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Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who willdie?



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 30th 18, 04:04 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
nospam[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 149
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who will die?

In article >, Roger Blake
> wrote:

> > that's the very rare exception, not the rule, and you know it.

>
> At the moment the average car in the U.S. is over a decade old.
> That means that many are older.


what matters is the distribution, not the average.

your 40 year old vehicle is an outlier. very few cars on the road today
are anywhere near that old.

> Anyone can make a car last for decades if they have a mind to. It
> helps to start with a vehicle that is durable to begin with.


they can, but there's little point in that unless it's a classic car
that will hold its value.

newer cars are *much* safer, more economical, more comfortable and far
less likely to need a repair leaving one stranded.

in any event, the original point was that nothing lasts forever, and it
doesn't.
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  #12  
Old October 30th 18, 04:59 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Roger Blake[_2_]
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Posts: 111
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who willdie?

On 2018-10-30, nospam > wrote:
> they can, but there's little point in that unless it's a classic car
> that will hold its value.


The point is economical motoring, not going into debt slavery for new
vehicles, and having a vehicle you can easily repair yourself without
the need for a lot of specialized equipment.

> newer cars are *much* safer, more economical, more comfortable and far
> less likely to need a repair leaving one stranded.


I've never broken down to the point where I could not easily get
going again using simple hand tools. Comfort is a judgement call,
but there are plenty of older cars that are quite comfortable.
(I'm perfectly happy with mine.) Lower gas mileage is more than
made up for by not spending may thousands of dollars on new vehicles,
and having 3-point belts, side impact beams, and padded dash are safe
enough for me.

> in any event, the original point was that nothing lasts forever, and it
> doesn't.


A point which is meaningless. The earth and sun will not last forever
either, but that is not an immediate concern. You can make a car last
a very long time in terms of a human lifetime. See Cuba for an extreme
example.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
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  #13  
Old October 30th 18, 02:14 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 488
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who willdie?

On 10/29/2018 4:18 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 10/29/2018 12:55 PM, nospam wrote:
>> In article >, The Real Bev
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> <sigh> The question is moot since I will never involve
>>> myself with a
>>> self-driving car.

>>
>> you won't have a choice once they become widespread.
>> they're already on
>> the road in some cities.

>
> My Corolla will last forever. Unless gasoline engines and
> human drivers are outlawed I'll never have to be the
> occupant of a self-driving car.
>


+1
All my 1965 cars save me from safety, pollution controls,
chinese electronics and incessant lights and beeps. Add 'no
autonomy' and I'm in! Plus, exempt from seat belt citations.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #14  
Old October 30th 18, 03:07 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Heron[_2_]
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Posts: 22
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who willdie?

On 10/30/2018 8:14 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/29/2018 4:18 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 10/29/2018 12:55 PM, nospam wrote:
>>> In article >, The Real Bev
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> <sigh>Â* The question is moot since I will never involve
>>>> myself with a
>>>> self-driving car.
>>>
>>> you won't have a choice once they become widespread.
>>> they're already on
>>> the road in some cities.

>>
>> My Corolla will last forever.Â* Unless gasoline engines and
>> human drivers are outlawed I'll never have to be the
>> occupant of a self-driving car.

>
> +1
> All my 1965 cars save me from safety, pollution controls, chinese
> electronics and incessant lights and beeps. Add 'no autonomy' and I'm
> in! Plus, exempt from seat belt citations.


From your posts, I've always known that you (plural)
were mouth breathing, knuckle dragging Luddites.
Thanx for the continuing verification.
  #15  
Old October 30th 18, 04:25 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Scott Dorsey
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Posts: 3,914
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who willdie?

Roger Blake > wrote:
>On 2018-10-29, Scott Dorsey > wrote:
>> That's not so easy with a Toyota. I had a '78 Corolla SR5 and wound up
>> junking it when I could no longer get even routine parts for it.

>
>I can see where older foreign cars might be a problem to get parts for.
>It's common to still find parts on the shelf for decades-old U.S. iron.
>Heck, I know people daily-driving cars older than mine.


Again, it depends. I had a Chrysler Laser, which was a curious vehicle
that I kind of liked, but I couldn't get CV joints for the thing and had
to get them custom. Chrysler couldn't even get distributor caps for it;
they had the caps in stock if you knew the number but the dealer database
was screwed up and didn't list the right cap.

After ten years the manufacturer doesn't really care about supporting the
vehicle. If parts are common to many years, you can likely get them if you
can figure out what they are. If it's a popular car that people want to
keep running, there's likely aftermarket support and plenty of aftermarket
parts available. Otherwise... maybe not.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #16  
Old October 31st 18, 02:22 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
nospam[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 149
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who will die?

In article >, Roger Blake
> wrote:

> > they can, but there's little point in that unless it's a classic car
> > that will hold its value.

>
> The point is economical motoring, not going into debt slavery for new
> vehicles, and having a vehicle you can easily repair yourself without
> the need for a lot of specialized equipment.


very, very few people repair their own vehicles, and the types of
repairs an older vehicle will need are often beyond their skill set,
such as an engine rebuild, transmission overhaul, body work, etc. those
repairs are also not cheap and will cost more than what the vehicle is
worth, and in many cases, parts are not available, making repairs not
possible.

> > newer cars are *much* safer, more economical, more comfortable and far
> > less likely to need a repair leaving one stranded.

>
> I've never broken down to the point where I could not easily get
> going again using simple hand tools.


that doesn't mean others haven't. an older vehicle is more likely to
have an unexpected breakdown than a newer one. very simple.

> Comfort is a judgement call,
> but there are plenty of older cars that are quite comfortable.


there are, but newer vehicles more so.

> (I'm perfectly happy with mine.) Lower gas mileage is more than
> made up for by not spending may thousands of dollars on new vehicles,


as opposed to many thousands of dollars on repairs for the older
vehicle.

> and having 3-point belts, side impact beams, and padded dash are safe
> enough for me.


but not for others.

newer vehicles have airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control,
attention alert, lane departure warning, adaptive cruise control,
collision avoidance radar and limited autonomy. when full autonomy
becomes common, they'll be even safer.

> > in any event, the original point was that nothing lasts forever, and it
> > doesn't.

>
> A point which is meaningless. The earth and sun will not last forever
> either, but that is not an immediate concern. You can make a car last
> a very long time in terms of a human lifetime. See Cuba for an extreme
> example.


you can, but there's no good reason to do so.

at some point, the cost to repair and maintain it is more than the
value of the vehicle, at which point replacement is a better choice.
  #17  
Old October 31st 18, 07:14 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
The Real Bev[_5_]
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Posts: 570
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who willdie?

On 10/30/2018 06:22 PM, nospam wrote:

> newer vehicles have airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control,
> attention alert, lane departure warning, adaptive cruise control,
> collision avoidance radar and limited autonomy. when full autonomy
> becomes common, they'll be even safer.


BUT some/most/all of the above are not repairable by the people who used
to regularly repair their own cars. Additional safety features are
really nice, but they come at a price.

--
Cheers, Bev
I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have
never experienced any prob
  #18  
Old October 31st 18, 07:26 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
nospam[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 149
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who will die?

In article >, The Real Bev
> wrote:

>
> > newer vehicles have airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control,
> > attention alert, lane departure warning, adaptive cruise control,
> > collision avoidance radar and limited autonomy. when full autonomy
> > becomes common, they'll be even safer.

>
> BUT some/most/all of the above are not repairable by the people who used
> to regularly repair their own cars.


so what? neither is the rest of the vehicle, other than simple stuff
like oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, etc. they're also *far*
more reliable and don't need much beyond that.

the days of home repairs are mostly gone, and not just cars either.

> Additional safety features are
> really nice, but they come at a price.


everything does.
  #19  
Old November 1st 18, 01:56 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Roger Blake[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 111
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who willdie?

On 2018-10-31, nospam > wrote:
> very, very few people repair their own vehicles, and the types of
> repairs an older vehicle will need are often beyond their skill set,
> such as an engine rebuild, transmission overhaul, body work, etc. those
> repairs are also not cheap and will cost more than what the vehicle is
> worth, and in many cases, parts are not available, making repairs not
> possible.


That has not been my experience. None of the major drivetrain components
(engine, transmission, rear axle) have ever been apart on my car. No
body work has been required, though I don't sweat the small stuff.

> that doesn't mean others haven't. an older vehicle is more likely to
> have an unexpected breakdown than a newer one. very simple.


However, any such breakdowns are likely to be repairable with simple hand
tools and inexpensive parts. Very simple.

> there are, but newer vehicles more so.


Once again, a judgement call. For the many thousands of dollars I've
saved I am quite comfortable indeed.

> as opposed to many thousands of dollars on repairs for the older
> vehicle.


Hasn't happened. I have spent very little on repairs.

> but not for others.


That's their call. I'm not interested.

> newer vehicles have airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control,
> attention alert, lane departure warning, adaptive cruise control,
> collision avoidance radar and limited autonomy. when full autonomy
> becomes common, they'll be even safer.


I don't care about any of those features, and having worked in the
computer industry since the 1970s do not have the blind faith in
technology rampant amongst many people, particularly the young. I will
not be buying into any of it.

> you can, but there's no good reason to do so.


You keep saying that. You are wrong.

> at some point, the cost to repair and maintain it is more than the
> value of the vehicle, at which point replacement is a better choice.


I have not reached that point in 40 years. If it does occur I'll be satisfied
that I have gotten the full value of the vehicle and would look for another old
car to replace it.

The problem here is that I have the experience of driving a decades-old
vehicle and you do not, yet you persist in dicating to me what it is
like to do so.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  #20  
Old November 1st 18, 01:58 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Roger Blake[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 111
Default Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who willdie?

On 2018-10-31, nospam > wrote:
> the days of home repairs are mostly gone, and not just cars either.


Perhaps for yourself and city folk who don't know how to hold a wrench.
Not for me and most of the people I know.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 




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