GM in real trouble

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:18:26 -0700, "wtrplnet" >
wrote:

>>
>> Unfortunately, at least for Detroit, I bought my car for the next 10 years
>or
>> so from Subaru, because I wanted a fast car with all wheel drive that cost
>> around $24K. I'm not familiar with anything like that from Detroit.
>Maybe I
>> should have researched it more, but the Subaru WRX is well known from its
>> success on the World Rally Championship circuit, so I bought one.
>
>My ex has a WRX. She also has a 911, MGB-GT, VW Corrado, Jeep and who knows
>what else. She loves the WRX but complains about the quality of interior
>parts. I can live with mouse fur interiors if I get Carrera performance at
>1/3 the cost.
>
>Alan

Yeah, its a factory hot-rod, which is all I need.

And I've _never_ understood the complaints about "the interior". I actually
don't know what the hell people are talking about when they say that. About
the only thing wrong with the interior on my supposedly interior deficient WRX
is that there's not enough of it. The car is small. I mounted the GPS and the
display for my rally computer on a bridge over the clock that is sunken in the
dash, and then had no place to mount the control head for my Kenwood TM-V700A
ham radio. So, I had to buy some suction cup mounts and attach it to the glass
and mount it over the rear view mirror. There was no other place to put it
that wouldn't take my eyes completely off the road and having me looking
too-much inside the car. You can't put stuff a lot of places because of all the
ventilation holes that would be blocked, or the air bag that would make it a
deadly missle if it went off, etc.

Other than that, the whole car is very tight, no rattles, squeaks, etc. I can
get to the important controls pretty easily, see what I need to, etc. So, I
really don't know what they're talking about when they complain about the
Subaru interior.

Dave Head
>

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 05:15:26 GMT, zmike6 > wrote:

>The GM (and Ford) dealers themselves are a BIG part of the problem.
>It's not just product, it's the crummy service experience you get at
>many dealerships. This can range from (a) having to argue to get
>warranty service, especially on performance cars;

Yes, that's a problem I've experienced. They call the "regional
representative" who denies the service.

>(b) generally poor
>communication (dealer never calls me when car is ready, or to provide
>updates on repairs);

Or are slow about it - I had a Dodge that had brake rotors warped. I told them
that was the problem, told them the amount of runout, and brought the car in at
8:00 AM for service and then went on to work. Came back at about 3:30 PM, and
they were _just starting_ to "troubleshoot" it - after I already told 'em about
the warped rotors. I told 'em to just drive it out, I was leaving, and never
returned to that dealership, ever. Now, that was 15 years ago, and maybe
they've changed, but that was a seriously bad experience.

>(c) Problems dismissed as "normal operation",
>"could not duplicate", or otherwise not fixed properly, on the first
>service visit.

Yep. BTDT. Every time I think about buying an American car, this thing comes
to mind. Of course, _all_ this is past experience, and doesn't necessarily
mean that it is the same way today. A bad reputation is really hard to
overcome, tho.

> Want a ****ed off customer? Have him coming back
>multiple times for the same problem.
>
>Not all dealerships are bad, but many are. GM needs to dump dealers
>that provide poor customer service.

And then, if the cars are supposed to be competitive with the Japanese, which
it appears from independent sources that they are, _why_ don't they have
warranty terms to match? In 1991 I bought a '92 Mitsubishi Eclipse that had a
36,000 mile bumper to bumper, and 60,000 mile drive train warranty. Now, I
see that the Cadillac only has a 50,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty, 15
years after my Eclipse experience. Can't they do better than that? Don't they
believe in the quality of their products enough to offer a longer warranty?
Couldn't they at least go that extra 10,000 miles on the drive train to match
my Eclipse of 15 years ago? From Caddy, I'd be expecting a 100,000 mile
warranty in the year 2006. Infinity's 2006 basic coverage is 60,000 miles / 4
years, and powertrain is 72,000 miles and 72 months. Nothing soaks up bucks
like getting a car repaired any more, so why, why, why would Detroit skimp on
it?

Dave Head

Dave Head wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:18:26 -0700, "wtrplnet" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>>Unfortunately, at least for Detroit, I bought my car for the next 10 years
>>
>>or
>>
>>>so from Subaru, because I wanted a fast car with all wheel drive that cost
>>>around $24K. I'm not familiar with anything like that from Detroit.
>>
>>Maybe I
>>
>>>should have researched it more, but the Subaru WRX is well known from its
>>>success on the World Rally Championship circuit, so I bought one.
>>
>>My ex has a WRX. She also has a 911, MGB-GT, VW Corrado, Jeep and who knows
>>what else. She loves the WRX but complains about the quality of interior
>>parts. I can live with mouse fur interiors if I get Carrera performance at
>>1/3 the cost.
>>
>>Alan
>
>
> Yeah, its a factory hot-rod, which is all I need.
>
> And I've _never_ understood the complaints about "the interior". I actually
> don't know what the hell people are talking about when they say that. About
> the only thing wrong with the interior on my supposedly interior deficient WRX
> is that there's not enough of it. The car is small. I mounted the GPS and the
> display for my rally computer on a bridge over the clock that is sunken in the
> dash, and then had no place to mount the control head for my Kenwood TM-V700A
> ham radio. So, I had to buy some suction cup mounts and attach it to the glass
> and mount it over the rear view mirror. There was no other place to put it
> that wouldn't take my eyes completely off the road and having me looking
> too-much inside the car. You can't put stuff a lot of places because of all the
> ventilation holes that would be blocked, or the air bag that would make it a
> deadly missle if it went off, etc.
>
> Other than that, the whole car is very tight, no rattles, squeaks, etc. I can
> get to the important controls pretty easily, see what I need to, etc. So, I
> really don't know what they're talking about when they complain about the
> Subaru interior.
>
> Dave Head
>

The materials look cheap, and the layout of the gauges etc. scream
"Japanese economy car." Compare and contrast with a VW GTI's interior,
which ASSuming you get the leather (who wouldn't?) is clearly that of a
more expensive car - even though it probably costs less.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

In article >, Nate Nagel wrote:

-Subaru WRX-

> The materials look cheap, and the layout of the gauges etc. scream
> "Japanese economy car." Compare and contrast with a VW GTI's interior,
> which ASSuming you get the leather (who wouldn't?) is clearly that of a
> more expensive car - even though it probably costs less.

I saw one at the chicago auto show a couple years back. MSRP of 32K as I
recall, probably had everything on it. I got in, and it felt like I was
in a Japanese economy car from the 1980s. Of course I didn't fit well
either, but that's another story.

"Scott en Aztlán" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:39:41 -0700, "wtrplnet"
> > wrote:
>
> >The past few weeks I've been delivering cars for a detailing service in
an
> >upscale area of Orange County, CA. (Yes Scott, that was me in the
Carrera
> >'not' blocking the fast lane.)
>
> Was it silver, driving northbound on the 5 last night near San Juan
> Cap, doing 100 MPH in the right lane? You're right, I *did* see you!!
>

Sorry, most of the cars are delivered by 7:00. I'm careful with all the
cars, especially the hi-perf ones. That doesn't mean slow though.

> >I spend a lot of time at the Lexus dealer. There is a Cadillac dealer
right
> >across the street, it looks like a ghost town judging by foot traffic.
>
> Tustin Auto Center?

Yep.

And they're building a new HUGE Lexus dealer at Jamboree and MacArthur. I
doubt Fletcher Jones is too pleased about it.

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Dave Head wrote:
> > On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:18:26 -0700, "wtrplnet" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>Unfortunately, at least for Detroit, I bought my car for the next 10 years
> >>
> >>or
> >>
> >>>so from Subaru, because I wanted a fast car with all wheel drive that cost
> >>>around $24K. I'm not familiar with anything like that from Detroit.
> >>
> >>Maybe I
> >>
> >>>should have researched it more, but the Subaru WRX is well known from its
> >>>success on the World Rally Championship circuit, so I bought one.
> >>
> >>My ex has a WRX. She also has a 911, MGB-GT, VW Corrado, Jeep and who knows
> >>what else. She loves the WRX but complains about the quality of interior
> >>parts. I can live with mouse fur interiors if I get Carrera performance at
> >>1/3 the cost.
> >>
> >>Alan
> >
> >
> > Yeah, its a factory hot-rod, which is all I need.
> >
> > And I've _never_ understood the complaints about "the interior". I actually
> > don't know what the hell people are talking about when they say that. About
> > the only thing wrong with the interior on my supposedly interior deficient WRX
> > is that there's not enough of it. The car is small. I mounted the GPS and the
> > display for my rally computer on a bridge over the clock that is sunken in the
> > dash, and then had no place to mount the control head for my Kenwood TM-V700A
> > ham radio. So, I had to buy some suction cup mounts and attach it to the glass
> > and mount it over the rear view mirror. There was no other place to put it
> > that wouldn't take my eyes completely off the road and having me looking
> > too-much inside the car. You can't put stuff a lot of places because of all the
> > ventilation holes that would be blocked, or the air bag that would make it a
> > deadly missle if it went off, etc.
> >
> > Other than that, the whole car is very tight, no rattles, squeaks, etc. I can
> > get to the important controls pretty easily, see what I need to, etc. So, I
> > really don't know what they're talking about when they complain about the
> > Subaru interior.
> >
> > Dave Head
> >
>
> The materials look cheap,

I still don't understand "look cheap"...

> and the layout of the gauges etc. scream
> "Japanese economy car."

I understand that. Well, all I have to say is that I got a WRX for
$23,000, and something that didn't "look cheap" in this respect might
not actually _be_ cheap, either. Might have cost me another $2k or
something. I'll put up with this in order to have a $23K pocket
rocket.

> Compare and contrast with a VW GTI's interior,

OK, but I'm buying speed, not interior. This site:

http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html

shows Subaru WRX as 5.7 sec 0 - 60 with a 14.4 sec 1/4 mile time, and
the VW GTI 1.8 turbo at 6.5 and 15.2. The VW's price is fine, but then
again its only a 2 door, and a hatchback that I don't think looks as
good as my sedan-style WRX. So, one may look ugly on the outside, one
on the inside, but the Sube will blow the doors of the VW. Plus, it'll
do it in spades on a wet day, as the Sube is AWD, the VW is not.

> which ASSuming you get the leather (who wouldn't?)

I wouldn't. I've never seen the advantage in it. It seems to have
none, other than showing off for the neigbors. Otherwise, it appears
that it might even be _heavier_ than cloth, which will do nothing for
your 1/4 mile or solo II times.

> is clearly that of a
> more expensive car - even though it probably costs less.

It does cost less, but doesn't perform as well...


>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
> http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

wrote:
> Laura Bush murdered her boy friend wrote:
>
>> That "buy american" argument always has been BS. Why should i help a
>> company that doesn't care enough about me to give me the product i want?
>
> Damned, many of your past posts indicate you wouldn't buy a new car, so
> WTF does it matter if GM or any other company offers something you
> like?
>

Buy American means, American parts suppliers build in China. The only thing
American about GM is its history. I say buy Toyota, Honda assembled in
Virginia

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:19:37 -0500, (Brent
P) wrote:

>In article >, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>-Subaru WRX-
>
>> The materials look cheap, and the layout of the gauges etc. scream
>> "Japanese economy car." Compare and contrast with a VW GTI's interior,
>> which ASSuming you get the leather (who wouldn't?) is clearly that of a
>> more expensive car - even though it probably costs less.
>
>I saw one at the chicago auto show a couple years back. MSRP of 32K

That's an STI - blindingly fast...

> as I
>recall, probably had everything on it. I got in, and it felt like I was
>in a Japanese economy car from the 1980s.

Not if you press on the accelerator...

Dave Head

> Of course I didn't fit well
>either, but that's another story.

wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>>Dave Head wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:18:26 -0700, "wtrplnet" >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Unfortunately, at least for Detroit, I bought my car for the next 10 years
>>>>
>>>>or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>so from Subaru, because I wanted a fast car with all wheel drive that cost
>>>>>around $24K. I'm not familiar with anything like that from Detroit.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe I
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>should have researched it more, but the Subaru WRX is well known from its
>>>>>success on the World Rally Championship circuit, so I bought one.
>>>>
>>>>My ex has a WRX. She also has a 911, MGB-GT, VW Corrado, Jeep and who knows
>>>>what else. She loves the WRX but complains about the quality of interior
>>>>parts. I can live with mouse fur interiors if I get Carrera performance at
>>>>1/3 the cost.
>>>>
>>>>Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah, its a factory hot-rod, which is all I need.
>>>
>>>And I've _never_ understood the complaints about "the interior". I actually
>>>don't know what the hell people are talking about when they say that. About
>>>the only thing wrong with the interior on my supposedly interior deficient WRX
>>>is that there's not enough of it. The car is small. I mounted the GPS and the
>>>display for my rally computer on a bridge over the clock that is sunken in the
>>>dash, and then had no place to mount the control head for my Kenwood TM-V700A
>>>ham radio. So, I had to buy some suction cup mounts and attach it to the glass
>>>and mount it over the rear view mirror. There was no other place to put it
>>>that wouldn't take my eyes completely off the road and having me looking
>>>too-much inside the car. You can't put stuff a lot of places because of all the
>>>ventilation holes that would be blocked, or the air bag that would make it a
>>>deadly missle if it went off, etc.
>>>
>>>Other than that, the whole car is very tight, no rattles, squeaks, etc. I can
>>>get to the important controls pretty easily, see what I need to, etc. So, I
>>>really don't know what they're talking about when they complain about the
>>>Subaru interior.
>>>
>>>Dave Head
>>>
>>
>>The materials look cheap,
>
>
> I still don't understand "look cheap"...
>
>
>>and the layout of the gauges etc. scream
>>"Japanese economy car."
>
>
> I understand that. Well, all I have to say is that I got a WRX for
> $23,000, and something that didn't "look cheap" in this respect might
> not actually _be_ cheap, either. Might have cost me another $2k or
> something. I'll put up with this in order to have a $23K pocket
> rocket.
>
>
>>Compare and contrast with a VW GTI's interior,
>
>
> OK, but I'm buying speed, not interior. This site:
>
> http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html
>
> shows Subaru WRX as 5.7 sec 0 - 60 with a 14.4 sec 1/4 mile time, and
> the VW GTI 1.8 turbo at 6.5 and 15.2. The VW's price is fine, but then
> again its only a 2 door, and a hatchback that I don't think looks as
> good as my sedan-style WRX. So, one may look ugly on the outside, one
> on the inside, but the Sube will blow the doors of the VW. Plus, it'll
> do it in spades on a wet day, as the Sube is AWD, the VW is not.

Eh, I think the VW is good looking from the outside. You want AWD? how
about a nice R32? And as for the performance deficit, you are right -
VW spent their $$ on refinement, Subie spent their $$ on ass-kicking
power. Who's right? Depends on what you feel like that day.

Either one is more than fast enough to a) liquefy tires and b) get you
into more trouble than your lawyer really wants to deal with. Obviously
I'm a happy ex-GTI owner, and would still have the car today if my job
hadn't screwed me over a couple years ago. I'm not knocking the WRX,
far from it. I'm just saying that I think its interior looks cheap,
because, well, I do. I'm also biased towards German design, so anything
that looks too typically Japanese will tend to get a disapproving frown
from me.

(nate thinks how to explain the above sentence, should the girlie ever
read it. Shakes head in disgust, gives up.)

>
>
>>which ASSuming you get the leather (who wouldn't?)
>
>
> I wouldn't. I've never seen the advantage in it. It seems to have
> none, other than showing off for the neigbors. Otherwise, it appears
> that it might even be _heavier_ than cloth, which will do nothing for
> your 1/4 mile or solo II times.
>

But it doesn't look like ass in two years, which any car with cloth
seats invariably will if I am driving it. I'm hard on interiors. I
practically live in my car. Even when old and worn, leather still looks
good, and cleans easily. Cloth... looks like old, worn cloth. Probably
with coffee stains on it.

>
>>is clearly that of a
>>more expensive car - even though it probably costs less.
>
>
> It does cost less, but doesn't perform as well...

Like I said, different strokes.

Now what I want is a car that looks like a GTI, is as fast as a WRX, and
costs as much as a Cavalier. Oh, and it needs to be dead nuts
reliable, run on regular gas, and get at least 40 MPG. Can you make
that happen?

nate


--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

In article >, Dave Head wrote:

>>I saw one at the chicago auto show a couple years back. MSRP of 32K
> That's an STI - blindingly fast...

>> I got in, and it felt like I was in a Japanese economy car from the 1980s.
> Not if you press on the accelerator...


I could get the same basic interior and go fast with the right foot
experience out of my maverick for considerably less than $32,000.