Can direct injection engines start without a starter motor?

wrote:
> Any direct injection gasoline engine can start without a starter
> motor. They produce a high pressure(most injectors for GAS DIRECT
> INJECTION/or SIDI for GM)between 500 to 2900 PSI depending on the
> platform. The fuel injectors also run around 60 to 70 volts as
> opposed to the traditional 12v injectors. They also have the ability
> to fire one to three times per event and run on compression rations
> of 11:1 to 13:1. They can run on multiple mods including stratified,
> stratefied homogeneous, homogeneous anti knock, homogeneous lean, and
> homogeneous.
>
> 2000(yes two thousand) psi is enough to turn a piston over.


wow! excellent example of a specious argument.

GW

Geoff Welsh > wrote in news:l63tb1$bng$1@dont-
email.me:

> wrote:
>> Any direct injection gasoline engine can start without a starter
>> motor. They produce a high pressure(most injectors for GAS DIRECT
>> INJECTION/or SIDI for GM)between 500 to 2900 PSI depending on the
>> platform. The fuel injectors also run around 60 to 70 volts as
>> opposed to the traditional 12v injectors. They also have the ability
>> to fire one to three times per event and run on compression rations
>> of 11:1 to 13:1. They can run on multiple mods including stratified,
>> stratefied homogeneous, homogeneous anti knock, homogeneous lean, and
>> homogeneous.
>>
>> 2000(yes two thousand) psi is enough to turn a piston over.
>
>
> wow! excellent example of a specious argument.
>



Not specious, but silly. OP must be going on book-learning and nothing
else. Or else he's just having fun trolling.

OP is forgetting three very important things:

1) Volume.
How much fuel is being dispensed at 2,000psi?

2) Time.
What is the duration of the injection at 2,000psi?

3) Oxygen.
Successful combustion requires both fuel and oxygen in the correct ratio.
How much oxygen is available to combine with the fuel he wants to inject at
2,000psi?

Why is it that 15,000 volts from a spark plug won't kill you, while 600
volts from an industrial fuse box can? OP won't be able to answer that one.

Compressed-air starters were common on higher-end cars before electric
starters becme practical. There's a reason why they're not around anymore.


--
Tegger

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:00:21 PM UTC-6, Tegger wrote:
> Geoff Welsh > wrote in news:l63tb1$bng$1@dont-
>
> email.me:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >> Any direct injection gasoline engine can start without a starter
>
> >> motor. They produce a high pressure(most injectors for GAS DIRECT
>
> >> INJECTION/or SIDI for GM)between 500 to 2900 PSI depending on the
>
> >> platform. The fuel injectors also run around 60 to 70 volts as
>
> >> opposed to the traditional 12v injectors. They also have the ability
>
> >> to fire one to three times per event and run on compression rations
>
> >> of 11:1 to 13:1. They can run on multiple mods including stratified,
>
> >> stratefied homogeneous, homogeneous anti knock, homogeneous lean, and
>
> >> homogeneous.
>
> >>
>
> >> 2000(yes two thousand) psi is enough to turn a piston over.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > wow! excellent example of a specious argument.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Not specious, but silly. OP must be going on book-learning and nothing
>
> else. Or else he's just having fun trolling.
>
>
>
> OP is forgetting three very important things:
>
>
>
> 1) Volume.
>
> How much fuel is being dispensed at 2,000psi?
>
>
>
> 2) Time.
>
> What is the duration of the injection at 2,000psi?
>
>
>
> 3) Oxygen.
>
> Successful combustion requires both fuel and oxygen in the correct ratio.
>
> How much oxygen is available to combine with the fuel he wants to inject at
>
> 2,000psi?
>
>
>
> Why is it that 15,000 volts from a spark plug won't kill you, while 600
>
> volts from an industrial fuse box can? OP won't be able to answer that one.
>
>
>
> Compressed-air starters were common on higher-end cars before electric
>
> starters becme practical. There's a reason why they're not around anymore.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tegger

There were compressed air powered Locomotives that operated in coal mines too.

On 11/14/2013 10:31 AM, wrote:
> Any direct injection gasoline engine can start without a starter
> motor. <snip>

And of course you've witnessed this? If not, perhaps it's a candidate
for Discovery Channel's MythBusters. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

J.B. Wood > wrote:
>On 11/14/2013 10:31 AM, wrote:
>> Any direct injection gasoline engine can start without a starter
>> motor. <snip>
>
>And of course you've witnessed this? If not, perhaps it's a candidate
>for Discovery Channel's MythBusters. Sincerely,

I'm not sure why anyone would think spraying high pressure fuel into the
cylinder would be useful for starting. You don't get a lot of volume, and
if you DID get a lot of volume, you'd get hydrolocking.

Now. a high enough pressure supercharger, THAT you might have some luck
starting with.

Or just park it on a hill like I did with my Lada that had no functioning
starter.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:16:40 PM UTC-6, larry moe 'n curly wrote:
> Are any cars currently in production with direct injection designed so
>
> they can be be started even if the starter motor doesn't work, at
>
> least in most cases, by having the computer choose a cylinder that has
>
> its valves closed and its pistons in the power stroke position? At
>
> least are direct injection cars designed to help the starter by doing
>
> that?

Not to mention aren't most modern fuel injected cars running between 50 and 70psi at the injectors anyways? That's a far cry from 2000psi. Maybe a diesel would be more interesting?

On Friday, November 15, 2013 9:55:23 AM UTC-6, money2noise wrote:
> On Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:16:40 PM UTC-6, larry moe 'n curly wrote:
>
> > Are any cars currently in production with direct injection designed so
>
> >
>
> > they can be be started even if the starter motor doesn't work, at
>
> >
>
> > least in most cases, by having the computer choose a cylinder that has
>
> >
>
> > its valves closed and its pistons in the power stroke position? At
>
> >
>
> > least are direct injection cars designed to help the starter by doing
>
> >
>
> > that?
>
>
>
> Not to mention aren't most modern fuel injected cars running between 50 and 70psi at the injectors anyways? That's a far cry from 2000psi. Maybe a diesel would be more interesting?

Wayyyy back in the Tin Lizzie years, some people would 'show off' by kicking a front tire of their T Model Ford cars and the engine would start running. What it was, the engine was already warmed up, they would switch off the ignition and then pull on the crank handle to make sure one of the pistons was on the compression stroke, then switch the igniton back on. Kick a tire, Ipso Presto, the engine would start up. www.mtfca.com

JR wrote:
> On Friday, November 15, 2013 9:55:23 AM UTC-6, money2noise wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:16:40 PM UTC-6, larry moe 'n
>> curly wrote:
>>
>>> Are any cars currently in production with direct injection
>>> designed so they can be be started even if the starter motor
>>> doesn't work, at least in most cases, by having the computer
>>> choose a cylinder that has its valves closed and its pistons in
>>> the power stroke position? At least are direct injection cars
>>> designed to help the starter by doing that?
>>
>>
>> Not to mention aren't most modern fuel injected cars running
>> between 50 and 70psi at the injectors anyways? That's a far cry
>> from 2000psi. Maybe a diesel would be more interesting?
>
> Wayyyy back in the Tin Lizzie years, some people would 'show off' by
> kicking a front tire of their T Model Ford cars and the engine would
> start running. What it was, the engine was already warmed up, they
> would switch off the ignition and then pull on the crank handle to
> make sure one of the pistons was on the compression stroke, then
> switch the igniton back on. Kick a tire, Ipso Presto, the engine
> would start up. www.mtfca.com


Same basic trick you use to start some old hit/miss engines.

--
Steve W.

On 11/15/2013 10:55 AM, money2noise wrote:
> On Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:16:40 PM UTC-6, larry moe 'n curly
> wrote:
>> Are any cars currently in production with direct injection designed
>> so
>>
>> they can be be started even if the starter motor doesn't work, at
>>
>> least in most cases, by having the computer choose a cylinder that
>> has
>>
>> its valves closed and its pistons in the power stroke position?
>> At
>>
>> least are direct injection cars designed to help the starter by
>> doing
>>
>> that?
>
> Not to mention aren't most modern fuel injected cars running between
> 50 and 70psi at the injectors anyways? That's a far cry from
> 2000psi. Maybe a diesel would be more interesting?
>

He did specify *direct* injection; 2000 psi is about in the ballpark.

Another thing I forgot in my previous post - at least for BMW, the high
pressure fuel pump is engine driven, not electric - if pressure has bled
down while the engine is off (not unusual; I've already replaced one
leaky injector) there will be no ability to inject fuel until the engine
turns over a few times.

nate

--
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On 11/18/2013 09:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 11/15/2013 10:55 AM, money2noise wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:16:40 PM UTC-6, larry moe 'n curly
>> wrote:
>>> Are any cars currently in production with direct injection designed
>>> so
>>>
>>> they can be be started even if the starter motor doesn't work, at
>>>
>>> least in most cases, by having the computer choose a cylinder that
>>> has
>>>
>>> its valves closed and its pistons in the power stroke position?
>>> At
>>>
>>> least are direct injection cars designed to help the starter by
>>> doing
>>>
>>> that?
>>
>> Not to mention aren't most modern fuel injected cars running between
>> 50 and 70psi at the injectors anyways? That's a far cry from
>> 2000psi. Maybe a diesel would be more interesting?
>>
>
> He did specify *direct* injection; 2000 psi is about in the ballpark.
>
> Another thing I forgot in my previous post - at least for BMW, the high
> pressure fuel pump is engine driven, not electric - if pressure has bled
> down while the engine is off (not unusual; I've already replaced one
> leaky injector) there will be no ability to inject fuel until the engine
> turns over a few times.
>
> nate
>

Looks like Bosch has been working on this, but apparently it's only
practical as a backup mechanism.

http://www.etas.com/data/RealTimes_2...6_01_34_en.pdf

nate

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