 40%."

Jeff

> mike
>
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> news:vkaoh.956$2D.305@trndny07...
>>
>> "Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> No they haven't, the only thing they have posted is that the first
>>> number is the county where the vehicle is assembled . Nothing about the
>>> specific number assigned 1, 4 and 5.
>>>
>>> mike
>>
>> Incorrect. I have demostrated that similar vehicles coming off the same
>> assembly line have different first digits despite the fact that the US
>> content is nearly the same. This flies in the face of your conjecture.
>
>

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> On the contrary nothing posted has shown the assignment of the first digit
> of VIN 1, 4 and 5 to be for anything but US content. If you believe that
> is wrong, show us
>
>
> mike

Hold it. You have made this claim many times before. You back it up.

Jeff

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
>I could not care less what you choose to believe, do you own homework, WBMA
>
>
> mike

I did my homework, like finding that a Lincoln Mark LT has a VIN that starts
with '5' which you say is less than 40% US content, while it actually has
80% US content. Oopsie, you're wrong again.

So show us the web site that shows you are correct.

The US Code that requires that VINs be on cars is available on the web.
Where does it say that US content has anything to do with the VIN?

Put up or shut up.

Jeff

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 10:32:58 -0500, "Mike Hunter"
> wrote:

>No so, the requirement to exhibit a '1' as the first number of the VIN and
>be made in the US and is to have at least a 70% US content. Content is
>more than the sum of the parts, it includes everything for R&D, engineering
>design, origin of the steel, plastics, tires assembly etal, to make the
>vehicle. If the content is less than 70%, but more than 40%, the first
>digit assigned is a '4.' If the content is below 40% the first digit is a
>'5.' A vehicle could theoretically have zero US content but still have a
>'5' if it is assembled in the US.
>
> If you look at most of what GM and Ford sell, as well as the Accord, Titan,
>or the vehicles made in the GM/Toyota plant in California for example you
>will see a '1' The Camry, Sienna and even a few Ford made trucks on the
>other hand exhibit '4' The Tundra a '5' Because of a complaint to the
>FTC by Honda, Toyota no longer says made in America in their ads. They now
>say assembled in America of world sourced parts
>
>
>mike
>
>
>"Nicholas Anthony" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Jeff" > wrote in message
>I forget the standard they set to call a
>>>> vehicle "Made in America." I just find it hard to believe that as you
>>>> say "no" US car has enough US parts to be called "Made in America."
>>>
>>> According to the FTC, it means a product advertised as Made in USA be
>>> "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. In other words, Made in the USA
>>> means built in the USA of components all made in the USA.
>>>
>>> A lot of the components in cars are made the car makers outside the US,
>>> like in Canada, Mexico or Asia. If the electronics come from outside the
>>> US, and everything else is from inside the US, you've lost the right to
>>> say, "Made in the USA."
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle...ication_number
content was never mentioned here , i didn't bother looking
for SAE site . Maybe you can and post the content ratios
link.

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> Think about it. The fact two vehicles assembled in the same plant can
> have different numbers proves it has to do with content. If not it would
> not only be the LT, but some of the F150s as well, that would exhibit a 4
>
>
> mike

The LT has a 5.

Could it be that different makes have different WMI (world manufacturer
ids)? And Lincoln wouldn't have been assigned a WMI for trucks because they
didn't make trucks until the last 5 or 10 years, when they started coming
out with trucks (SUVs)?

In fact, this is what it is. Each of the manufacturers have a different WMI.
Look at the bottom table on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_VIN_codes

You'll see that each vehicle type (Lincoln SUV, Ford Passenger car, etc.)
has its own WMI. The WMIs have nothing to do vehicle content. They are
assigned by an organization in the US (I think SAE). If you are correct
about VINs, there would be 3 VINs for each type of vehicle (depending on
content), not just one.

I propose the following bet: Right after Easter, we meet at the NYC auto
show. It should be easy to confirm whether or not the content reported on
the stickers has anything to do with VINs or not. The loser buys lunch at
Dallas BBQ or Red Lobster (I think I will have a coupon for you to save you
money at Red Lobster) or another resteraunt we agree on. We can also take
the subway to Chinatown or Little Italy. It will be nice to meet an nice
perosn with whom I have talked with on the internet in person and put a face
with the typing. And we can post our picture together on the internet.

Jeff


Jeff

>
>
> "Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Yeah, it's the 11th digit. Your point is?
>>
>> My point as others have pointed out, we have more vehicles produced at
>> more assembly plants. Your information that Fords and Lincoln trucks
>> assembled at the same plant but with different country digits completely
>> proves that you are incorrect.
>>
>
>

Obviously the US content has dropped in some of the LTs, if what you say is
true. I know some Aviators have had a 5 as well, in the past. Ford has
been getting more stuff out of it factories in Mexico and Canada, because of
the lower cost there, thus reducing the US content.

The '80%' you are referencing is the NA 'parts' content label. Imported
parts can be listed on the NAP label if the final assemble in NA. That is
how Toyota get to say the Camry and others show a NAP label of 80% yet must
say 'assembled in America of world sourced parts' in their ads

mike


"Jeff" > wrote in message
news:59uoh.3819$1h.2121@trndny09...
>
> "Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Looks like you may have finally stumbled on the explanation you seek.
>> The reason the Lincoln LT has a 4 and the F150 a 1, although they both
>> built on the same assemble line, is the US content of the LT falls
>> slightly below 70%
>
> Since when is 80% "Slightly below 70%"?

> BTW, the 2006 Lincoln Mark LT has a VIN that begins with 5, so according
> to what you say, it should be "slightly below 40%."
>
> Jeff
>

The VIN list the manufacture as well as the divisions and truck have a
different body designations than cars . You can try here
www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin but You may need a password to log on.
No, I will not give you mine if you do.

What makes you think I would ever ride in the NYC subway? Keep searching
and you will find what I found


mike


"Jeff" > wrote in message
news:qOuoh.2153$312.1329@trndny02...
>
> "Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Think about it. The fact two vehicles assembled in the same plant can
>> have different numbers proves it has to do with content. If not it would
>> not only be the LT, but some of the F150s as well, that would exhibit a 4
>>
>>
>> mike
>
> The LT has a 5.
>
> Could it be that different makes have different WMI (world manufacturer
> ids)? And Lincoln wouldn't have been assigned a WMI for trucks because
> they didn't make trucks until the last 5 or 10 years, when they started
> coming out with trucks (SUVs)?
>
> In fact, this is what it is. Each of the manufacturers have a different
> WMI. Look at the bottom table on this page:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_VIN_codes
>
> You'll see that each vehicle type (Lincoln SUV, Ford Passenger car, etc.)
> has its own WMI. The WMIs have nothing to do vehicle content. They are
> assigned by an organization in the US (I think SAE). If you are correct
> about VINs, there would be 3 VINs for each type of vehicle (depending on
> content), not just one.
>
> I propose the following bet: Right after Easter, we meet at the NYC auto
> show. It should be easy to confirm whether or not the content reported on
> the stickers has anything to do with VINs or not. The loser buys lunch at
> Dallas BBQ or Red Lobster (I think I will have a coupon for you to save
> you money at Red Lobster) or another resteraunt we agree on. We can also
> take the subway to Chinatown or Little Italy. It will be nice to meet an
> nice perosn with whom I have talked with on the internet in person and put
> a face with the typing. And we can post our picture together on the
> internet.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Jeff
>
>>
>>
>> "Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> Yeah, it's the 11th digit. Your point is?
>>>
>>> My point as others have pointed out, we have more vehicles produced at
>>> more assembly plants. Your information that Fords and Lincoln trucks
>>> assembled at the same plant but with different country digits completely
>>> proves that you are incorrect.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
...
> The VIN list the manufacture as well as the divisions and truck have a
> different body designations than cars . You can try here
> www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin but You may need a password to log on.
> No, I will not give you mine if you do.

No need. Not giving out your password is a very good idea. I don't even give
my password to my family. Of course, if you knew my family, you wouldn't
give out passwords to them, either.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenan...fs/VIN2005.pdf

On page two of that document, it lists the meaning of the WMI. It doesn't
mention content.

> What makes you think I would ever ride in the NYC subway? Keep searching
> and you will find what I found

Fine, we can walk to a restaurant in Times Square or take a taxi (they use
Ford Crown Vics). You can park in the Port Authority Bus Terminal Garage.
All those places are within walking distance if you're up to it.

I think you are afraid to take the challange.

From the US code that requires VINs: The first section shall consist of
three characters that occupy positions one through three (1-3) in the VIN.
This section shall uniquely identify the manufacturer, make and type of the
motor vehicle if its manufacturer produces 500 or more motor vehicles of its
type annually. If the manufacturer produces less than 500 motor vehicles of
its type annually, these characters along with the third, fourth and fifth
characters of the fourth section shall uniquely identify the manufacturer,
make and type of the motor vehicle. These characters are assigned in
accordance with §565.7(a).

Don't you think it would mention content if the first character had
anything to do with content?

http://www.vinpower.com/vininformation.aspx

And here is an intersting article that mentions that we are running out of
VINs that start with 5.


Jeff

> mike
>
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> news:qOuoh.2153$312.1329@trndny02...
>>
>> "Mike Hunter" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Think about it. The fact two vehicles assembled in the same plant can
>>> have different numbers proves it has to do with content. If not it
>>> would not only be the LT, but some of the F150s as well, that would
>>> exhibit a 4
>>>
>>> mike
>>
>> The LT has a 5.
>>
>> Could it be that different makes have different WMI (world manufacturer
>> ids)? And Lincoln wouldn't have been assigned a WMI for trucks because
>> they didn't make trucks until the last 5 or 10 years, when they started
>> coming out with trucks (SUVs)?
>>
>> In fact, this is what it is. Each of the manufacturers have a different
>> WMI. Look at the bottom table on this page:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_VIN_codes
>>
>> You'll see that each vehicle type (Lincoln SUV, Ford Passenger car, etc.)
>> has its own WMI. The WMIs have nothing to do vehicle content. They are
>> assigned by an organization in the US (I think SAE). If you are correct
>> about VINs, there would be 3 VINs for each type of vehicle (depending on
>> content), not just one.
>>
>> I propose the following bet: Right after Easter, we meet at the NYC auto
>> show. It should be easy to confirm whether or not the content reported on
>> the stickers has anything to do with VINs or not. The loser buys lunch at
>> Dallas BBQ or Red Lobster (I think I will have a coupon for you to save
>> you money at Red Lobster) or another resteraunt we agree on. We can also
>> take the subway to Chinatown or Little Italy. It will be nice to meet an
>> nice perosn with whom I have talked with on the internet in person and
>> put a face with the typing. And we can post our picture together on the
>> internet.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>> Yeah, it's the 11th digit. Your point is?
>>>>
>>>> My point as others have pointed out, we have more vehicles produced at
>>>> more assembly plants. Your information that Fords and Lincoln trucks
>>>> assembled at the same plant but with different country digits
>>>> completely proves that you are incorrect.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>