1959 Bel Air versus 2009 Malibu - NMC but at least car-related

An ode to American cars. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI0hj...eature=related

Pat

XS11E wrote:

> You say that only because you never owned a Pontiac Grand Am of the
> early '90s. One of our customers bought a fleet of them for their
> salespeople and I could not believe the problems! It made the Dodge
> Omni look like a pretty good car.
>
> Ever hit a bump and have the grill fall off?

The Pontiacs were/are awful. The early 1990's was Pontiac's time of
perhaps the most hideous external plastic application ever seen on
production cars, but......we should not think that they are ****
vehicles, because that is all propaganda, not our personal experience or
anything.

Also consider the 1986 Ford LTD, as no worse car was ever made.

Without joking, I saw one that simultaneously had all 4 of the electric
windows inoperable, with a heater that would not turn off, during the
summer in Texas.

If Japan had ever produced such a complete hunk of crap as that LTD
during my lifetime, I would have a different opinion on their vehicles.

If America had put a just a tiny bit of effort into reducing the ****
production, then again, I a might have a different take on American
cars, and maybe even a better attitude about American people.

Pat

On Oct 19, 6:00*am, pws > wrote:
> Tim M. wrote:
> > Thank-you for perfectly illustrating my point!
>
> How did he illustrate your point?
>
> You claimed, and I quote, "I know people at work whose PARENTS had one
> bad experience with a Dodge Omni or a Ford Tempo back in the 1970's or
> 1980's, and those people will NEVER consider an American car."
>
> This was not his parent's Omni that he is talking about, it was his own,
> so it actually does not illustrate your point in any way at all.
>
> You are starting to stand very alone here in defending the pure ****
> vehicles that Detroit has been producing, and is still producing today.
>
> All it takes is a little common sense not to buy these awful cars.

Actually, I started out by defending a single American car - the
current Chevy Malibu, that was characterized as "junk" and
"pathetic." Nor do I think it is an awful car, nor do I think that
"common sense" is what people are using when they choose cars,
certainly not for the most part.

Regardless, that defense seemingly opened the door to open season on
American cars and the history of American cars in general.

I simply have a different viewpoint than many other Miata owners in
this regard, and while folks are certainly entitled to their
viewpoint, I have owned (and worked on) enough foreign and U.S cars
personally to be comfortable in my viewpoint that the criticisms of
American cars are vastly overblown in the mind of the public, and that
the reputations of certain Japanese manufacturers are equally
overblown.

I never stopped buying American cars, and I never stopped buying
Japanese or European cars when they fit my needs, so I have a pretty
well rounded background of experience to go on, a background I'm sure
I'll continue to rely on - as well as magazine road tests and JD
Powers and other quality sureveys as well as friends and family's
inputs, and yes - even enthusiasts groups like this one's inputs -
when it comes time to buy vehicles in the future.

What I won't do is say "I'll never buy another vehicle from X
manufacturer" because of a single - or even a couple - of bad personal
experiences with a previous make or model of that manufacturer's
vehicles. I just won't. I'm going to take each car, or motorcycle,
on its own merits and how well it matches my needs, and I'm not going
to eliminate ANY vehicle that might put a smile on my face just
because of who made it or where it was made.

Finally, back to the original point? 30 years have passed since
Squat's Dodge Omni 024 was built. That's a full generation,
regardless of whether he owned it or his parents owned it. So even
though he owned it, it is still a lousy comparison point for deciding
what to buy now. It would be no more useful for me to say "Wow, my
Mom's 1981 Dodge Omni 4-door automatic spent less time at the dealer
being repaired than did either my 1983 VW GTI or my wife's 1984 VW
Jetta GLI, and it cost less, so I am going to buy a 2010 Chrysler
Sebring instead of a 2010 VW R32."

Now if he simply said "I don't care whether Dodge builds any quality
cars now or not, I'm going to continue to punish the company for the
rest of my life by withholding my consumer dollars because of the one
bad car I bought from them 30 years ago," that's different. I
understand that. I understand consumer rage and disappointment. I
won't patronize my local cable company because of a consumer service
dispute with them that occurred 20 years ago; I use a satellite TV
company because of that, and I don't even compare prices or quality
because that particular company simply isn't going to derive any
economic benefit from my consumer dollars. If they provided better
quality service for less mony than the satellite company, (for all I
know, they might!) it wouldn't change my mind. But I don't assume
that they are still doing to others what they did to me 20 years ago,
either. (otoh, for all I know, they might!)

I was pointing out that such sentiments lead to things like children
never considering a consumer item their parents once bought, simply
because of the strength of emotion behind them.

But I won't disown my children if they buy Toyotas or if they
patronize the local cable company....

On Oct 19, 5:56*am, pws > wrote:

> Fat, lazy Americans make ****ty cars, it is pretty simple.

Aren't most Toyotas and Hondas and BMWs sold in the U.S. built by
Americans? I was under the impression that that was quite a point of
pride among both the companies that advetise that fact and the owners
of cars built by those companies.

Tim M. wrote:

> Aren't most Toyotas and Hondas and BMWs sold in the U.S. built by
> Americans? I was under the impression that that was quite a point of
> pride among both the companies that advetise that fact and the owners
> of cars built by those companies.

Built, yes. Made, no.

Give me the tools and a little training and I can put almost any car
together, especially if it is just specific parts of the assembly
process on an assembly line.

Ask me to design a good car, however, and big trouble will occur.

Pat

Tim M. wrote:

> Actually, I started out by defending a single American car - the
> current Chevy Malibu, that was characterized as "junk" and
> "pathetic." Nor do I think it is an awful car, nor do I think that
> "common sense" is what people are using when they choose cars,
> certainly not for the most part.
>
> Regardless, that defense seemingly opened the door to open season on
> American cars and the history of American cars in general.
>
> I simply have a different viewpoint than many other Miata owners in
> this regard, and while folks are certainly entitled to their
> viewpoint, I have owned (and worked on) enough foreign and U.S cars
> personally to be comfortable in my viewpoint that the criticisms of
> American cars are vastly overblown in the mind of the public, and that
> the reputations of certain Japanese manufacturers are equally
> overblown.
>
> I never stopped buying American cars, and I never stopped buying
> Japanese or European cars when they fit my needs, so I have a pretty
> well rounded background of experience to go on, a background I'm sure
> I'll continue to rely on - as well as magazine road tests and JD
> Powers and other quality sureveys as well as friends and family's
> inputs, and yes - even enthusiasts groups like this one's inputs -
> when it comes time to buy vehicles in the future.
>
> What I won't do is say "I'll never buy another vehicle from X
> manufacturer" because of a single - or even a couple - of bad personal
> experiences with a previous make or model of that manufacturer's
> vehicles. I just won't. I'm going to take each car, or motorcycle,
> on its own merits and how well it matches my needs, and I'm not going
> to eliminate ANY vehicle that might put a smile on my face just
> because of who made it or where it was made.
>
> Finally, back to the original point? 30 years have passed since
> Squat's Dodge Omni 024 was built. That's a full generation,
> regardless of whether he owned it or his parents owned it. So even
> though he owned it, it is still a lousy comparison point for deciding
> what to buy now. It would be no more useful for me to say "Wow, my
> Mom's 1981 Dodge Omni 4-door automatic spent less time at the dealer
> being repaired than did either my 1983 VW GTI or my wife's 1984 VW
> Jetta GLI, and it cost less, so I am going to buy a 2010 Chrysler
> Sebring instead of a 2010 VW R32."
>
> Now if he simply said "I don't care whether Dodge builds any quality
> cars now or not, I'm going to continue to punish the company for the
> rest of my life by withholding my consumer dollars because of the one
> bad car I bought from them 30 years ago," that's different. I
> understand that. I understand consumer rage and disappointment. I
> won't patronize my local cable company because of a consumer service
> dispute with them that occurred 20 years ago; I use a satellite TV
> company because of that, and I don't even compare prices or quality
> because that particular company simply isn't going to derive any
> economic benefit from my consumer dollars. If they provided better
> quality service for less mony than the satellite company, (for all I
> know, they might!) it wouldn't change my mind. But I don't assume
> that they are still doing to others what they did to me 20 years ago,
> either. (otoh, for all I know, they might!)
>
> I was pointing out that such sentiments lead to things like children
> never considering a consumer item their parents once bought, simply
> because of the strength of emotion behind them.
>
> But I won't disown my children if they buy Toyotas or if they
> patronize the local cable company....

Ahhhh, I understand. We may not agree on the domestic car issue, but
that is OK, we are all just a bunch of Miata nuts here anyway. :-)

Good luck to your son as well, whatever make of car he may be working
with at any given time. :-)

Pat

yes they are, but not uaw americans. i think that the uaw has unwittingly
undermined their own purpose and are the major reason why gm and chrysler
are where they are today. because the uaw managed to achieve so many
benefits the american automakers were simply not competing on the same level
as the foreign automakers. because of the burden of labor expense on each
car produced they had to cut costs in other ways to stay competitive. the
result was obvious and history was written. the american automakers have
been trying to negotiate their way out of the this burden over the last few
years, doing things like shifting the pension plans over to the unions, but
it is the recent collapse that has allowed the major us automakers to
renegotiate the union contracts that may actually help these people keep
their jobs. can't blame them for trying to negotiate their best possible
compensation but when it was obviously hurting the health of the company it
just seems greedy and shortsighted that they kept asking for more. of
course there is more to this story but in a nutshell that is my sense of it.

"Tim M." > wrote in message
...
On Oct 19, 5:56 am, pws > wrote:

> Fat, lazy Americans make ****ty cars, it is pretty simple.

Aren't most Toyotas and Hondas and BMWs sold in the U.S. built by
Americans? I was under the impression that that was quite a point of
pride among both the companies that advetise that fact and the owners
of cars built by those companies.

Now, wait a minute there Squat, I owned a Dodge Omni 024 (and so did my
brother) and (both of us) had very good fortune with that car. To be honest
I was still young and stupid, in that I had more money than sense, and I
traded it in after a couple years on something newer / hotter. Maybe that's
why I didn't have issues with it but in the first couple years it was pretty
much bullet proof as far as I remember. YMMV ;-)

Keep in mind that you're saying you've given up on all domestic cars because
of an experience in the 80's ! I don't know about that.

Chris
99BBB

"Squat" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
>
> Oh god, I owned a dodge Omni 024. What a horrible, piece of **** car.
> Yes, that was the last straw for me, I have never purchased an American
> made car since. Traded that for a Mazda pickup that went over 100k without
> a hitch.
> I spent more time fixing that Omni than driving it. From the world's worst
> shifter linkage to door handles that broke and left standing outside a
> locked car.. (Yes, I had to crawl in from the passenger side most of the
> time since the drivers door handle was usually broken. ) I'll look at US
> made cars at the autoshow but I'd never lay down money for one of them.
>
> Squat
>
>
>
>

Thank God, maybe Pat is mellowing out just a touch in his old age ;-)
I love it!

Chris
99BBB

"pws" > wrote in message
...
>
> Ahhhh, I understand. We may not agree on the domestic car issue, but that
> is OK, we are all just a bunch of Miata nuts here anyway. :-)
>
> Good luck to your son as well, whatever make of car he may be working with
> at any given time. :-)
>
> Pat

While there's some truth to what you say Christopher, imho it over
simplifies the issue hugely and takes pretty much the standard 'corporate'
mentality vision. Again, I don't argue that the Labor Unions did some bad
stuff when they were the holder of the 'big stick' (as I like to put it) but
believe me, the companies returned the favor when the stick traded hands
occasionally. I think a greater portion of the blame has to go to
management. Too many bean counters put in charge and a 'quick profits to the
shareholders' mentality are more the culprit, I think. Short sightedness is
what has so badly wounded the domestic car makers. If the whole problem was
the horribly expensive labor and pensions over the years, how was GM able to
price it's cars below the Japanese carmakers? Even the lower prices couldn't
sell them in sufficient volumes because they had sold too many of their
customers a false bill of goods for too long.

I think it's great that Tim has had such good fortune with American
vehicles. I too have had quite good fortune with the ones I've owned and so,
I have also not written the domestics 'off'. But, I know that I was too
close to the exception to the rule, to jump back into an American car w/o
seeing some (at least medium term) seriously improved results. If the
domestics continue to be built better and better, I think they can regain
their previous stature but it won't be easy or quick and corporate America
does not have much in the way of patience.

Chris
99BBB

"Christopher Muto" > wrote in message
t...
> yes they are, but not uaw americans. i think that the uaw has unwittingly
> undermined their own purpose and are the major reason why gm and chrysler
> are where they are today. because the uaw managed to achieve so many
> benefits the american automakers were simply not competing on the same
> level as the foreign automakers. because of the burden of labor expense
> on each car produced they had to cut costs in other ways to stay
> competitive. the result was obvious and history was written. the
> american automakers have been trying to negotiate their way out of the
> this burden over the last few years, doing things like shifting the
> pension plans over to the unions, but it is the recent collapse that has
> allowed the major us automakers to renegotiate the union contracts that
> may actually help these people keep their jobs. can't blame them for
> trying to negotiate their best possible compensation but when it was
> obviously hurting the health of the company it just seems greedy and
> shortsighted that they kept asking for more. of course there is more to
> this story but in a nutshell that is my sense of it.
>
> "Tim M." > wrote in message
> ...
> On Oct 19, 5:56 am, pws > wrote:
>
>> Fat, lazy Americans make ****ty cars, it is pretty simple.
>
> Aren't most Toyotas and Hondas and BMWs sold in the U.S. built by
> Americans? I was under the impression that that was quite a point of
> pride among both the companies that advetise that fact and the owners
> of cars built by those companies.
>