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Why Are Honda CR-V's Catching Fire?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 16th 04, 09:18 PM
Sparky
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Default Why Are Honda CR-V's Catching Fire?

Why Are Honda CR-V's Catching Fire?

October 12, 2004
By JEREMY W. PETERS

DETROIT, Oct. 8 - With barely 10,000 miles on the odometer of his 2003
Honda CR-V sport utility vehicle, the only thing Steve Elder expected to
smell inside was that new-car scent.

But as he drove home after having the oil changed last December, his
CR-V began to fill with smoke.

"So I got out, obviously, checked under the hood and saw flames coming
out of the engine," said Mr. Elder, a 35-year-old financial planner from
North Yarmouth, Me.

It was not long before the entire vehicle - and a pair of diamond
earrings Mr. Elder had bought his wife for Christmas - were consumed by
the fire.

Mr. Elder's vehicle was one of at least 60 new CR-V's nationwide to
catch fire suddenly while on the road. In most cases, the vehicles had
just been serviced for their first oil changes.

While no injuries have been reported, the National Highway Traffic
Safety Administration has reopened and upgraded an investigation into
the CR-V to determine what is making some of them suddenly burst into
flames, in many cases destroying the vehicles. The expanded inquiry
covers about 280,000 CR-V's in the 2003 and 2004 model years.

So far, the investigation has yielded nothing but finger-pointing, with
Honda blaming dealerships for mishandling oil changes and consumer
groups accusing the automaker of dodging responsibility.

"The core issue for us is the issue of improper installation of the oil
filter," said a Honda spokesman, Andy Boyd. "There doesn't seem to be
anything else that we can point to."

In the new phase of its investigation, the safety agency is looking
beyond the oil filter to see what other factors could be contributing to
the CR-V fires.

Rae Tyson, a spokesman for the agency, said, "In this instance, both
N.H.T.S.A. and Honda initially thought it was merely a problem with not
executing the oil change properly, and that there didn't seem to be
anything inherently wrong with the vehicle."

Mr. Tyson added that while the agency had not found any evidence of a
manufacturer's defect, the manufacturing and design of the CR-V are two
of several subjects investigators are now studying.

Honda and the safety administration thought they had resolved the CR-V
fires problem this summer. In July, the agency closed a preliminary
investigation into fires involving 2003 model CR-V's after Honda said
the problem was a result of faulty oil changes.

According to documents from the safety administration, Honda said that
in many of the vehicles that caught fire, mechanics had either not
properly installed a new oil filter seal or had failed to remove the
factory-installed seal before putting in the new one.

With the two seals in place at one time, the new oil filter could not
create enough suction to prevent oil from leaking out and spilling onto
the car's hot exhaust system. With an improperly installed seal, oil
could also seep out onto the exhaust system and cause a fire.

The documents show that the agency agreed that the problem originated at
dealerships and service stations and had nothing to do with the CR-V's
design.

Honda then sent letters to its dealers warning them of the potential
fire hazard, and the agency stopped its inquiry.

The fires, however, did not stop.

From July 1 to Sept. 9, the date the safety administration reopened its
investigation into the CR-V, the agency received reports of 18 more fires.

The new investigation, known as an engineering analysis, is the most
exhaustive of the agency's safety inquiries. It is also looking at model
year 2004 CR-V's because drivers have begun reporting fires in those
models as well.

Mr. Tyson said the investigation could have several outcomes, ranging
from no action to a recall.

Honda insists the fires are being caused by negligence on the part of
mechanics and says it is not considering a voluntary recall.

"You can't recall the process of changing oil, and that really is the
root problem as we see it today," Mr. Boyd said.

What is puzzling Honda engineers and other automobile experts who have
been studying the fires is why they are occurring only in 2003 and 2004
models.

"There were no fundamental changes in the vehicle design from 2002 to
2003, yet we have seen this jump in the number of leaks, and in some
cases fires," Mr. Boyd said.

Mr. Boyd said the last significant redesign to the CR-V was in 2001, but
fires have only recently become a problem.

Some experts have argued that if the fault lies with mechanics, as Honda
contends, any vehicle would be prone to the same problems as the CR-V.

"There's something Honda isn't telling the government about this
vehicle," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for
Auto Safety.

Mr. Ditlow said the safety agency should order a recall if Honda refused
to do one voluntarily. "This is an open-and-shut case, so the only
question for us is, Why haven't they done a safety recall?"

Gregory Barnett, an automotive and heavy-truck consultant to the
insurance industry who has written a book about vehicle fires, said the
CR-V problem appeared to be a result of Honda's design and laziness on
the part of mechanics.

The CR-V's oil filter, like those in models from many other automakers,
is near the exhaust system, which increases the likelihood of a fire if
the filter leaks, Mr. Barnett said. It is the mechanic's job to keep a
leak from happening, he added.

"For somebody to change the oil and not check for a stuck gasket is just
stupid," Mr. Barnett said. "I can't believe that Honda has had to send a
letter out saying, 'Hey, guys, check for the oil filter gasket - you're
setting cars on fire.' "

Some Honda mechanics disagree.

In a letter to Automotive News, Jonathan O'Brian, a Honda shop foreman
in Princeton, N.J., said the close proximity of the oil filter to the
exhaust system in the CR-V could not be overlooked.

"With oil changes being relegated to less-experienced technicians and
the constant pressure to do the job quickly, what is simply a mess on
any other car is potentially hazardous on a CR-V," he wrote.

Mr. O'Brian declined to comment further, saying his letter had made his
superiors at Honda unhappy.

"I'm better off not saying anything," he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/bu...78189f9f838 d

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

----------------------------------------------------------------

'"With oil changes being relegated to less-experienced technicians and
the constant pressure to do the job quickly, what is simply a mess on
any other car is potentially hazardous on a CR-V," he wrote.'

IOW, O'Brian is defending shoddy workmanship and saying it's
unreasonable for the manufacturer to expect Honda service people to
follow the shop manual and just plain crazy for customers to expect
anything more than crap work. Double gaskets? What's more basic in an
oil filter change? Will he defend cars being returned to customers
without a filter altogether?

A compelling argument for customers to change their own oil.

IIRC the article doesn't say, but suggests, that the fires are largely
in cars serviced at Honda dealers - the dealers better watch out here.

I also wonder about Mr. Ditlow, who wants Honda to issue a recall - in
the lack of an engineering design flaw, what would Honda have done to
the CR-V's on the recall?

I'm curious if the fires are distributed evenly amongst the 50 states in
proportion to CR-V sales and, assuming Honda uses the same design in
other markets, if fires are occurring in those markets, as well.
Ads
  #2  
Old October 16th 04, 10:18 PM
SoCalMike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sparky wrote:
> "For somebody to change the oil and not check for a stuck gasket is just
> stupid," Mr. Barnett said. "I can't believe that Honda has had to send a
> letter out saying, 'Hey, guys, check for the oil filter gasket - you're
> setting cars on fire.' "


ive got a feeling the particular batch of OEM fram filters installed at
the factory had bad glue on the gaskets, so when changed, the gasket
would tear from the filter and stick to the block.

mechanics, not used to this happening, toss the old filter and put the
new one on. bingo!

all the mechanic has to do is check that the old gasket is still on the
filter before they toss it. but that *will* take some reminding.

i never check for an old gasket on the block, but i do check the filter
before i toss it. and i wipe down the area the gasket sits on when im
cleaning the inevitable drips.
  #3  
Old October 17th 04, 08:39 AM
Burt Squareman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Neglecting double checking, IMO. Many years ago my
'82 Accord caught fire twice with the same exhaust-filter
location. Doesn't bother me. Just glad to own a car.

--
Burt


"Sparky" > wrote in message
et...
> Why Are Honda CR-V's Catching Fire?
> October 12, 2004
> By JEREMY W. PETERS
> DETROIT, Oct. 8 - With barely 10,000 miles on the odometer of his 2003
> Honda CR-V sport utility vehicle, the only thing Steve Elder expected to
> smell inside was that new-car scent.
> But as he drove home after having the oil changed last December, his
> CR-V began to fill with smoke.
> "So I got out, obviously, checked under the hood and saw flames coming
> out of the engine," said Mr. Elder, a 35-year-old financial planner from
> North Yarmouth, Me.
> It was not long before the entire vehicle - and a pair of diamond
> earrings Mr. Elder had bought his wife for Christmas - were consumed by
> the fire.
> Mr. Elder's vehicle was one of at least 60 new CR-V's nationwide to
> catch fire suddenly while on the road. In most cases, the vehicles had
> just been serviced for their first oil changes.
> While no injuries have been reported, the National Highway Traffic
> Safety Administration has reopened and upgraded an investigation into
> the CR-V to determine what is making some of them suddenly burst into
> flames, in many cases destroying the vehicles. The expanded inquiry
> covers about 280,000 CR-V's in the 2003 and 2004 model years.
> So far, the investigation has yielded nothing but finger-pointing, with
> Honda blaming dealerships for mishandling oil changes and consumer
> groups accusing the automaker of dodging responsibility.
> "The core issue for us is the issue of improper installation of the oil
> filter," said a Honda spokesman, Andy Boyd. "There doesn't seem to be
> anything else that we can point to."
> In the new phase of its investigation, the safety agency is looking
> beyond the oil filter to see what other factors could be contributing to
> the CR-V fires.
> Rae Tyson, a spokesman for the agency, said, "In this instance, both
> N.H.T.S.A. and Honda initially thought it was merely a problem with not
> executing the oil change properly, and that there didn't seem to be
> anything inherently wrong with the vehicle."
> Mr. Tyson added that while the agency had not found any evidence of a
> manufacturer's defect, the manufacturing and design of the CR-V are two
> of several subjects investigators are now studying.
> Honda and the safety administration thought they had resolved the CR-V
> fires problem this summer. In July, the agency closed a preliminary
> investigation into fires involving 2003 model CR-V's after Honda said
> the problem was a result of faulty oil changes.
> According to documents from the safety administration, Honda said that
> in many of the vehicles that caught fire, mechanics had either not
> properly installed a new oil filter seal or had failed to remove the
> factory-installed seal before putting in the new one.
> With the two seals in place at one time, the new oil filter could not
> create enough suction to prevent oil from leaking out and spilling onto
> the car's hot exhaust system. With an improperly installed seal, oil
> could also seep out onto the exhaust system and cause a fire.
> The documents show that the agency agreed that the problem originated at
> dealerships and service stations and had nothing to do with the CR-V's
> design.
> Honda then sent letters to its dealers warning them of the potential
> fire hazard, and the agency stopped its inquiry.
> The fires, however, did not stop.
> From July 1 to Sept. 9, the date the safety administration reopened its
> investigation into the CR-V, the agency received reports of 18 more fires.
> The new investigation, known as an engineering analysis, is the most
> exhaustive of the agency's safety inquiries. It is also looking at model
> year 2004 CR-V's because drivers have begun reporting fires in those
> models as well.
> Mr. Tyson said the investigation could have several outcomes, ranging
> from no action to a recall.
> Honda insists the fires are being caused by negligence on the part of
> mechanics and says it is not considering a voluntary recall.
> "You can't recall the process of changing oil, and that really is the
> root problem as we see it today," Mr. Boyd said.
> What is puzzling Honda engineers and other automobile experts who have
> been studying the fires is why they are occurring only in 2003 and 2004
> models.
> "There were no fundamental changes in the vehicle design from 2002 to
> 2003, yet we have seen this jump in the number of leaks, and in some
> cases fires," Mr. Boyd said.
> Mr. Boyd said the last significant redesign to the CR-V was in 2001, but
> fires have only recently become a problem.
> Some experts have argued that if the fault lies with mechanics, as Honda
> contends, any vehicle would be prone to the same problems as the CR-V.
> "There's something Honda isn't telling the government about this
> vehicle," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for
> Auto Safety.
> Mr. Ditlow said the safety agency should order a recall if Honda refused
> to do one voluntarily. "This is an open-and-shut case, so the only
> question for us is, Why haven't they done a safety recall?"
>
> Gregory Barnett, an automotive and heavy-truck consultant to the
> insurance industry who has written a book about vehicle fires, said the
> CR-V problem appeared to be a result of Honda's design and laziness on
> the part of mechanics.
>
> The CR-V's oil filter, like those in models from many other automakers,
> is near the exhaust system, which increases the likelihood of a fire if
> the filter leaks, Mr. Barnett said. It is the mechanic's job to keep a
> leak from happening, he added.
>
> "For somebody to change the oil and not check for a stuck gasket is just
> stupid," Mr. Barnett said. "I can't believe that Honda has had to send a
> letter out saying, 'Hey, guys, check for the oil filter gasket - you're
> setting cars on fire.' "
>
> Some Honda mechanics disagree.
>
> In a letter to Automotive News, Jonathan O'Brian, a Honda shop foreman
> in Princeton, N.J., said the close proximity of the oil filter to the
> exhaust system in the CR-V could not be overlooked.
>
> "With oil changes being relegated to less-experienced technicians and
> the constant pressure to do the job quickly, what is simply a mess on
> any other car is potentially hazardous on a CR-V," he wrote.
>
> Mr. O'Brian declined to comment further, saying his letter had made his
> superiors at Honda unhappy.
>
> "I'm better off not saying anything," he said.
>
>

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/bu...78189f9f838 d
>
> Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> '"With oil changes being relegated to less-experienced technicians and
> the constant pressure to do the job quickly, what is simply a mess on
> any other car is potentially hazardous on a CR-V," he wrote.'
>
> IOW, O'Brian is defending shoddy workmanship and saying it's
> unreasonable for the manufacturer to expect Honda service people to
> follow the shop manual and just plain crazy for customers to expect
> anything more than crap work. Double gaskets? What's more basic in an
> oil filter change? Will he defend cars being returned to customers
> without a filter altogether?
>
> A compelling argument for customers to change their own oil.
>
> IIRC the article doesn't say, but suggests, that the fires are largely
> in cars serviced at Honda dealers - the dealers better watch out here.
>
> I also wonder about Mr. Ditlow, who wants Honda to issue a recall - in
> the lack of an engineering design flaw, what would Honda have done to
> the CR-V's on the recall?
>
> I'm curious if the fires are distributed evenly amongst the 50 states in
> proportion to CR-V sales and, assuming Honda uses the same design in
> other markets, if fires are occurring in those markets, as well.






  #4  
Old October 19th 04, 05:29 AM
king ass
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Honda no good anymore dont buy
  #5  
Old October 19th 04, 05:35 PM
Alex Rodriguez
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Default

In article >,
says...

>Honda no good anymore dont buy


More like bone headed mechanic can't change a filter properly.
--------------
Alex

 




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