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I don't like this wine



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 17th 10, 11:50 AM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Catman
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Posts: 1,075
Default I don't like this wine

Malcolm Osborne wrote:

<snip>
>>
>> I'm reasonably sure it's not your cambelt. Really.
>>

> Waterpump ?


Not hugely likely IMHO. Couple of reasons: It was (should have been)
changed with the cambelts, and the fact that it's cased in water would
*tend* to limit the audibility of any high pitched sounds IYSWIM.
>
> And I'm presuming the actual subject is `whine', not the delicious fluid of
> red, white or rose varieties?


We should be so lucky
>
> regards,
> Malcolm Osborne
> Sedgefield, South Africa
>
>


Welcome

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
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  #12  
Old March 17th 10, 11:52 AM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
GT[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default I don't like this wine

"Zathras" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:02:19 -0000, "GT"
> > wrote:
>
>>Had another listen this morning and I'm about 70% sure its the alternator,
>>but not entirely convinced as there are lots of bits turning in there and
>>it
>>might be coming from something lower and behind the engine - AC or pumps
>>perhaps. I'm going to cross my fingers for alternator

>
> ..or..get something like a solid metal rod (I've used a half inch
> socket driver), put one end firmly on the suspect item and jam the
> other end in your ear. Think redneck stethoscope. Although differences
> can be slight, you should be able to detect what is causing the noise.
>
>> because its accessible
>>and wouldn't be a big job to replace. (I hope).

>
> Steady..it's an Alfa.
>
>>There are a few voices in here that I trust and you are one of them.

>
> Creep!
>
>>According to another group I read, it is part number 46782219 - a 90Amp
>>alternator. Seems to be the same part as in the Punto mark 2!

>
> Next you'll be saying you didn't know that your pride and joy is
> actually a warmed Fiat Tipo in drag. Fiat share many parts. I once got
> a part for my 156 and it came in a bag marked "Fiat Alfa Romeo
> Maserati Ferrari" IIRC. I suspect the Ferrari owner never gets to see
> that bag somehow!!


Not at all - there is a fiat badge under the bonnet on mine. I had a fiat
before. Nothing against Fiats - keeps the price of parts (some) down on
alfas!


  #13  
Old March 17th 10, 11:56 AM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
GT[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default I don't like this wine

"Zathras" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:40:05 +0000, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>>GT wrote:
>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> GT wrote:
>>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...

>
>>>I think my
>>> aircon is turned off at the mo tho, so its probably not that.\

>>
>>Won't make any difference. It spins all the time, and is turned on and
>>off my a magnetic clutch IYSWIM.

>
> One of many reasons I ditched my old 156 was that the A/C pump
> bearings were on the way out. When the compressor was turned on with
> the button, there was a very noticeable grumble from the compressor.
> When off, nothing. I guess it was bearings on the other side from the
> clutch or that the clutch bearings needed loading to reveal their
> wear. It was an LF grumble not a whine though.


I just tried turning my AC on and off - no change in noise, so it ain't
that!

I found this picture of the JTS engine, from behind (!!)...
http://www.alfaromeo.com.hk/img/engines/jts-engine.jpg

The part at the front of the aux belt, that we can't really see too well
(furthest right on the image) is my suspect part and I think it is a water
pump - I now realise that the alternator is low down behind the engine -
clearly visible in this image. Water pumps seem to be much cheaper and
easier to replace than alternators on the JTS! How long do water pumps
usually last?


  #14  
Old March 17th 10, 11:58 AM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Catman
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Posts: 1,075
Default I don't like this wine

GT wrote:
<snip>
>
> Yes I am confusing my belts. I did wonder why a cambelt would be out in the
> open for dirt and grime to potentially disturb! I'm a software engineer, not
> a mechanic, so this is not my area at all!
>


Meh. V6 in my 116 has exposed belt and funky cam pulleys.

> Had another listen this morning and I'm about 70% sure its the alternator,
> but not entirely convinced as there are lots of bits turning in there and it
> might be coming from something lower and behind the engine - AC or pumps
> perhaps. I'm going to cross my fingers for alternator because its accessible
> and wouldn't be a big job to replace. (I hope).


You could try the screwdriver test. Get a looong screwdriver. Place
blunt end[1] against ear and place sharp end [2] against suspect item.
The noise *should* be louder when you find the faulty item.

>
>>>> Final note. When was your cambelt / idlers / water pump changed last?

>> I'm reasonably sure it's not your cambelt. Really.

>
> That is reassuring. I checked my records and cambelt was changed in Oct 2007
> at 56k miles. Car is now on 87k miles. So cambelt is 3.5 years old and has
> done 31k miles. Its due to be changed in Oct this year anyway, so I'll leave
> it at that.


Should be fine then.

>
> There are a few voices in here that I trust and you are one of them. Thanks
> for that. Failed alternators I can handle, but an imploded engine I can't!!


Hell. No pressure or anything, then!
>
> OK next question - I have obviously read about this online and there are
> many reports of the alternator being a nasty job to replace - have to remove
> exhausts, drivers wheel, side panels etc, but it looks like it sits in front
> of the engine with more access than the headlight bulbs, so whats the big
> deal? Perhaps I'm not looking at the alternator, there are no
> distinguishable markings on it other than a sticker with rotation direction
> info, but it looks like an alternator to me!
>

I have no idea at this point. I can't even recall when I last looked
into a TS engine bay.

Oh hang on, there's one outside.

BBIAB.....

<fx: Close up of clock, hands racing round, fade to pages of a calendar
flying in the wind>

Bad news I think. Unless the 156 is radically different (which seem
unlikely) that thing being driven at the front is the aircon compressor.
You probably don't want to start disconnecting that. AFAICT the
alternator is conveniently situated at the rear of the engine, near the
firewall for your comfort and convenience.

ISTBC though.

> According to another group I read, it is part number 46782219 - a 90Amp
> alternator. Seems to be the same part as in the Punto mark 2! Found one on
> ebay for £50.



New or second hand?


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
  #15  
Old March 17th 10, 11:59 AM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Catman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,075
Default I don't like this wine

GT wrote:
> "GT" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> GT wrote:
>>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> GT wrote:
>>>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the
>>>>>> oil is bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It
>>>>>> sounds like a whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the
>>>>>> noise is coming from. I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the
>>>>>> alternator in front of the engine at the driver's side (belt end). The
>>>>>> noise is either coming from a straight forward failing alternator
>>>>>> problem or it might be coming from the top of the engine, which is
>>>>>> valve territory where I presume whining is very bad. Any comments,
>>>>>> suggestions, things to check, ways to diagnose, horror stories etc...
>>>>> My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never
>>>>> heard of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after
>>>>> all) whining.
>>>>> Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail last
>>>>> year. That made some interesting noises.

>> Had another listen this morning and I'm about 70% sure its the alternator,
>> but not entirely convinced as there are lots of bits turning in there and
>> it might be coming from something lower and behind the engine - AC or
>> pumps perhaps. I'm going to cross my fingers for alternator because its
>> accessible and wouldn't be a big job to replace. (I hope).

>
> Daylight makes such a difference - just been out during a break and that's
> not the alternator at the front, its the water pump - pipes go in, pipes
> come out (thought they were thick, protected wires in the dark). Sticker
> also mentions refrigerant type. Alternators don't have pipes and
> refridgerant - even I don't need any more clues than that!!
>
>


I don't want to be rude That's the aircon. The water pump is hidden
inside.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
  #16  
Old March 17th 10, 11:59 AM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
GT[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default I don't like this wine

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> Malcolm Osborne wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>>
>>> I'm reasonably sure it's not your cambelt. Really.
>>>

>> Waterpump ?

>
> Not hugely likely IMHO. Couple of reasons: It was (should have been)
> changed with the cambelts, and the fact that it's cased in water would
> *tend* to limit the audibility of any high pitched sounds IYSWIM.


Is the water pump driven by the cambelt or the aux belt? Why change water
pump at same time as cambelts? I checked my records and its not on the
service list - maybe just not mentioned, but they seem to list all parts
that they charge for.


  #17  
Old March 17th 10, 11:59 AM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Catman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,075
Default I don't like this wine

Zathras wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:40:05 +0000, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>> GT wrote:
>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> GT wrote:
>>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...

>
>>> I think my
>>> aircon is turned off at the mo tho, so its probably not that.\

>> Won't make any difference. It spins all the time, and is turned on and
>> off my a magnetic clutch IYSWIM.

>
> One of many reasons I ditched my old 156 was that the A/C pump
> bearings were on the way out. When the compressor was turned on with
> the button, there was a very noticeable grumble from the compressor.
> When off, nothing. I guess it was bearings on the other side from the
> clutch or that the clutch bearings needed loading to reveal their
> wear. It was an LF grumble not a whine though.
>


Mine was just beginning to sound like a bag of spanners being
enthusiastically shaken.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
  #18  
Old March 17th 10, 12:01 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Catman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,075
Default I don't like this wine

Catman wrote:
> GT wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Yes I am confusing my belts. I did wonder why a cambelt would be out
>> in the open for dirt and grime to potentially disturb! I'm a software
>> engineer, not a mechanic, so this is not my area at all!
>>

>
> Meh. V6 in my 116 has exposed belt and funky cam pulleys.
>
>> Had another listen this morning and I'm about 70% sure its the
>> alternator, but not entirely convinced as there are lots of bits
>> turning in there and it might be coming from something lower and
>> behind the engine - AC or pumps perhaps. I'm going to cross my fingers
>> for alternator because its accessible and wouldn't be a big job to
>> replace. (I hope).

>
> You could try the screwdriver test. Get a looong screwdriver. Place
> blunt end[1] against ear and place sharp end [2] against suspect item.
> The noise *should* be louder when you find the faulty item.
>


>
>

<snip>
Bad form, but forgot my footnotes

[1] This is *important
[2] See [1]

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
  #19  
Old March 17th 10, 12:03 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
GT[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default I don't like this wine

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> GT wrote:
>> "GT" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> GT wrote:
>>>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> GT wrote:
>>>>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the
>>>>>>> oil is bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It
>>>>>>> sounds like a whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the
>>>>>>> noise is coming from. I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the
>>>>>>> alternator in front of the engine at the driver's side (belt end).
>>>>>>> The noise is either coming from a straight forward failing
>>>>>>> alternator problem or it might be coming from the top of the engine,
>>>>>>> which is valve territory where I presume whining is very bad. Any
>>>>>>> comments, suggestions, things to check, ways to diagnose, horror
>>>>>>> stories etc...
>>>>>> My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never
>>>>>> heard of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after
>>>>>> all) whining.
>>>>>> Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail
>>>>>> last year. That made some interesting noises.
>>> Had another listen this morning and I'm about 70% sure its the
>>> alternator, but not entirely convinced as there are lots of bits turning
>>> in there and it might be coming from something lower and behind the
>>> engine - AC or pumps perhaps. I'm going to cross my fingers for
>>> alternator because its accessible and wouldn't be a big job to replace.
>>> (I hope).

>>
>> Daylight makes such a difference - just been out during a break and
>> that's not the alternator at the front, its the water pump - pipes go in,
>> pipes come out (thought they were thick, protected wires in the dark).
>> Sticker also mentions refrigerant type. Alternators don't have pipes and
>> refridgerant - even I don't need any more clues than that!!

>
> I don't want to be rude That's the aircon. The water pump is hidden
> inside.


Not rude at all - I clearly don't know which part is which!


  #20  
Old March 17th 10, 12:04 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Catman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,075
Default I don't like this wine

GT wrote:
> "Zathras" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:40:05 +0000, Catman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> GT wrote:
>>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> GT wrote:
>>>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>>> I think my
>>>> aircon is turned off at the mo tho, so its probably not that.\
>>> Won't make any difference. It spins all the time, and is turned on and
>>> off my a magnetic clutch IYSWIM.

>> One of many reasons I ditched my old 156 was that the A/C pump
>> bearings were on the way out. When the compressor was turned on with
>> the button, there was a very noticeable grumble from the compressor.
>> When off, nothing. I guess it was bearings on the other side from the
>> clutch or that the clutch bearings needed loading to reveal their
>> wear. It was an LF grumble not a whine though.

>
> I just tried turning my AC on and off - no change in noise, so it ain't
> that!
>


No really, the compressor spins all the time. Or at least part of it does.

> I found this picture of the JTS engine, from behind (!!)...
> http://www.alfaromeo.com.hk/img/engines/jts-engine.jpg


Ahh hell it's a JTS no matter.
>
> The part at the front of the aux belt, that we can't really see too well
> (furthest right on the image) is my suspect part and I think it is a water
> pump -


Nope that's the aircon. Water pumps are built into the engine blocks and
don't have refrigerant either.

I now realise that the alternator is low down behind the engine -
> clearly visible in this image. Water pumps seem to be much cheaper and
> easier to replace than alternators on the JTS! How long do water pumps
> usually last?



As long as the cambelt. They are driven by the cambelt and replaced at
the same time because if they bust, they strip the cambelt and the
enginn implodes. That is *not* the waterpump. I can't see it on that
picture.


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
 




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