"Al Qaeda" does not exist

"Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Very insightful and to the point. Good job. You even managed to bash
Bush
> > and look smart while doing it ;-)
>
> I wasn't trying to bash Bush. I didn't vote for him and I think he is
> tactically efficient while also being strategically inane, but I wasn't
> trying to minimize him.
>

I understand, hense the winky-smiley thing that followed the "bash" charge.



> > I agree with you almost entirely. It isn't about Bush, its about the
rest
> > of
> > the world understanding that the USA is tops on the hit list, and
> > everybody
> > else is next. I guess our only disagreement is that I agree with Bush's
> > actions because I get that everybody else is next if Bush doesn't do
> > something. Perhaps the specific action can be called into question,
that's
> > certainly fair. But the idea of sitting on ones hands is simply
untenable.
>
> I didn't say he shouldn't have done anything, I said I disagree with his
> actions. He had it right the first time, but then insisted on attacking
> Iraq. You see, tactically efficient, but strategically stupid. Iraq will
not
> ever be Democratic. The power Islam guarantees that.
>

I hope you are wrong here. I hope that democracy and Islam can find a way to
peacefully co-exist so that civil war does not break out as the last
planeload of our troops lifts off the end of the runway.

I agree that Iraq - in hindsight - was not a very smart move. That is, it
turns out to be a very costly decision in terms of life and money, and the
objective is elusive at best. But, since we are there and we have spread the
seeds of freedom and democracy, then we need to stay until the seeds sprout
and can weather the coming storms.




> I think that unless we stay there forever, civil war is inevitable. Think
of
> all the places we have engaged in country building, at least those that
have
> been successful, and then consider if our military presence has ever left
> those countries. I mean go back as far as you want, and the standard will
> not change.
>

I am not sure you are correct here. We built democracy of sorts in Japan,
but we obligated ourselves to provide the continuing defense of that
country. We did pretty much the same in Germany and South Korea. These
countries support our cause by allowing our troops the forward stations to
get to any hot spots that might develop. Our troops are not occupation
forces in the respect that they are not part of the governments. I think the
American goal is to create forward bases in Iraq that mimic the kinds of
bases we have in Japan and Germany, however I do not think this strategy
will sit well with the Arab World and the goal may not be acheived.

I hope, as I said earlier, that the Arab world will support its Iraqi
neighbors in setting democracy on the fast track. It would be a shame if for
any reason, democracy and Islam can not live together. In a perfect world,
the government and the religion of the people could peacably coexist. The
religion is a part of society, and hense a part of the culture and the legal
system, but there is no reason in theory that an Islamic government can not
be democratically elected, and represent all of the people.

To the extent that I am right, civil war will not break out as the last
plane carrying our tropps home lifts off the end of the runway.

"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
...

> I agree that Iraq - in hindsight - was not a very smart move.

I think a lot of us knew it was a bad move before it happened. It wasn't
that hard to see the pitfalls as well as slim margin for success.

> That is, it
> turns out to be a very costly decision in terms of life and money, and the
> objective is elusive at best. But, since we are there and we have spread
> the
> seeds of freedom and democracy, then we need to stay until the seeds
> sprout
> and can weather the coming storms.

Of course I agree.....we opened the worm can and now must stay. But
continuing to discuss the mistake of going there in the first place just
might give someone in power pause before doing so again.

> I hope, as I said earlier, that the Arab world will support its Iraqi
> neighbors in setting democracy on the fast track.

I am quite sure that most Arabs will support the Iraqi's in their effort to
self-govern. But most Arabs don't matter, only the few in power do, and they
have much to lose in the face of representive democracy at home.

It is to the benefit of every autocratic regime in the region that Iraq
erupt in civil war. It is for that reason it will happen.

> It would be a shame if for
> any reason, democracy and Islam can not live together.

Well here is what I think. You can indeed force a democratic style election
on the people. But if they choose to elect Islamic governance, then all you
have done is create a democratic election, not a democratic government. The
middle east isn't close to being ready for a democratic style of government.

What the hell has all this bull**** got to do with BMW cars?

Oldun


"Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I agree that Iraq - in hindsight - was not a very smart move.
>
> I think a lot of us knew it was a bad move before it happened. It wasn't
> that hard to see the pitfalls as well as slim margin for success.
>
>> That is, it
>> turns out to be a very costly decision in terms of life and money, and
>> the
>> objective is elusive at best. But, since we are there and we have spread
>> the
>> seeds of freedom and democracy, then we need to stay until the seeds
>> sprout
>> and can weather the coming storms.
>
> Of course I agree.....we opened the worm can and now must stay. But
> continuing to discuss the mistake of going there in the first place just
> might give someone in power pause before doing so again.
>
>> I hope, as I said earlier, that the Arab world will support its Iraqi
>> neighbors in setting democracy on the fast track.
>
> I am quite sure that most Arabs will support the Iraqi's in their effort
> to self-govern. But most Arabs don't matter, only the few in power do, and
> they have much to lose in the face of representive democracy at home.
>
> It is to the benefit of every autocratic regime in the region that Iraq
> erupt in civil war. It is for that reason it will happen.
>
>> It would be a shame if for
>> any reason, democracy and Islam can not live together.
>
> Well here is what I think. You can indeed force a democratic style
> election on the people. But if they choose to elect Islamic governance,
> then all you have done is create a democratic election, not a democratic
> government. The middle east isn't close to being ready for a democratic
> style of government.
>
>
>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:21:38 -0800, "Jeff Strickland"
> wrote:

>I am not sure you are correct here. We built democracy of sorts in Japan,
>but we obligated ourselves to provide the continuing defense of that
>country. We did pretty much the same in Germany and South Korea. These
>countries support our cause by allowing our troops the forward stations to
>get to any hot spots that might develop. Our troops are not occupation
>forces in the respect that they are not part of the governments. I think the
>American goal is to create forward bases in Iraq that mimic the kinds of
>bases we have in Japan and Germany, however I do not think this strategy
>will sit well with the Arab World and the goal may not be acheived.

Our military defense of Japan is due to the Japanese government
signing a surrender agreement that limits it's military. Germany may
or may not have originally had a similiar agreement but until recent
times has been a divided country and still a potential conflict
region. South Korea is still at war and SEVERELY overpowered by North
Korea and thier allies. The fate of that country would be sealed
quickly without outside support.

The end goal of forward bases, even though Bush and his boys insist
it's not a goal, will not be reached.

"Oldun" > wrote in message
...
> What the hell has all this bull**** got to do with BMW cars?
>
> Oldun
>

Seriously. This has gone on too long.
Can't you fellows move it offline or to some political newsgroup.
This has absolutely nothing to do with BMWs.

-Fred W

"Oldun" > wrote in message
...
> What the hell has all this bull**** got to do with BMW cars?
>
> Oldun
>

Seriously. This has gone on too long.
Can't you fellows move it offline or to some political newsgroup.
This has absolutely nothing to do with BMWs.

-Fred W

"Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I agree that Iraq - in hindsight - was not a very smart move.
>
> I think a lot of us knew it was a bad move before it happened. It wasn't
> that hard to see the pitfalls as well as slim margin for success.
>
> > That is, it
> > turns out to be a very costly decision in terms of life and money, and
the
> > objective is elusive at best. But, since we are there and we have spread
> > the
> > seeds of freedom and democracy, then we need to stay until the seeds
> > sprout
> > and can weather the coming storms.
>
> Of course I agree.....we opened the worm can and now must stay. But
> continuing to discuss the mistake of going there in the first place just
> might give someone in power pause before doing so again.
>
> > I hope, as I said earlier, that the Arab world will support its Iraqi
> > neighbors in setting democracy on the fast track.
>
> I am quite sure that most Arabs will support the Iraqi's in their effort
to
> self-govern. But most Arabs don't matter, only the few in power do, and
they
> have much to lose in the face of representive democracy at home.
>
> It is to the benefit of every autocratic regime in the region that Iraq
> erupt in civil war. It is for that reason it will happen.
>

The "best guess" estimates today are that the insurgents number in the
hundreds to low thousands, not the tens of thousands as has been suggested.
If this is true, then the reality is that it will take but a very few to
upset the apple cart.




> > It would be a shame if for
> > any reason, democracy and Islam can not live together.
>
> Well here is what I think. You can indeed force a democratic style
election
> on the people. But if they choose to elect Islamic governance, then all
you
> have done is create a democratic election, not a democratic government.
The
> middle east isn't close to being ready for a democratic style of
government.
>

Are you saying that democracy and Islam are mutually exclusive? Actually, I
suppose that Islam will shut down democracy, not the other way around, so
the exclusivity does not necessarily run both ways.

"Oldun" > wrote in message
...
> What the hell has all this bull**** got to do with BMW cars?


My apologies to anyone who was upset with a few OT posts, or who mistakenly
opened these comments thinking they were about BMW automobiles.

Awake wrote:
[crap]


Please do not post this OT crap on a cooking newsgroup.



Dog

Erich wrote:

>>Relatively easy to do if keeping them secret was not an objective.
>>
>>We have our entire missile defense infrastructure housed underground, what
>>makes you think that only Americans know how to dig a tunnel complex? It
>
> is
>
>>absurd to suggest that hiding stuff in tunnels and caves is nuts.
>
>
> If you had seen the clip and the illustrations of these supposed underground
> fortresses, you would know how absurd it was.

http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2004/osm01.shtml

--
Sir Baldin Pramer, R.P.A.