A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto makers » Mazda
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

14" T1-S feel a bit slippy ... ?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 30th 05, 11:01 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 14" T1-S feel a bit slippy ... ?

OK I have about 3K miles on my T1-S now, 2000 M2, 195/55-14's.

I posted the alignment numbers a few months ago. They were reasonably close
to the recommended numbers but with max neg. camber on the front (one side
worse than the other).

@29psi the tires definitely can grip and I've adjusted to the vague/flexy
feel of the tires. On right-hand 90-degree turns I find it slips A LOT,
mostly in the rear, and no tire noise when it does it (not that I can hear
in the car with the top down anyway). Dry pavement. I can readily make it
slip this way on my commute home, making a right turn from the highway onto
my side road, @ under 30mph the car is real sensitive to throttle position
and oversteers quite a bit, again with no feedback from the tires like they
are going to slip and no noise. There are no marks/tracks on the road either.

Lower tire pressure seems to just reduce grip. Higher tire pressure
increases the vague feeling of the tires but may improve grip (tried as high
as 32).

???

Is this normal? Feels odd to me. I'd expect the tires to talk to me a bit
before getting as loose as these do, and even leave some mark on the road.
What does it all mean?

FWIW some said these tires had wet traction nearly as good as their dry
traction. No way. Their wet traction is maybe a hair better than the
Falken Ziex ZE-512's that were on there before but nothing to write home
about.

I'm really beginning to miss the departed Pirelli P7000's.
Ads
  #2  
Old August 31st 05, 02:53 PM
pws
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

josh wrote:

>
> Is this normal? Feels odd to me. I'd expect the tires to talk to me a
> bit before getting as loose as these do, and even leave some mark on the
> road. What does it all mean?
>
> FWIW some said these tires had wet traction nearly as good as their dry
> traction. No way. Their wet traction is maybe a hair better than the
> Falken Ziex ZE-512's that were on there before but nothing to write home
> about.
>
> I'm really beginning to miss the departed Pirelli P7000's.


Sounds like an alignment problem, definitely not normal.
High-performance tires tend to give less warning before break-away than
low-performance tires, but you should still be hearing feedback from them.

I agree that the T-1S tires are generally overrated, though they are
very, very good, some people have made it sound like they are magic and
that there is nothing comparable to consider other than the new Toyo T1-R.

I was able to very easily spin the T1-S tires from the start when wet
and they slid in wet corners on a stock 1991 miata with fairly new tires
where they would have easily held in the dry. The slide recovery of the
tires was great, but the traction was not anywhere close to as good as
in dry conditions.

The same wet traction claims were made years ago about the Bridgestone
RE-71 before it was discontinued, and it was equally false with that
tire as well. I actually liked that tire better than the Toyos and wish
that they still made them.

For now, I'll take a set of Yokohama AVS-ES100's over the Toyo T1-S
anyday. My experience is that they hold almost as well in the dry,
slightly better in the wet, and have a sidewall stiffnes that feels like
a great compromise between the overly-flexible and comfortable sidewalls
of the T1-S and the super-firm "rattle your teeth" sidewalls of the
Falken Azenis.

Pat
  #3  
Old August 31st 05, 07:35 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

pws wrote:

> Sounds like an alignment problem, definitely not normal.
> High-performance tires tend to give less warning before break-away than
> low-performance tires, but you should still be hearing feedback from them.


Well these will, under certain corner circumstances, break loose without any
kind of "friction" feel at all... almost like suddenly you've driven onto a
sheet of ice.

Just to test it out on my drive home from work for lunch today, I went hard
around a right-hand tight sweeper turn and could feel the breakaway and hear
the tires howling like I'd expect. This is not like a groomed corner ...
it's in a glorified parking lot. I was definitely cornering real hard
before it broke loose.

Then a few miles later, I went around the right-hand-turn-lane to 90-degree
turn into my neighborhood, and it slipped predictably just as it usually
does, like the coefficient of friction on that piece of road was 1/2 of what
is on the other road. No noise, no howling, no "chuffing" kind of sound
like you get when high-performance tires break loose, no feeling of
"friction" if you know what i'm talking about. "slippy".

And FWIW, yesterday I went around a right turn under throttle from the road
from my office around the turn lane onto the freeway access road, probably
was going 45mph+ and accelerating, the kind of thing that'd send any normal
driver in a reasonable car into a spin or a short trip to the curb. A
little howling if I really stood on it, just barely, and no noticeable loss
of grip.

So the thing is, in some (most) circumstaces, the tires act like normal
tires. They grip like crazy, then make a bit of noise before they break
loose, and when they really go, it's very loud with tire smoke and tracks on
the road and the whole thing. But sometimes, and predictably on the same
corner, piece of road, etc., they just slip without any sound or smoke or
feeling of grip at all.

I'm guessing it's either heat, road surface, dust or some other contaminant
on the road, or maybe something I'm picking up on the tires before I go
around these corners...

Were it alignment, I'd think it'd do it on every corner with the same
radius, grade and speed.

>
> I agree that the T-1S tires are generally overrated, though they are
> very, very good, some people have made it sound like they are magic and
> that there is nothing comparable to consider other than the new Toyo T1-R.
>
> I was able to very easily spin the T1-S tires from the start when wet
> and they slid in wet corners on a stock 1991 miata with fairly new tires
> where they would have easily held in the dry. The slide recovery of the
> tires was great, but the traction was not anywhere close to as good as
> in dry conditions.
>
> The same wet traction claims were made years ago about the Bridgestone
> RE-71 before it was discontinued, and it was equally false with that
> tire as well. I actually liked that tire better than the Toyos and wish
> that they still made them.
>
> For now, I'll take a set of Yokohama AVS-ES100's over the Toyo T1-S
> anyday.


Well the soft sidewall is my biggest gripe. I think they have much more
actual grip than the P7000's I used to have, which will result in better
track times, but they don't have the go-cart FEEL of the Pirelli's when
driving around the neighborhood. So in other words, they don't put a smile
on your face just going around the corner at 25mph the way the Pirellis did.
Yet another lovely tire they don't make any more (in that size). Never
tried RE71. Maybe AVS ES100 is my next tire.
  #4  
Old September 1st 05, 05:52 PM
Chris D'Agnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Josh, I think you're on the right track now. There are so many variables
including the ones that change throughout the day (heat) that are so
critical. I have decided that ride and feel (and in my case, treadwear
rating) are the critical factors for the daily driver as there is no stop
watch ticking away. It's like the go-cart effect, if I can have all the fun
at somewhat lower speeds, speeds that I can delve into frequently, I'm the
winner in that situation not the guy with the highest limits, limits that he
can rarely ever use in the real world.

Chris
92BB&T

"josh" > wrote in message
news:1125513137.733615@sj-nntpcache-5...
> pws wrote:
>
>> Sounds like an alignment problem, definitely not normal.
>> High-performance tires tend to give less warning before break-away than
>> low-performance tires, but you should still be hearing feedback from
>> them.

>
> Well these will, under certain corner circumstances, break loose without
> any kind of "friction" feel at all... almost like suddenly you've driven
> onto a sheet of ice.
>
> Just to test it out on my drive home from work for lunch today, I went
> hard around a right-hand tight sweeper turn and could feel the breakaway
> and hear the tires howling like I'd expect. This is not like a groomed
> corner ... it's in a glorified parking lot. I was definitely cornering
> real hard before it broke loose.
>
> Then a few miles later, I went around the right-hand-turn-lane to
> 90-degree turn into my neighborhood, and it slipped predictably just as it
> usually does, like the coefficient of friction on that piece of road was
> 1/2 of what is on the other road. No noise, no howling, no "chuffing"
> kind of sound like you get when high-performance tires break loose, no
> feeling of "friction" if you know what i'm talking about. "slippy".
>
> And FWIW, yesterday I went around a right turn under throttle from the
> road from my office around the turn lane onto the freeway access road,
> probably was going 45mph+ and accelerating, the kind of thing that'd send
> any normal driver in a reasonable car into a spin or a short trip to the
> curb. A little howling if I really stood on it, just barely, and no
> noticeable loss of grip.
>
> So the thing is, in some (most) circumstaces, the tires act like normal
> tires. They grip like crazy, then make a bit of noise before they break
> loose, and when they really go, it's very loud with tire smoke and tracks
> on the road and the whole thing. But sometimes, and predictably on the
> same corner, piece of road, etc., they just slip without any sound or
> smoke or feeling of grip at all.
>
> I'm guessing it's either heat, road surface, dust or some other
> contaminant on the road, or maybe something I'm picking up on the tires
> before I go around these corners...
>
> Were it alignment, I'd think it'd do it on every corner with the same
> radius, grade and speed.
>
>>
>> I agree that the T-1S tires are generally overrated, though they are
>> very, very good, some people have made it sound like they are magic and
>> that there is nothing comparable to consider other than the new Toyo
>> T1-R.
>>
>> I was able to very easily spin the T1-S tires from the start when wet
>> and they slid in wet corners on a stock 1991 miata with fairly new tires
>> where they would have easily held in the dry. The slide recovery of the
>> tires was great, but the traction was not anywhere close to as good as in
>> dry conditions.
>>
>> The same wet traction claims were made years ago about the Bridgestone
>> RE-71 before it was discontinued, and it was equally false with that
>> tire as well. I actually liked that tire better than the Toyos and wish
>> that they still made them.
>>
>> For now, I'll take a set of Yokohama AVS-ES100's over the Toyo T1-S
>> anyday.

>
> Well the soft sidewall is my biggest gripe. I think they have much more
> actual grip than the P7000's I used to have, which will result in better
> track times, but they don't have the go-cart FEEL of the Pirelli's when
> driving around the neighborhood. So in other words, they don't put a
> smile on your face just going around the corner at 25mph the way the
> Pirellis did. Yet another lovely tire they don't make any more (in that
> size). Never tried RE71. Maybe AVS ES100 is my next tire.



  #5  
Old September 1st 05, 08:03 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Chris D'Agnolo wrote:
> Josh, I think you're on the right track now. There are so many variables
> including the ones that change throughout the day (heat) that are so
> critical. I have decided that ride and feel (and in my case, treadwear
> rating) are the critical factors for the daily driver as there is no stop
> watch ticking away. It's like the go-cart effect, if I can have all the fun
> at somewhat lower speeds, speeds that I can delve into frequently, I'm the
> winner in that situation not the guy with the highest limits, limits that he
> can rarely ever use in the real world.
>



Well it makes me wonder how many sets of tires I'm going to go through
before I get to one that works for me.

When I bought these tires I was on the fence between them and Azenis, ES100's.

Many knowledgeable people advised me that the "soft sidewall" of T1-S and
the slow turn-in were overstated by critics, and that they would feel and
handle just great. Well I think I made a mistake with these tires and next
time I'm going full bore, Azenis all the way.
  #6  
Old September 1st 05, 09:01 PM
Dana H. Myers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

josh wrote:

> Well it makes me wonder how many sets of tires I'm going to go through
> before I get to one that works for me.
>
> When I bought these tires I was on the fence between them and Azenis,
> ES100's.


Heh. I liked the ES100s pretty well, but I'm much happier with the
RE750s I'm on now. Ask me again in 5,000 miles :-)

Dana
'02 SE, JRSC 7psi
  #7  
Old September 1st 05, 09:21 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dana H. Myers wrote:
> josh wrote:
>
>
>>Well it makes me wonder how many sets of tires I'm going to go through
>>before I get to one that works for me.
>>
>>When I bought these tires I was on the fence between them and Azenis,
>>ES100's.

>
>
> Heh. I liked the ES100s pretty well, but I'm much happier with the
> RE750s I'm on now. Ask me again in 5,000 miles :-)
>


ahh..

well I need 14".

too bad.

fwiw I'm about 3-4k miles on the toyos and they look brand new. i think
they will last a little while.

c'mon Pirelli! Give me back my P7000's!
  #8  
Old September 2nd 05, 01:44 AM
Leon van Dommelen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

josh > wrote:

>OK I have about 3K miles on my T1-S now, 2000 M2, 195/55-14's.
>
>I posted the alignment numbers a few months ago. They were reasonably close
>to the recommended numbers but with max neg. camber on the front (one side
>worse than the other).


I believe they were a bit low on negative camber? Especially if you drive
aggressively?

>@29psi the tires definitely can grip and I've adjusted to the vague/flexy
>feel of the tires. On right-hand 90-degree turns I find it slips A LOT,
>mostly in the rear,


IIRC, you did not have increased negative camber on the rear.

> and no tire noise when it does it (not that I can hear
>in the car with the top down anyway). Dry pavement. I can readily make it
>slip this way on my commute home, making a right turn from the highway onto
>my side road, @ under 30mph the car is real sensitive to throttle position
>and oversteers quite a bit, again with no feedback from the tires like they
>are going to slip and no noise. There are no marks/tracks on the road either.
>
>Lower tire pressure seems to just reduce grip.


That seems to be a sign of the sidewalls giving to me. As far as I understand
it, more camber would help there.

> Higher tire pressure
>increases the vague feeling of the tires


Interesting; I would expect just the opposite.

> but may improve grip (tried as high
>as 32).
>
>???
>
>Is this normal? Feels odd to me. I'd expect the tires to talk to me a bit
>before getting as loose as these do, and even leave some mark on the road.
>What does it all mean?
>
>FWIW some said these tires had wet traction nearly as good as their dry
>traction.


That meant relative to competing tires in the same conditions I am sure. No
tire is going to be as good in the wet as in the dry; you pretty much
fall back on the hysteresis mechanism of traction, losing abrasion and
adhesion contributions.

> No way. Their wet traction is maybe a hair better than the
>Falken Ziex ZE-512's that were on there before but nothing to write home
>about.
>
>I'm really beginning to miss the departed Pirelli P7000's.


Let us know what replacement you end up liking. I may try them
myself if they satisfy you.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)
  #9  
Old September 2nd 05, 03:01 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Leon van Dommelen wrote:
> josh > wrote:
>
>
>>OK I have about 3K miles on my T1-S now, 2000 M2, 195/55-14's.
>>
>>I posted the alignment numbers a few months ago. They were reasonably close
>>to the recommended numbers but with max neg. camber on the front (one side
>>worse than the other).

>
>
> I believe they were a bit low on negative camber? Especially if you drive
> aggressively?


Left Right
Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
Caster 5.0 4.8
Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN

Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN

I think Lanny's comment when I posted this before was that I should have

a) tried to get them to increase the amt. of front left neg. camber at the
expense of some other adjustment or

b) at least have them match left/right on the front camber

so far I haven't gone back ... actually it's not front end handling that's
getting me. The car doesn't understeer. The current problem is definitely
oversgteer and there's the recommended (by Lanny amount of negative
camber in the rear.

> That seems to be a sign of the sidewalls giving to me. As far as I understand
> it, more camber would help there.
>


I am not sure I could get more camber in the rear.

I guess it could be sidewalls. I'm trying to increase my observation and
recollection skills on corners where it slips like this, to see if there's
some variable.

>
>> Higher tire pressure
>>increases the vague feeling of the tires

>
>
> Interesting; I would expect just the opposite.


Either higher or lower tire pressure does it. Lower tire pressure screws
the turn-in and makes the car feel "sluggish". Higher tire pressure makes
it feel vague, like it's not making good contact with the road. It's a
different effect. I might bump the pressure a little bit... but these
tires don't really seem to like higher pressure.

And the thing is, I'd love to do more pressure in the rear, but that also is
where I get the max effect of "vague". I used to run a +2psi bias towards
the front with all of my other tires (Pirellis were 33/31 f/r) and found the
car was better balanced to my way of driving.

I'm beginning to think that years of driving FWD cars with tons of roll
stiffness has ingrained a driving style that exacerbates oversteer.

>>FWIW some said these tires had wet traction nearly as good as their dry
>>traction.

>
>
> That meant relative to competing tires in the same conditions I am sure.


Probably so.. and frankly the #1 reason I picked this tire instead of
Falken Azenis 195/60's was fear of wet traction problems. And #2 reason was
tire wear (tread depth, etc., indicates T1-S will last approx 2x as long)
and #3 was weight.


> Let us know what replacement you end up liking. I may try them
> myself if they satisfy you.


Well I'm not changing them any time soon. I am sure I'll get at least
another year out of these Toyos. They're not bad tires and I have adjusted
to the slow feel. I may do a driveway-alignment and see if I can speed up
the turn in a little bit.

I also like the bad-boy look of these Toyos on the car. They just look
right. I know that's dumb, but hey, sports cars are as much about feeling
cool as they are about performance.
  #10  
Old September 2nd 05, 08:32 PM
Frank Berger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"josh" > wrote in message
news:1125606490.920505@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Dana H. Myers wrote:
>> josh wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well it makes me wonder how many sets of tires I'm going to go through
>>>before I get to one that works for me.
>>>
>>>When I bought these tires I was on the fence between them and Azenis,
>>>ES100's.

>>
>>
>> Heh. I liked the ES100s pretty well, but I'm much happier with the
>> RE750s I'm on now. Ask me again in 5,000 miles :-)
>>

>
> ahh..
>
> well I need 14".
>


If this is so important to you, why not just replace the wheels with 15
inchers?

For example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/15-MA...spagenameZWD1V


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Things that make you feel old ! Kruse Ford Mustang 5 July 3rd 05 08:29 PM
Feel vibration in carvan 93 Paul Singh Chrysler 5 February 19th 05 06:30 PM
cartoon: How People Feel About Sitting in Traffic [email protected] Driving 0 December 14th 04 06:10 PM
yall missed me!!!!!! i feel so loved!!!!! linda Chrysler 52 November 17th 04 02:47 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.