Clutch died on '96 Golf 1.8

Roger McDodger wrote:

> Last night the clutch pedal om my Golf dropped to the floor mid gear
> change. Had it towed to the garage, and it was not as I assumed a
> snapped clutch cable. The engineer opened her up, discovered a "broken
> finger", said the clutch was totally worn out. The latter seems
> likely, even though the gears were engaging OK - the pedal was getting
> *really* stiff which I believe is a sign of end-of-life.. but what is
> this finger thing? He mentioned something splitting. Also, how stiff
> should the a properly adjusted clutch be?? It's now like a knife
> through butter! TIA

The clutch spring has a bunch of fingers that point in toward the center
where the throwout bearing pushes them in to disengage the clutch. It's
kinda like a softdrink cup straw hole, but that only has four fingers.

I wonder if the bearing fell through where the finger broke off (split) and
left a large enough space.

--
Wake

How many miles were on the clutch? This sounds like a classic failure of the
"clutch release lever". This lever rides on the clutch release shaft (the
lever your clutch cable attaches to) and resides in the 5th gear/clutch
release bearing housing on the end of the transaxle. It directly actuates
the release bearing, which actuates the clutch pushrod, which actuates the
clutch release plate. It is very easily accessed and replaced without
removing the transaxle from the car by removing the aluminum cap on the end
of the transaxle. A common failure mode is for this lever to split, allowing
the release lever to rotate relative to the lever. The symptom of this
failure is exactly as you described: the pedal goes all the way to the floor
and does not return.

Be advised that this is a $15 part and should not take more than an hour or
so of labor to replace. The release bearing is typically replaced at the
same time (about $8). Your clutch may have been worn and was ready for
replacing, but it probably was not the direct cause of your problem.
Hopefully your mechanic didn't immediately pull the transaxle from the car
before checking the clutch release lever; he probably could have had you
back on the road quickly and cheaply, and you likely could have logged a few
more miles on your clutch. If he did immediately pull the transaxle without
giving you the option of the quick fix, he's probably not as familiar with
VW clutches as he should be.

There are also spring "fingers" on the clutch pressure plate assembly that
can break off, but that won't cause the type of failure you describe. It
would, however, necessitate replacement of the clutch.

--
Kent
1987 VW GTI 8V, original owner, 221,500+ miles


"Roger McDodger" > wrote in message
...
> Last night the clutch pedal om my Golf dropped to the floor mid gear
> change. Had it towed to the garage, and it was not as I assumed a
> snapped clutch cable. The engineer opened her up, discovered a "broken
> finger", said the clutch was totally worn out. The latter seems
> likely, even though the gears were engaging OK - the pedal was getting
> *really* stiff which I believe is a sign of end-of-life.. but what is
> this finger thing? He mentioned something splitting. Also, how stiff
> should the a properly adjusted clutch be?? It's now like a knife
> through butter! TIA
>
>
> --
> S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Did VW offer a 1.8L Golf in 1996? I thought the 4-cyl gas models were all
2.0L.

--
Kent
1987 VW GTI 8V, original owner, 221,500+ miles

"Roger McDodger" > wrote in message
...
> Last night the clutch pedal om my Golf dropped to the floor mid gear
> change. Had it towed to the garage, and it was not as I assumed a
> snapped clutch cable. The engineer opened her up, discovered a "broken
> finger", said the clutch was totally worn out. The latter seems
> likely, even though the gears were engaging OK - the pedal was getting
> *really* stiff which I believe is a sign of end-of-life.. but what is
> this finger thing? He mentioned something splitting. Also, how stiff
> should the a properly adjusted clutch be?? It's now like a knife
> through butter! TIA
>
>
> --
> S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Are you describing the clutch in a A3 Golf? I didn't think the release
bearing was anywhere near the clutch pressure plate "fingers" on this model.

--
Kent
1987 VW GTI 8V, original owner, 221,500+ miles


"Wakeley Purple" > wrote in message
...

> The clutch spring has a bunch of fingers that point in toward the center
> where the throwout bearing pushes them in to disengage the clutch. It's
> kinda like a softdrink cup straw hole, but that only has four fingers.
>
> I wonder if the bearing fell through where the finger broke off (split)
and
> left a large enough space.
>
> --
> Wake

The fact that you itemized a replacement "finger" at a cost of 9 pounds
tells me that it was indeed a broken clutch release lever that caused your
failure. It's an important link in the mechanism that allows you to
disengage the clutch by pressing the pedal; without it, the clutch can't be
disengaged. This is a common problem and a fairly simple fix. And yes,
someone likely could finesse the revs to get the car moving with a failed
clutch release lever, but this tells me that you didn't have catastrophic
failure of the clutch. And no, I don't think the recovery guy did any
further damage to your car by doing this. If you want to see a picture of
the clutch release lever, go to www.germanautoparts.com and follow the links
in the parts catalog (Volkswagen/Golf/Clutch) to find "Lever, Clutch
Release".

Having said that, I wouldn't be too hard on your mechanic, although it
always helps to let him know you're watching. Although a clutch should go
longer than 65K km (depending on your driving habits), he perhaps probably
felt that the transaxle/clutch needed some R&R and figured that a complete
clutch job was not unreasonable. If you could get a look at the old clutch
components you could get a clue. Your shifting problems may have been a
combination of improperly adjusted clutch cable, low gear oil, worn clutch,
worn shift mechanism, etc. The work required to install the new clutch would
allow the mechanic to address some or all of these issues. A "clutch kit"
typically includes a pressure plate assembly, clutch disc, release bearing,
release plate, and release plate spring. I think 108 pounds is reasonable
for parts cost. Five hours labor also sounds reasonable to me.

Just curious: did the mechanic have the flywheel resurfaced and replace some
of the hard to access oil seals (engine rear main, transaxle main shaft,
clutch pushrod) while the transaxle was out of the car? It is common to do
this work at the same time that the clutch is replaced. If these particular
seals develop a significant leak, it can trash your new clutch. There are
other oil seals on the transaxle that are prone to failure also (drive
flange seals especially) so it is always a good idea to replace them too,
especially if you think you were losing gear oil.

Let me throw in a disclaimer while I'm at it. I'm not a mechanic (although I
am a professional engineer, for what it's worth) and my experience working
on VWs is limited exclusively to my U.S. model 1987 VW GTI 8V. It's been
hard-won experience and I consider myself fairly knowledgeable of the
workings of my particular model VW. Having said that, I know VW made changes
to the clutch/transaxle mechanisms between 1987 and 1996 depending on the
model. There may also be some differences between U.S. and UK cars; I'm just
not completely sure. Hopefully someone with more intimate experience with
your particular model Golf will be able to backup or refute my observations.

Good luck with this,

--
Kent
1987 VW GTI 8V, original owner, 221,500+ miles

"Roger McDodger" > wrote in message
...
> "Kent" said :
>
> >How many miles were on the clutch? This sounds like a classic failure of
the
> >"clutch release lever". This lever rides on the clutch release shaft (the
> >lever your clutch cable attaches to) and resides in the 5th gear/clutch
> >release bearing housing on the end of the transaxle. It directly actuates
> >the release bearing, which actuates the clutch pushrod, which actuates
the
> >clutch release plate. It is very easily accessed and replaced without
> >removing the transaxle from the car by removing the aluminum cap on the
end
> >of the transaxle. A common failure mode is for this lever to split,
allowing
> >the release lever to rotate relative to the lever. The symptom of this
> >failure is exactly as you described: the pedal goes all the way to the
floor
> >and does not return.
> >
> >Be advised that this is a $15 part and should not take more than an hour
or
> >so of labor to replace. The release bearing is typically replaced at the
> >same time (about $8). Your clutch may have been worn and was ready for
> >replacing, but it probably was not the direct cause of your problem.
> >Hopefully your mechanic didn't immediately pull the transaxle from the
car
> >before checking the clutch release lever; he probably could have had you
> >back on the road quickly and cheaply, and you likely could have logged a
few
> >more miles on your clutch. If he did immediately pull the transaxle
without
> >giving you the option of the quick fix, he's probably not as familiar
with
> >VW clutches as he should be.
> >
> >There are also spring "fingers" on the clutch pressure plate assembly
that
> >can break off, but that won't cause the type of failure you describe. It
> >would, however, necessitate replacement of the clutch.
>
>
> I'm concerned about this. I have some doubts. The garage I went to I
> have always had trusted implicitly and have always done good work -
> but in this case I did not deal with the engineer I'm used to. Nor was
> I able to visit the garage to inspect what they were doing or what was
> found. Furthermore, when the car was towed the recovery guy initially
> turned the car around by driving it before I could interject. When I
> queried him about this whilst travelling in the cab, he demonstrated
> how it's done by changing from 2nd to 3rd without using the clutch by
> judging the rev's. He managed to do this without any crunching
> whatsoever. I also queried the engineer about this, he said he didn't
> think it was anything to do with it - the clutch was just worn with
> use. Yet, worn and missing teeth.. couldn't this happen if the
> recovery guy misjudged??
>
> I don't know which of the two explanations you've given is correct,
> but the engineer reported "clutch finger broken", and mentioned
> something splitting. I think try and get some clarity from him on
> Monday, and I will take a copy of your text with me - see how they
> repond.
>
> The car has done about 65k so I was *not* expecting this. My previous
> VW did 100k with no clutch problems whatsoever. Possibly in favour of
> the dead-clutch argument - it had become *very* stiff at all times,
> engaging first or reverse from cold could be difficult (I realise the
> tranny needs to warm up). Also felt a sort of gritty sensation coming
> through the accelerator pedal, which seems to have gone with the new
> clutch. A few days ago I made a sharp turn at slow speed and it felt
> like the power steering disengaged.. but in hindsight perhaps the
> first gear was slipping. It was unnerving enough for me to go round
> the block several times and see if it happened again. This car *has*
> been driven hard lately.
>
> Anyway.. the new one feels much slicker, the car seems to be running
> smoother and quieter than before, with fewer rattles. But.. right
> about now, I don't know if the garage and recovery guy have done me a
> favour or not.
>
> This is a problem for car owners like me who do not understand the
> mechanics, explanations pretty much fly over my head. I have to work
> on trust.
>
> Total bill, btw, was £340.
>
> £175 for 5 hours labour
> £108 for clutch kit
> £9 for "finger"
>
> [VAT in additional to the above - I'm in the UK!]
>
>
>
> --
> S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Sounds like only the clutch release bearing lever was the problem and
that replacement of the clutch was a little excessive. Although a new
clutch always feels great, especially if the flywheel is crowned at
the same time (as Kent suggests). I've replaced the 5th gear cap on
two different A2's (yes, the '96 is an A3/MKIII) to cure the same
problem in under 30 minutes.

>The fact that you itemized a replacement "finger" at a cost of 9 pounds
>tells me that it was indeed a broken clutch release lever that caused your
>failure. It's an important link in the mechanism that allows you to
>disengage the clutch by pressing the pedal; without it, the clutch can't be
>disengaged. This is a common problem and a fairly simple fix. And yes,
>someone likely could finesse the revs to get the car moving with a failed
>clutch release lever, but this tells me that you didn't have catastrophic
>failure of the clutch. And no, I don't think the recovery guy did any
>further damage to your car by doing this. If you want to see a picture of
>the clutch release lever, go to www.germanautoparts.com and follow the links
>in the parts catalog (Volkswagen/Golf/Clutch) to find "Lever, Clutch
>Release".
>
>Having said that, I wouldn't be too hard on your mechanic, although it
>always helps to let him know you're watching. Although a clutch should go
>longer than 65K km (depending on your driving habits), he perhaps probably
>felt that the transaxle/clutch needed some R&R and figured that a complete
>clutch job was not unreasonable. If you could get a look at the old clutch
>components you could get a clue. Your shifting problems may have been a
>combination of improperly adjusted clutch cable, low gear oil, worn clutch,
>worn shift mechanism, etc. The work required to install the new clutch would
>allow the mechanic to address some or all of these issues. A "clutch kit"
>typically includes a pressure plate assembly, clutch disc, release bearing,
>release plate, and release plate spring. I think 108 pounds is reasonable
>for parts cost. Five hours labor also sounds reasonable to me.
>
>Just curious: did the mechanic have the flywheel resurfaced and replace some
>of the hard to access oil seals (engine rear main, transaxle main shaft,
>clutch pushrod) while the transaxle was out of the car? It is common to do
>this work at the same time that the clutch is replaced. If these particular
>seals develop a significant leak, it can trash your new clutch. There are
>other oil seals on the transaxle that are prone to failure also (drive
>flange seals especially) so it is always a good idea to replace them too,
>especially if you think you were losing gear oil.
>
>Let me throw in a disclaimer while I'm at it. I'm not a mechanic (although I
>am a professional engineer, for what it's worth) and my experience working
>on VWs is limited exclusively to my U.S. model 1987 VW GTI 8V. It's been
>hard-won experience and I consider myself fairly knowledgeable of the
>workings of my particular model VW. Having said that, I know VW made changes
>to the clutch/transaxle mechanisms between 1987 and 1996 depending on the
>model. There may also be some differences between U.S. and UK cars; I'm just
>not completely sure. Hopefully someone with more intimate experience with
>your particular model Golf will be able to backup or refute my observations.
>
>Good luck with this,

Kent wrote:

> Are you describing the clutch in a A3 Golf? I didn't think the release
> bearing was anywhere near the clutch pressure plate "fingers" on this
> model.
>

I was just going on what I know about clutches in general (admittedly not
too much). I've never heard of a clutch spring where the throwout bearing
didn't directly contact the fingers, either the one-piece spring with
built-in fingers, or the old type with coil springs and lever-type fingers.

--
Wake

Wakeley Purple wrote:

> Kent wrote:
>
>> Are you describing the clutch in a A3 Golf? I didn't think the release
>> bearing was anywhere near the clutch pressure plate "fingers" on this
>> model.
>>
>
> I was just going on what I know about clutches in general (admittedly not
> too much). I've never heard of a clutch spring where the throwout bearing
> didn't directly contact the fingers, either the one-piece spring with
> built-in fingers, or the old type with coil springs and lever-type
> fingers.
>

After reading another post, I realize I'm a little ignorant of VW
engineering. Oh, well, live and learn. Sorry to mislead anybody. I've been
looking for an excuse to get a Bently manual...

--
Wake

>I went down to the garage and picked up the parts.. here they are :
>
>www.media.clara.net/DSCN2634.JPG
>www.media.clara.net/DSCN2636.JPG
>
>Finger is in top right corner of the first image. Difficult to see but
>it has split.
>
>To my uneducated eye, that disc looks WELL worn!! What say you?

Holy mackinaw! They'd better have machined the flywheel...at least if
the pressure plate is any indication!

Well, it looks like the clutch release lever was definitely the cause of
your failure; looks just like the one I pulled out of my transaxle about
100K miles ago! Your pressure plate looks pretty bad though. Looks like you
had a bit of overheating (the darkish spots) and perhaps the clutch had been
chattering a bit. Do you tend to hold yourself on hills using the clutch?
Other things that indicate that the pressure plate is due for replacement
are loose rivets; warpage; and worn, bent or broken fingers (I can't see the
fingers in the photo since the release plate is installed). If the only
visible problem is the surface defects, it probably could have lasted a bit
longer, but it looks due.

As for the disc, I really can't make out its condition very well from the
photo. A definitely bad disc would have warpage, loose or broken springs and
rivets, and/or black glazing from oil contamination. I've also read
somewhere that there should be at least 1/16" of lining above the rivets,
but once you go to the trouble of disassembling things to inspect it, would
be replaced anyway regardless of lining thickness. I can't tell from the
picture, but if you see any indication of black glazing on the disc, contact
your mechanic and make sure he replaced your rear main seal, mainshaft seal,
and pushrod seal. Otherwise, your new disc will suffer the same fate.

Also, I don't see the old release bearing in the photos. Your mechanic
should have replaced it since it's an inexpensive part and is easily
replaced when replacing the clutch release lever. Oh, and he definitely
should have resurfaced the flywheel; if he didn't, call him on it.

All in all, the photos seem to support my earlier opinion that your failure
was due to the inexpensive clutch release lever failure. You didn't need the
full clutch job to get you back on the road, but the condition of the
release plate surface makes me think you would have needed one fairly soon.
Now the question is: why is your pressure plate in such lousy shape after
only 65K miles?

--
Kent
1987 VW GTI 8V, original owner, 221,500+ miles

"Roger McDodger" > wrote in message
...
> "Kent" emitted :
>
> >The fact that you itemized a replacement "finger" at a cost of 9 pounds
> >tells me that it was indeed a broken clutch release lever that caused
your
> >failure. It's an important link in the mechanism that allows you to
> >disengage the clutch by pressing the pedal; without it, the clutch can't
be
> >disengaged. This is a common problem and a fairly simple fix. And yes,
> >someone likely could finesse the revs to get the car moving with a failed
> >clutch release lever, but this tells me that you didn't have catastrophic
> >failure of the clutch. And no, I don't think the recovery guy did any
> >further damage to your car by doing this. If you want to see a picture of
> >the clutch release lever, go to www.germanautoparts.com and follow the
links
> >in the parts catalog (Volkswagen/Golf/Clutch) to find "Lever, Clutch
> >Release".
> >
> >Having said that, I wouldn't be too hard on your mechanic, although it
> >always helps to let him know you're watching. Although a clutch should go
> >longer than 65K km (depending on your driving habits), he perhaps
probably
> >felt that the transaxle/clutch needed some R&R and figured that a
complete
> >clutch job was not unreasonable. If you could get a look at the old
clutch
> >components you could get a clue.
>
> I went down to the garage and picked up the parts.. here they are :
>
> www.media.clara.net/DSCN2634.JPG
> www.media.clara.net/DSCN2636.JPG
>
> Finger is in top right corner of the first image. Difficult to see but
> it has split.
>
> To my uneducated eye, that disc looks WELL worn!! What say you?
>
> >Your shifting problems may have been a
> >combination of improperly adjusted clutch cable, low gear oil, worn
clutch,
> >worn shift mechanism, etc. The work required to install the new clutch
would
> >allow the mechanic to address some or all of these issues. A "clutch kit"
> >typically includes a pressure plate assembly, clutch disc, release
bearing,
> >release plate, and release plate spring. I think 108 pounds is reasonable
> >for parts cost. Five hours labor also sounds reasonable to me.
>
> Sounds reasonable to me too. The total job cost a lot less than VW
> would charge! I haven't yet established if any of the following were
> done at the same time :
>
> >Just curious: did the mechanic have the flywheel resurfaced and replace
some
> >of the hard to access oil seals (engine rear main, transaxle main shaft,
> >clutch pushrod) while the transaxle was out of the car? It is common to
do
> >this work at the same time that the clutch is replaced. If these
particular
> >seals develop a significant leak, it can trash your new clutch. There are
> >other oil seals on the transaxle that are prone to failure also (drive
> >flange seals especially) so it is always a good idea to replace them too,
> >especially if you think you were losing gear oil.
>
> Thanks again for your assistance!
>
>
> --
> S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t