Controller woes in rFactor

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:05:45 -0500, "PlowBoy" >
wrote:

>Remco...
>
>I bet you, the root of the problem is how much of a task the software &
>drivers is on the system... sidewinder drivers prolly do things, like
>buffer on a couple CPU cycles and? Well, i read your problem, and seem ISI
>stuff is pretty bloated. so I was Thinking of code and execution here,
>where as you prolly having the "Visual Basic" coded generic driver support
>with overhead & 'just in case code that is still in there', where as, rest
>of us have drivers coded in assembly, without the fat... again that is my
>anology to it, now your CPU & GAME are tied up calculating polygons &
>physics and in there it has to ask, "OK where is the wheel, brake, &
>Throttle" and the driver which is still (imagining opening NEW Microsoft
>Internet explorer, EVERY time you want to view a different page) well the
>driver didnt have the answer yet, so CPU and stuff gets, "um hell I dont
>know yet, still polling xx" cpu goes "**** I gotta go..." and a unset
>(random number generated) variable is thrown in as the input... which is
>seen as a spike...
>
>Just me and my theory

After a lot of testing I've come to the conclusion the base of the
problem isn't rFactor, but my system. The sound is causing noise
in the gameportreadings. The reason I didn't catch this before has to
do with the following things:

You can't turn off the music in the PLR file.

When you turn down the volume in rFactor to 0%, it still plays the
music.

Normally you don't have sound when you're in the Windows Game
Controllers Applet. When I checked the status in the Applet while
playing music, I saw some spiking.

The reason I don't see spiking in Papyrus based games had to do, I
guess, with some kind of filter. For example, keep the last x samples,

drop the lowest and highest value, and use the mean of the remaining
values. That will solve 99% of the problems.

Anyway, I'm trying my Audigy2 soundcard instead of the onboard
soundcard tonight, I hope that will solve it.


Cheers!


Remco







>Remco Moedt enlightened us with:
>> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 20:41:50 -0500, Dave Henrie
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> no@email (Remco Moedt) wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like bad pots to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But then I should see the spiking in the game controller applet,
>>>> NR2003 and GPL aswell.....there the values are rocksolid.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Remco
>>>>
>>> Papyrus has a complete controller applet that is independant of
>>> Windows. It goes back to the dos days when programmers had to write
>>> that stuff themselves.
>>> ISI has always used windows based controllers. So my guess is,
>>> you are using a soundport with Windows XP. From what I understand,
>>> XP does not work will with soundports. My guess is, the Papy
>>> dedicated controller code avoids the issue, but the ISI sims cannot
>>> since they work with windows.
>>
>> I used the DirectInput driver in GPL and NR2003, both worked fine.
>>
>> Also the Game Controller Applet in Windows doesn't give me the noise.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>> Remco
>
>

Crap... you know I actually started my post, about this conclusion you
found 1st, (maybe noise in soundcards?)

But decided it was way to long ago to be releveant... One other thing I
was going to say was I recall someone (was it Wilshe) found that grounding
the pedals & wheel and PC at same place, reduced noise or something like
that too? since then Ecci put in ground wire, (they were game port also at
least at 1st).

Anyway, the a few moments ago my far fetch theory I started post to ya
Remco, was:

I recall early when the PC's went over the 600mhz VLB was the rage I think
it was, everyone who was serious gaming with wheels, had to have a GOOD
soundcard, it seems to me anyway, (which as you discoverd the symptom I was
unable to figure this out...) Back then, I didn't accept the thought: if
cheap cards (blaster clones) were more suseptable to noise/spiking, then it
had to be the sound cards... Thus back when I had a POS Sound Galaxy
soundcard from company, everyone else was having little trouble with wheels,
but mine was terrible. because I had NOT made the connection about the
soundcar/gameport/syntesizer port I think we all just assumed that the fix
was to get a Thrustmaster ACM card. In fact MANY went with the PDPI which
was better? It converted alanog inputs from gamport, to digital info
without processor time being taken, and as always is a plus. I think what
kept me from PDPI (price is one reason but at the time, I had one PCI slot?)
and my ACM card was locally available, was in the end same fix of getting
the wheels signal into the PC without noise.
...




Remco Moedt enlightened us with:
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:05:45 -0500, "PlowBoy" >
> wrote:
>
>> Remco...
>>
>> I bet you, the root of the problem is how much of a task the
>> software & drivers is on the system... sidewinder drivers prolly do
>> things, like buffer on a couple CPU cycles and? Well, i read your
>> problem, and seem ISI stuff is pretty bloated. so I was Thinking of
>> code and execution here, where as you prolly having the "Visual
>> Basic" coded generic driver support with overhead & 'just in case
>> code that is still in there', where as, rest of us have drivers
>> coded in assembly, without the fat... again that is my anology to
>> it, now your CPU & GAME are tied up calculating polygons & physics
>> and in there it has to ask, "OK where is the wheel, brake, &
>> Throttle" and the driver which is still (imagining opening NEW
>> Microsoft Internet explorer, EVERY time you want to view a different
>> page) well the driver didnt have the answer yet, so CPU and stuff
>> gets, "um hell I dont know yet, still polling xx" cpu goes "**** I
>> gotta go..." and a unset (random number generated) variable is
>> thrown in as the input... which is seen as a spike...
>>
>> Just me and my theory
>
> After a lot of testing I've come to the conclusion the base of the
> problem isn't rFactor, but my system. The sound is causing noise
> in the gameportreadings. The reason I didn't catch this before has to
> do with the following things:
>
> You can't turn off the music in the PLR file.
>
> When you turn down the volume in rFactor to 0%, it still plays the
> music.
>
> Normally you don't have sound when you're in the Windows Game
> Controllers Applet. When I checked the status in the Applet while
> playing music, I saw some spiking.
>
> The reason I don't see spiking in Papyrus based games had to do, I
> guess, with some kind of filter. For example, keep the last x samples,
>
> drop the lowest and highest value, and use the mean of the remaining
> values. That will solve 99% of the problems.
>
> Anyway, I'm trying my Audigy2 soundcard instead of the onboard
> soundcard tonight, I hope that will solve it.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> Remco
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Remco Moedt enlightened us with:
>>> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 20:41:50 -0500, Dave Henrie
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> no@email (Remco Moedt) wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like bad pots to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But then I should see the spiking in the game controller applet,
>>>>> NR2003 and GPL aswell.....there the values are rocksolid.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Remco
>>>>>
>>>> Papyrus has a complete controller applet that is independant of
>>>> Windows. It goes back to the dos days when programmers had to
>>>> write that stuff themselves.
>>>> ISI has always used windows based controllers. So my guess is,
>>>> you are using a soundport with Windows XP. From what I understand,
>>>> XP does not work will with soundports. My guess is, the Papy
>>>> dedicated controller code avoids the issue, but the ISI sims cannot
>>>> since they work with windows.
>>>
>>> I used the DirectInput driver in GPL and NR2003, both worked fine.
>>>
>>> Also the Game Controller Applet in Windows doesn't give me the
>>> noise.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>>
>>> Remco

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:30:58 -0500, "PlowBoy" >
wrote:

>Crap... you know I actually started my post, about this conclusion you
>found 1st, (maybe noise in soundcards?)

> But decided it was way to long ago to be releveant... One other thing I
>was going to say was I recall someone (was it Wilshe) found that grounding
>the pedals & wheel and PC at same place, reduced noise or something like
>that too? since then Ecci put in ground wire, (they were game port also at
>least at 1st).

This is something I could check, thanks for the info.

>Anyway, the a few moments ago my far fetch theory I started post to ya
>Remco, was:
>
> I recall early when the PC's went over the 600mhz VLB was the rage I think
>it was, everyone who was serious gaming with wheels, had to have a GOOD
>soundcard, it seems to me anyway, (which as you discoverd the symptom I was
>unable to figure this out...) Back then, I didn't accept the thought: if
>cheap cards (blaster clones) were more suseptable to noise/spiking, then it
>had to be the sound cards... Thus back when I had a POS Sound Galaxy
>soundcard from company, everyone else was having little trouble with wheels,
>but mine was terrible. because I had NOT made the connection about the
>soundcar/gameport/syntesizer port I think we all just assumed that the fix
>was to get a Thrustmaster ACM card. In fact MANY went with the PDPI which
>was better? It converted alanog inputs from gamport, to digital info
>without processor time being taken, and as always is a plus. I think what
>kept me from PDPI (price is one reason but at the time, I had one PCI slot?)
>and my ACM card was locally available, was in the end same fix of getting
>the wheels signal into the PC without noise.

I used to have a PDPI card. It was for an ISA slot, and the drawback
was that it had a 128 bit resolution, which wasn't enough for the
steeringwheel. I know that Windows XP doesn't handle the gameport
that well, but I was confused since I didn't seem to get the noise in
the game controller applet and the Papyrus games.

I do have a gameport - USB converter (Rockwell IIRC), but with that I
get major lag, and even a lesser resolution as in the past with the
PDPI.


Cheers!


Remco

"Remco Moedt" <no@email> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:05:45 -0500, "PlowBoy" >
> wrote:
>>
> You can't turn off the music in the PLR file.
>
> When you turn down the volume in rFactor to 0%, it still plays the
> music.

This is just a wild guess, but what happens if you delete the music mp3
file?
--
David G Fisher

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:25:26 +0200, Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?=
> wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:33:49 GMT, Remco Moedt wrote:
>
>> Normally you don't have sound when you're in the Windows Game
>> Controllers Applet. When I checked the status in the Applet while
>> playing music, I saw some spiking.
>>
>> The reason I don't see spiking in Papyrus based games had to do, I
>> guess, with some kind of filter. For example, keep the last x samples,
>>
>> drop the lowest and highest value, and use the mean of the remaining
>> values. That will solve 99% of the problems.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm trying my Audigy2 soundcard instead of the onboard
>> soundcard tonight, I hope that will solve it.
>>
>
>Hi Remco,
>
>good seeing you online in rFactor tonight, looks like you solved the
>problem? Have you tried an el-cheapo gameport->USB adapter like the
>Rockfire with your setup? My gameport-TSW2 now runs over one of those,
>and it's quite good.

Nope, still haven't solved the problem. As a matter of fact, I created
a new one, my sound isn't working anymore. I don't have an active mxer
anymore, and so far I didn't succeed to install one.

I also do have a Rockfire USB-GP converter, but it doesn't work well.
The range is too small, so it's like driving with keys :-( Thanks for
the tip, though.


Cheers!


Remco

Try one of those Logitech Srim Pro wheels, I think you can do it for a day
or 2 at most stores take it back, I hear many like the wheel?
locate and procure a MS FF wheel?

dang. Not much help after all now, huh?



Remco Moedt enlightened us with:
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:25:26 +0200, Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?=
> > wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:33:49 GMT, Remco Moedt wrote:
>>
>>> Normally you don't have sound when you're in the Windows Game
>>> Controllers Applet. When I checked the status in the Applet while
>>> playing music, I saw some spiking.
>>>
>>> The reason I don't see spiking in Papyrus based games had to do, I
>>> guess, with some kind of filter. For example, keep the last x
>>> samples,
>>>
>>> drop the lowest and highest value, and use the mean of the remaining
>>> values. That will solve 99% of the problems.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I'm trying my Audigy2 soundcard instead of the onboard
>>> soundcard tonight, I hope that will solve it.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Remco,
>>
>> good seeing you online in rFactor tonight, looks like you solved the
>> problem? Have you tried an el-cheapo gameport->USB adapter like the
>> Rockfire with your setup? My gameport-TSW2 now runs over one of
>> those, and it's quite good.
>
> Nope, still haven't solved the problem. As a matter of fact, I created
> a new one, my sound isn't working anymore. I don't have an active mxer
> anymore, and so far I didn't succeed to install one.
>
> I also do have a Rockfire USB-GP converter, but it doesn't work well.
> The range is too small, so it's like driving with keys :-( Thanks for
> the tip, though.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> Remco

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:59:55 -0500, "PlowBoy" >
wrote:

>Try one of those Logitech Srim Pro wheels, I think you can do it for a day
>or 2 at most stores take it back, I hear many like the wheel?
>locate and procure a MS FF wheel?
>
>dang. Not much help after all now, huh?

I still have the original Red Leather Logitech, so it's not that I'm
totally lost. But when you've driven an Hyperstim once, the Logitech
doesn't cut it....thx for the attempt to help, though!

Cheers!

Remco

Hi Remco...
I use a gameport terminated wheel/pedals I made years ago... (all metal
construction), when USB became the norm I had simular problems... tried
the earth tricks etc. to no avail... I now use the Rockfire USB-GP
convertor. Works well with all the sims I have tried, GPL, GTR,
rFactor, GTL etc. Make sure you that you set-up your wheel with the
windows controller setup prog. If you are not getting the range from
your axis pots... you may have to change the value... I think mine are
100k... but you may have to go to 200k. I have also used a prog called
'Joycal.exe' (Dos prog, but I think it may still work in XP...?) that
enables you to check for full travel/adjustment of the pots in your
wheel/pedals... make sure you are getting the full travel on the pots!
Mechanically turn the pots or adjust the mechanism until you are.
Rockfire is the best way to go as long as you have sorted the pots...
you may have to eliminate any old circuitary in your wheel pedals if it
is interfering with the Rockfire... the pots in my wheel/pedal/clutch go
direct to the 25 pin game plug that then plugs into the Rockfire... 100%
no lag and calibrates ok. Use an ohmeter on the pinouts of the 25 way
game plug to make sure you are getting the full range from each pot!
i.e. 2-3 ohms up to the max value of the pot value 100k (200k). You can
get the pinouts by doing a google search FOR 'GAMEPORT/25 WAY PINOUTS'.
If this fails... take up Underwater Hang Gliding... it's more fun.

Best of luck...

DaveH-UK

Remco Moedt wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:25:26 +0200, Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?=
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:33:49 GMT, Remco Moedt wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Normally you don't have sound when you're in the Windows Game
>>>Controllers Applet. When I checked the status in the Applet while
>>>playing music, I saw some spiking.
>>>
>>>The reason I don't see spiking in Papyrus based games had to do, I
>>>guess, with some kind of filter. For example, keep the last x samples,
>>>
>>>drop the lowest and highest value, and use the mean of the remaining
>>>values. That will solve 99% of the problems.
>>>
>>>Anyway, I'm trying my Audigy2 soundcard instead of the onboard
>>>soundcard tonight, I hope that will solve it.
>>>
>>
>>Hi Remco,
>>
>>good seeing you online in rFactor tonight, looks like you solved the
>>problem? Have you tried an el-cheapo gameport->USB adapter like the
>>Rockfire with your setup? My gameport-TSW2 now runs over one of those,
>>and it's quite good.
>
>
> Nope, still haven't solved the problem. As a matter of fact, I created
> a new one, my sound isn't working anymore. I don't have an active mxer
> anymore, and so far I didn't succeed to install one.
>
> I also do have a Rockfire USB-GP converter, but it doesn't work well.
> The range is too small, so it's like driving with keys :-( Thanks for
> the tip, though.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> Remco
>
>
>
>

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:13:44 +0100, DaveH-UK > wrote:

>I use a gameport terminated wheel/pedals I made years ago... (all metal
>construction), when USB became the norm I had simular problems... tried
>the earth tricks etc. to no avail... I now use the Rockfire USB-GP
>convertor. Works well with all the sims I have tried, GPL, GTR,
>rFactor, GTL etc. Make sure you that you set-up your wheel with the
>windows controller setup prog. If you are not getting the range from
>your axis pots... you may have to change the value... I think mine are
>100k... but you may have to go to 200k. I have also used a prog called
>'Joycal.exe' (Dos prog, but I think it may still work in XP...?) that
>enables you to check for full travel/adjustment of the pots in your
>wheel/pedals... make sure you are getting the full travel on the pots!
>Mechanically turn the pots or adjust the mechanism until you are.
>Rockfire is the best way to go as long as you have sorted the pots...
>you may have to eliminate any old circuitary in your wheel pedals if it
>is interfering with the Rockfire... the pots in my wheel/pedal/clutch go
>direct to the 25 pin game plug that then plugs into the Rockfire... 100%
> no lag and calibrates ok. Use an ohmeter on the pinouts of the 25 way
>game plug to make sure you are getting the full range from each pot!
>i.e. 2-3 ohms up to the max value of the pot value 100k (200k). You can
>get the pinouts by doing a google search FOR 'GAMEPORT/25 WAY PINOUTS'.
>If this fails... take up Underwater Hang Gliding... it's more fun.

Heya Dave,

I also have the Rockfire USB-Gameport thingy. I also use some
condensators to extend the value of the potentiometers, which are High
end Spectrol 50k. I can't get higher ones. Even with the condensators
I don't get enough range from the axis, for example the throttle only
has 8 steps.

I've decided to convert the thing to USB to solve the whole gameport
problem. Thanks for your tips, though!


Cheers!


Remco

Remco get your BUTT back in VROC !!!


"Remco Moedt" <no@email> wrote in message
...
>
>
> As I wrote earlier, I've a problem configuring my wheel in rFactor.
> The wheel in question is an Hyperstim, connected to the gameport.
> (Yeah yeah, ancient technology) In the Windows Game Controller applet,
> and the Papyrus games (NR2003 & GPL) this is working fine, using
> DirectInput, or the Generic driver.
>
> I can get rFactor to recognize the wheel, that part is working well. I
> can also select the right axis, even the direction is ok But, it's
> spiking like mad, always to one side. I dismantled my hyper to reverse
> the steering potentiometer, since it was the wrong way around before,
> thinking this was the cause of the problem, but it turned out not
> being so.
>
> What did happen was that the spiking was now the other way around. I
> must add that my accelerator does have the same problem, albeit a
> little less. The brake is fine.
>
> Does anyone have an idea what could be the cause of this behaviour?
>
> TIA,
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> Remco
>
>