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14" T1-S feel a bit slippy ... ?



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 2nd 05, 09:55 PM
josh
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Frank Berger wrote:

>
>
> If this is so important to you, why not just replace the wheels with 15
> inchers?
>
> For example:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/15-MA...spagenameZWD1V
>
>


1. weight

2. I have better ways to spend $400
Ads
  #12  
Old September 3rd 05, 01:57 AM
Leon van Dommelen
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josh > wrote:

>Leon van Dommelen wrote:
>> josh > wrote:
>>
>> I believe they were a bit low on negative camber? Especially if you drive
>> aggressively?

>
> Left Right
>Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN
>
>Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
> Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN


Much more camber rear than I seemed to remember. Not that I am an expert
in any sense, but the way I might think about it is that you have a well
aligned car except for the missing camber front left. So if you make
a strong right turn, initially the car "falls" flat on the front left tire
thread, and you have best traction in front, oversteer. When the turn
tightens, however, the front left starts to turn on the sidewall, while the
thread of the left rear is now gripping the road flat. More grip at the
rear so we now have oversteer. That should feel pretty weird, it seems to
me, maybe explaining some of what you are saying.

Turning left, there should be similar weirdness, but less strong since on
a left turn the weight and traction is mostly on the right wheels.

>b) at least have them match left/right on the front camber


I tend to think the same thing. But at my age, the problem is not so much
having the money to pay for a good alignment, but finding a shop that can
do it.

>>> Higher tire pressure
>>>increases the vague feeling of the tires

>>
>>
>> Interesting; I would expect just the opposite.

>
>Either higher or lower tire pressure does it. Lower tire pressure screws
>the turn-in and makes the car feel "sluggish".


Makes sense to me.

> Higher tire pressure makes
>it feel vague, like it's not making good contact with the road.


As above, I am suspecting the car as set up might feel a bit weird even
with perfect tire pressure.

> It's a
>different effect. I might bump the pressure a little bit... but these
>tires don't really seem to like higher pressure.


I believe that in general, the lower the pressure the better the potential
traction. But this is confounded by tire temperature, sidewall give, and
probably a million other mechanical effects.

>And the thing is, I'd love to do more pressure in the rear, but that also is
>where I get the max effect of "vague".


I do not understand why you would want much more pressure in the rear if you
already have much more camber there. As I said before, I am not at all a good
driver, but still, half a lb more in rear seems plenty to me.

>I also like the bad-boy look of these Toyos on the car. They just look
>right. I know that's dumb, but hey, sports cars are as much about feeling
>cool as they are about performance.


Absolutely. I have gotten comments on the bad look of my tires at gas
stations. Of course, the same sort of crowd also asks me where I got this
tail-pipe at traffic lights, assuming that Bozo's drag-racing performance
arises from that 5" Jackson-Racing tail pipe instead of a supercharger.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)
  #13  
Old September 5th 05, 04:11 PM
tooloud
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"josh" > wrote in message
news:1125439110.102371@sj-nntpcache-5...

<snip>

> FWIW some said these tires had wet traction nearly as good as their dry
> traction. No way. Their wet traction is maybe a hair better than the
> Falken Ziex ZE-512's that were on there before but nothing to write home
> about.


I've said this for years and have had a handful of people agree with me, but
I still see people claiming otherwise. I was seriously not impressed with
the wet-handling of the T1-S, though I found the dry-handling to be
everything I expected it to be.

<snip>

--
tooloud
Remove nothing to reply...


  #14  
Old September 6th 05, 01:28 PM
josh
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Leon van Dommelen wrote:

> Much more camber rear than I seemed to remember. Not that I am an expert
> in any sense, but the way I might think about it is that you have a well
> aligned car except for the missing camber front left. So if you make
> a strong right turn, initially the car "falls" flat on the front left tire
> thread, and you have best traction in front, oversteer. When the turn
> tightens, however, the front left starts to turn on the sidewall, while the
> thread of the left rear is now gripping the road flat. More grip at the
> rear so we now have oversteer.


More grip at the rear should be understeer.

So I would have initially suspected that the alignment was to blame, except
for the fact that my problem is oversteer, and the symptom of my faulty
alignment should be understeer in right corners.



>
>>b) at least have them match left/right on the front camber

>
>
> I tend to think the same thing. But at my age, the problem is not so much
> having the money to pay for a good alignment, but finding a shop that can
> do it.
>


Well aparently there's someone who could probably fix it for me if I got the
inclination to get it redone. I do have a "warranty" on the current
alignment (done at NTB, and I had to stand there and bird-dog it, call the
manager back in several times to remind them I paid extra for a "custom"
alignment, etc...). I really gave up on NTB. In all after driving it for a
while with these alignment specs, I think I would like a little bit of toe
out (which I can do myself if I can ever park it in a level place to work on
it) and also a lot more camber in the front.

But the reality is this: I commute in the car and it never sees any
opportunity to stress the handling. The tires, I think, are not up to the
task of making me feel like I'm driving a go-cart and neither are the shocks
or springs. But there are a couple of more pressing things to fix on this
car first. Once I get that taken care of, then I think I need to replace
the shocks and springs and THEN another alignment. Other than perhaps toe,
this car's aligned well enough to cover my commute.
  #15  
Old September 7th 05, 01:29 AM
Leon van Dommelen
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josh > wrote:

>Leon van Dommelen wrote:
>
>> Much more camber rear than I seemed to remember. Not that I am an expert
>> in any sense, but the way I might think about it is that you have a well
>> aligned car except for the missing camber front left. So if you make
>> a strong right turn, initially the car "falls" flat on the front left tire
>> thread, and you have best traction in front, oversteer. When the turn

------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^

>> tightens, however, the front left starts to turn on the sidewall, while the
>> thread of the left rear is now gripping the road flat. More grip at the
>> rear so we now have oversteer.

-----------------------^^^^^^^^^^

Of course this second oversteer should have been understeer. Geez. Have you
never heard of "The finger is still typing but the mind has already long
disengaged?"

>More grip at the rear should be understeer.
>
>So I would have initially suspected that the alignment was to blame, except
>for the fact that my problem is oversteer, and the symptom of my faulty
>alignment should be understeer in right corners.


I was arguing that according to theory you should have oversteer changing into
understeer, and that this might possibly explain why the car would feel vague.

Leon


>
>
>>
>>>b) at least have them match left/right on the front camber

>>
>>
>> I tend to think the same thing. But at my age, the problem is not so much
>> having the money to pay for a good alignment, but finding a shop that can
>> do it.
>>

>
>Well aparently there's someone who could probably fix it for me if I got the
>inclination to get it redone. I do have a "warranty" on the current
>alignment (done at NTB, and I had to stand there and bird-dog it, call the
>manager back in several times to remind them I paid extra for a "custom"
>alignment, etc...). I really gave up on NTB. In all after driving it for a
>while with these alignment specs, I think I would like a little bit of toe
>out (which I can do myself if I can ever park it in a level place to work on
>it) and also a lot more camber in the front.
>
>But the reality is this: I commute in the car and it never sees any
>opportunity to stress the handling. The tires, I think, are not up to the
>task of making me feel like I'm driving a go-cart and neither are the shocks
>or springs. But there are a couple of more pressing things to fix on this
>car first. Once I get that taken care of, then I think I need to replace
>the shocks and springs and THEN another alignment. Other than perhaps toe,
>this car's aligned well enough to cover my commute.

--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)
  #16  
Old September 7th 05, 01:48 PM
josh
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Leon van Dommelen wrote:

>
> I was arguing that according to theory you should have oversteer changing into
> understeer, and that this might possibly explain why the car would feel vague.
>


Well I figured you mistyped it ...

but just the same, by "vague" it's clearly sidewall flex, talking not during
the midst of a hard corner, but transitional/low-speed "nimbleness".

Anyhoo... there's just something entirely strange about this one corner.
The more I examine the problem, the more I become convinced it MUST be road
surface.

Yesterday on my drive home I went around that corner (again, it's one of
those right-turn-lane, 90-degree right turns), and I was going about maybe
15-20mph, I was behind a Ford Expedition! While in the middle of the turn,
I blipped the accelerator and the car instantly spun. Release the throttle
a little bit and I did actually hear a chirp of the outside rear tire as it
gripped again. But being able to just stretch out your right leg a little
bit and get the car to spin in a 20mph corner is very out of the ordinary.
  #17  
Old September 8th 05, 12:58 AM
Leon van Dommelen
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josh > wrote:

>Anyhoo... there's just something entirely strange about this one corner.
>The more I examine the problem, the more I become convinced it MUST be road
>surface.


Might there be an oil film on the surface? I have observed before that
very occasionally the T1-S seems to lose traction almost completely, and
I suspect that the tire compound has a problem with either coolant
or oil film on the road. A sharp turn might be a place where cars
could tend to drip some spilled oil from the last oil change. (The place
the problem tends to occur for me is at a slight incline in front of
a traffic light where cars might stand long enough for oil to drip off.)

>Yesterday on my drive home I went around that corner (again, it's one of
>those right-turn-lane, 90-degree right turns), and I was going about maybe
>15-20mph, I was behind a Ford Expedition! While in the middle of the turn,
>I blipped the accelerator and the car instantly spun. Release the throttle
>a little bit and I did actually hear a chirp of the outside rear tire as it
>gripped again. But being able to just stretch out your right leg a little
>bit and get the car to spin in a 20mph corner is very out of the ordinary.


Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)
 




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