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#91
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What about these gifts to Toyota
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > "Mark A" > wrote in message > ... > >>All this other stuff about economics is a smokescreen. Do you really think > > a > >>Northerner cares whether the South makes a big financial mistake and gives >>too many tax breaks and the government there goes bankrupt? No, they would >>love that. The Northerners only care when the Southerners start stealing >>their jobs. This is no different than if the job is offshore, because > > people > >>in the North hate Southerners just as much as they hate Mexican, or > > Indian, > >>or Chinese workers. >> > > > Please lift your eyes from your own parochial vision for a moment. > > For starters, most of these tax deals work something like this. The company > comes in, gets 6 years of property tax deferrals. Then at the end of the 6 > years the company tells the local government that if the local government > starts > taxing them at the normal rate, that they won't make money any longer, and > will have to close down the factory and move elsewhere. If the local > government > calls BS and refuses to extend the property tax deferrals anymore, than the > company does move - to the next local government that is willing to give > them > another 6 years of property tax deferrals. > > In manufacturing by the time 6 years has rolled around, all the machinery > in the plant is essentially obsolete anyway, the product matrix has changed, > and the workflow has also changed, it's just as easy to build a new plant > with > new machines & new workflow as it is to stay in the existing one and > renovate it. > > In the meantime the local infrastructure of homes, roads, police coverage > and so on, has to be paid for. And it's paid for by all of the homeowners > in > that municipality - the vast, vast majority of them NOT working for that > company, and NOT getting paid by it, and indeed, not even working at > businesses that have anything to do with it or it's employees. > > The politicians that approve these deals are not doing it as a result of > economic analysis. They are doing it as Resume-builders because 4 > years later they want to be running for some other political office and > they want to be able to point to job creation as their legacy. It's easy > to prove a decision you made created some jobs - but it's difficult to > prove that a decision a politician made ended some jobs. There's > even people still claiming that President Bush didn't make any decisions > that cost jobs, if you can believe it. > > The end result of all of this is for the municipality to manage things, > they have to raise property and income taxes to a high rate - or let > police coverage get lower, school funding get lower, etc. So you either > end up with a slapped-together housing tract that ends up decaying 20 > years later until the next hurricane comes through and the municipality > expects FEMA to pay for it, or you end up with housing tracts that > gentrify and price all of the young families out of town. > > Also in the meantime the federal government is making payments to > cities - you probably didn't know that the feds do this, didn't you - and > because the cities are running short the feds pay out more and more > money. Then the Federal deficit goes through the roof. > > However, the fact is that I really don't fault these manufacturing > businesses for doing this, and you know why? I'll tell you. It is because > every other civilized country in the world has nationalized healthcare, > and no other businesses anywhere else in the world have to fund > employee health care. As a result a business in the US already > out the door is competing with other businesses in other countries > that are getting giant government subsidies already - because their > employees are getting medical benefits from the government, not > the businesses. > > The entire system is screwed. When a municipality gives away tax > revenue to a company through property tax deferrals, that lost money > is made up elsewhere in the economy and people who derive no > direct benefit from that company end up paying for it. Just as > the employees of the company getting the deferral are paying for > other companies deferrals that they derive no benefit from either. > > The entire system is socialist, not capitalist. And the people claiming > that it's majority rule are lying. The fact is the vast majority of these > property tax deferral deals only become public well after the fact, > too late for any organized resistance to make it's case to the public > to stop the deal. Sure, the newspaper may run a few articles about > the great government giveaway and a few disgruntled taxpayers may > write letters, but by the time the next election happens, it's done and > forgotten. > > Oh sure, if you don't like it you can move to another country. But > most other civilized countries are also socialist these days. So you > gain nothing, really - except that you likely don't have to listen to these > deluded fools like yourself who continue to claim that the US > federal, state & local governments are NOT socialist. > > Ted Nicely descibed: a race to the bottom. |
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#92
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What about these gifts to Toyota
"Mark A" > wrote in message
... > "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message > ... >> In Long Island many years ago, farm land used for cabbage & potatoes was >> being assessed at rates meant for McMansion developments and fancy >> vineyards. It was driving farmers out of business until the law was >> changed. >> >> No more generalizations, please. > > All observation about economics and politics is generalization. This is > especially true in a Republic like the USA, where we have state and local > governments that can do different things (much to the consternation of the > left who are basically totalitarians). > > In the specific cases we are discussing, where companies are building > plants in the Southern part of the USA, I can assure you that things are > quite different than in Long Island NY (where the poor Walmart temporary > worker was crushed to death by the barbarians who live there). > > In Mississippi, and other places in the South where manufacturers have > received tax breaks for building plants, the proposed land site yielded > extremely low property taxes before the factories were built there. So > there were no taxes to give away, because the companies would not build > there without the tax break. > > But in reality, this whole argument has nothing to do with taxes or > economics, it is about race and regional warfare. Those in the Northern > parts of the US are at war with the South. Northerners believe that those > from the south (white or black) are inferior intellectually, and the > Northerners don't like it when the South starts stealing the manufacturing > base away from them. > > All this other stuff about economics is a smokescreen. Do you really think > a Northerner cares whether the South makes a big financial mistake and > gives too many tax breaks and the government there goes bankrupt? No, they > would love that. The Northerners only care when the Southerners start > stealing their jobs. This is no different than if the job is offshore, > because people in the North hate Southerners just as much as they hate > Mexican, or Indian, or Chinese workers. > Yeah. I woke up this morning and my first thought was about how much I hate people from particular locations. |
#93
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What about these gifts to Toyota
JoeSpareBedroom wrote: > "Mark A" > wrote in message > ... > > "News" > wrote in message > > t... > >> Yes, and less taxes, less services, less disposable income, less charity, > >> less, less, less, less. > >> > >> Enjoy your race to the bottom. First one there loses, big time. > > > > How can it be less? When there was nothing but farm land or undeveloped > > (and untaxed) land there is no real estate tax, no sales tax, no payroll, > > no economic development. > > That's a pretty big generalization there, Marky boy. Are you saying that > farm land and undeveloped land are not subject to assessment and taxation? Taxes on regular land can be decreased through a rent-u-cow service. One local person who saved money this way was Kemper Marley, a liquor magnate, murderer (including by bomb), and good buddy of Cindy McCain's family: http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tw/05-27-99/mailbag.htm Yes, it says, "strategically placed cows." Another tax loophole we had here exempted homes from all property taxes, provided their owners parked their airplanes there. |
#94
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What about these gifts to Toyota
Mark A wrote: > All observation about economics and politics is generalization. This is > especially true in a Republic like the USA, where we have state and local > governments that can do different things (much to the consternation of the > left who are basically totalitarians). Heavy alcohol consumption in the morning causes the absurd to appear rational to its writer. |
#95
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What about these gifts to Toyota
Mike Hunter wrote: > "Gosi" > wrote in message > ... > > It is as always a question of demand and supply. > > In new companies you can hire in a lot of less qualified workers and > > most of the job is done by robots. > > In GM introducing robots did not allow management to make the same > > cost reductions because of contracts with unions done in the past. > You have no concept of how vehicles are made today or how GM operates, if > that is what you believe. Back in the mid 1980s, former GM chairman Roger Smith boasted that Saturns would be produced in a "lights out" factory, meaning a totally automated one. By saying that, did Smith demonstrate having a realistic concept of how Saturns were going to be made in the early 1990s, when the factory started production? |
#96
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What about these gifts to Toyota
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: > I don't support welfare, public or corporate. In practice you do, unless you pay no taxes. |
#97
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What about these gifts to Toyota
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: > GM builds cars for $75 an hour, wages and benefits. That widely-quoted figure is wrong. |
#98
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What about these gifts to Toyota
larry moe 'n curly wrote: > > Mike Hunter wrote: > > >>"Gosi" > wrote in message ... > > >>>It is as always a question of demand and supply. >>>In new companies you can hire in a lot of less qualified workers and >>>most of the job is done by robots. >>>In GM introducing robots did not allow management to make the same >>>cost reductions because of contracts with unions done in the past. > > >>You have no concept of how vehicles are made today or how GM operates, if >>that is what you believe. > > > Back in the mid 1980s, former GM chairman Roger Smith boasted that > Saturns would be produced in a "lights out" factory, meaning a totally > automated one. By saying that, did Smith demonstrate having a > realistic concept of how Saturns were going to be made in the early > 1990s, when the factory started production? More like a vision of how every GM and Cerberus plant will be if the bailout fails.... "lights out". |
#99
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What about these gifts to Toyota
Nate Nagel wrote: > If Joe Blow is making $40/hr to work on an assembly line, that is a > problem. That's $83,200 a year. That's certainly unsustainable when > plenty of people more skilled/educated aren't making that much. Check Lincoln Electric's production workers and how a decreasing- piecework pay system can greatly increase worker output. > Hell, I don't make that much, and housing prices etc. here are at least 4x here > what they are in Detroit. I didn't make that much as an engineer at a > Michigan-based auto industry supplier, either. And the typical Roto-Rooter franchise holder makes more than the average air conditioning mechanic, despite the latter's need for a much higher level of skill. That's why that hero of the libertarians and conservatives, Adam Smith, said that the free market wasn't the answer to all economics matters. |
#100
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What about these gifts to Toyota
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:06:24 -0500, News wrote: > > The "race to the bottom" is a general theme. Applies widely, outside > > the auto industry. You see it everywhere outsourcing is involved. You > > see it when New Jersey subsidizes the move of Wall Street jobs across > > the river. > > > > Howe about YOUR job? Is it immune? > > Yup! I fix what the Chinese screw up. Board swapping != fixing |
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