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Braking in New Handbrake shoes and Disks



 
 
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  #81  
Old March 20th 05, 07:10 PM
Michael Low
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Unlike the 3er the 540i doesn't work very well with heel-&-toe
technique. Firstly, the pedals are not well-located. This issue has
been debated thoroughly on the ROADFLY.COM newsgroup so you can look
for yourself. Most people seem to roll their ankles to the left and
use the ball of their feet. But it doesn't always work. I place the
heel of my foot on the brakes and point right towards the throttle with
my toes. My feet are otherwise too narrow to bridge the pedals with a
rolling action. All of this can be vastly improved with some
modifications and new pedals. Unfortunately, there's another problem.

The other unfortunate part about the E39's design has nothing to do
with the pedals. It's the electronic throttle control. This issue has
also been debated on the ROADFLY.COM newsgroup. The throttle-blipping
response in the 540 is severely muted because BMW chose to design the
throttle to allow it to obtain a more favourable EPA gas mileage
rating. Blipping the throttle in the 540i is very tricky business. It
isn't predictable because it's not mechanical - the electronics decide
if they should respond under a broader set of conditions, of which I
have little clue to. It's better in the I-6 models as they seem less
restricted by this throttle design but even they are not as responsive
as older BMWs. Which E39 model do you drive?

FWIW, because I trained on a 3er I sometimes heel-&-toe instinctively
in my 540i but I don't bother to do it consciously because the throttle
response to blipping is so unpredictable - no sense unsettling the car
when the revs don't match anyway. In any case, the torque from the
V-8, post-corner, is so abundant that I can afford to take my corners a
bit slower than I would have in a 3er. I just try to drive smoothly
with a reserve of power in case I have to maneuver out of harm's way.
I don't race on the streets.

If you want to debate what I say I would prefer to direct you to the
pros and other people on ROADFLY.COM. Otherwise, it just becomes an
issue of my opinion against yours. I have said all I care to on this
particular topic. Here's a good webpage by pros on heel-&-toe:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/heelandtoe.html

"...Heel Toe cannot be done smoothly unless two things are done:

1) The pedals must be matched. Normally this is done by adjusting until
the brake and throttle are even in height, when the brakes are pressed
on. The pedals must also be properly spaced. In my car it required
adjusting and bending the gas pedal until I got the match I needed. In
many cars, the pedals have some range of adjustment, making the process
easier. One thing to remember, as you adjust the gas pedal, make sure
that there is a mechanical stop for the pedal. If you rely on the stops
in the carburetor or injection system to stop the motion, you will
probably bend or break something as you try to squeeze a couple more
horsepower out of the pedal. Also, make sure the linkage allows the
butterflies in the carburetor to be fully open when the pedal hits your
mechanical stop.

...."

Ads
  #82  
Old March 20th 05, 07:25 PM
Michael Low
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Yes, you're right. My bad. That would be an interesting point
regarding the manual CTS models.

I haven't tested those cars as their interiors are too plain and I am
only looking for an upscale roadster anyway. I imagine the CTS brake
pedal would work OK if it has a convenient hand-operated release.

  #83  
Old March 21st 05, 02:15 AM
Daniel Arrepas
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"Michael Low" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Unlike the 3er the 540i doesn't work very well with heel-&-toe
> technique. Firstly, the pedals are not well-located. This issue has
> been debated thoroughly on the ROADFLY.COM newsgroup


It's interesting that you and the Roadfly mailers find a difference between
the 3 and 5 pedal location and setup. Because there is none (between the e46
and e39) the E60 is different from the E46, but the E90 will be exactly the
same as the E60). Good ahead, check it out. Put one car right next to the
other and check out location, center and disparity between pedal edge
distances and you will find that BMW uses the exact same pedal setup between
the two cars. It wasn't like this before, but starting with the E39/E46 BMW
used the same series of measurements between each car's pedal setup.

Really, don't take my word for it. Take the time and check out the two cars
side by side. I imagine it will surprise you.

> The other unfortunate part about the E39's design has nothing to do
> with the pedals. It's the electronic throttle control. This issue has
> also been debated on the ROADFLY.COM newsgroup. The throttle-blipping
> response in the 540 is severely muted because BMW chose to design the
> throttle to allow it to obtain a more favourable EPA gas mileage
> rating. Blipping the throttle in the 540i is very tricky business.


Not for me, never has been, and not for any magazine I have ever read (not
that I have great respect for magazines but I imagine they are as reliable
as Roadfly when it comes to supporting cites). The entire E39 line-up was
renowned for the throttle tip-in and the control it allowed. Neither of my
e39's behaved anything at all similar to your discription. In fact, I
believe of all the things people complain about in the E60, the thing they
most often miss, particularly American commentators and reporters, is that
the throttle tip-in on the 545 has fallen far from the superb 540.

This is my single greatest disappointment with the new Hooydonk cars. BMW's
famous, renowned throttle tip-in has for some reason been abandoned for
muddled technology and computer mapping. I have been told it is even worse
in the auto tranny cars because the mapping in the transmissions is equally
muddled so you get 2x's the issue.

> If you want to debate what I say I would prefer to direct you to the
> pros and other people on ROADFLY.COM. Otherwise, it just becomes an
> issue of my opinion against yours.


It is an opinion issue between you and me. Comments on Roadfly don't
supercede my own experience of 7 years with E39's. The throttle control is
splendid and the pedal setup superb. There's just no way around that other
than the individual physical parameters of the human driving the car.


  #84  
Old March 21st 05, 07:31 AM
Michael Low
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I don't think you would disagree that the 3er has always been more
lively to drive than the 5er. If you dig a bit you will also find the
E36 to be a better driver's car than the E46. The E46 is widely
considered as somewhat of a disappointment - too heavy and bloated with
electronics.

I used to own an E30 and the difference in handling and ease of use
between it and the E39 was incredible. However, the E30 was not as
comfortable on long trips and I needed a car that can do regular 5 or 6
hour drives without causing any fatigue.

Some of your comments about the E39 and the 540 appear contrary to
general opinions and my own experience. The I-6 versions of the E39
are way easier to drive and much more of a driver's car. The 540 has
shortcomings with its clutch, throttle and steering. Still, I like the
540 better because it's more effortless on the highway and more of a
challenge when I feel like playing. Have you heard of an item called
the CDV?

I've only tested a Steptronic 545 so I can't make a direct comparison
but if you think the tip-in of the 540i is great you should try the
tip-in of the 6-speed E60 530i. It is astounding by comparison. In
any case, I was not referring to tip-in in my earlier post. I was
referring to blipping the engine to rev-match when exiting a corner.
Since the car is in motion and the engine is already at speed, the
electronic throttle does not behave in the same way as when you are at
rest or under different conditions.

I do not like electronic throttles. The mechanical throttle of my E30
was immediate and always responded in exact doses to input - heel-&-toe
rev-matching was a joy and a snap. The only downside was the twin-mass
flywheel. BMW did not always use a twin-mass flywheel? I also had
that.

I am not trying to disprove your own success with your BMWs but I am
just pointing out that other people have problems with the E39,
especially the 540 clutch and throttle. The tips on pedal placement
from the pros is just what it is - good advice on how to set up the
pedals for heel-&-toe. Whether it is relevant to you depends on how
those suggestions match the pedal placement in your cars.

  #85  
Old March 21st 05, 06:27 PM
Jeff Strickland
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"Michael Low" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> > "Michael Low" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...

>
> <snip>
>
> > >
> > > So your car slid back more than 3 inches, right? Does that mean

> you
> > > often roll back 3 inches on a hill start and not have an accident
> > > because the cars behind were otherwise farther than 3 inches from

> your
> > > rear bumper?
> > >

> >
> > No, LESS than 3 inches. The car behind was "within 3 inches", that

> means
> > closer. The car stopped too close to me. And, it was when I was first
> > driving, and I can start my car on a hill today without rolling at

> all.
> >
> >

>
>
> Hmm. So you were in your driver's seat and you were sure the bumper of
> the car behind was "less than 3 inches" from your bumper. Interesting.
>
>


Well, yes, since it took so short a distance to actually hit the other car.
If I didn't roll more than 3 inches, then the car must have been closer than
3 inches. The fact that this needs explaining is interesting ...




>
> <snip>
> > >
> > > Did it not occur to you that you would have not slid into that car

> if
> > > you had applied your handbrake?
> > >
> > >

> >
> > Cars had no handbrake at the time. American cars never had hand

> brakes until
> > they started appearing in the last 15 years or so.

>
>
> Ever wondered why they started to appear in American cars?
>
>


Cost down? Ease of use? Any number of other reasons.




> >

> <snip>
> > >
> > > Be careful about teaching your children how to drive.
> > >
> > > It is often better to have them learn from a good professional
> > > instructor. A parent's self-esteem often gets in the way when

> teaching
> > > a child. Doesn't happen in every case but it can confuse the task.
> > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> > You are full of ****.
> >

>
>
> Well, you just proved my point.
>
>


You are full of ****. I have no self-esteem issues, and both of my kids can
drive just fine. They began driving at the tender age of 12 when I bought my
Jeep.




> >
> >
> >

> <snip>
> >
> > >
> > > It's not HP Jeff. It's torque. What matters at low speeds is

> torque,
> > > not HP. Unlike what Fred quoted, it's also not peak torque but

> low-end
> > > torque that is relevant here.
> > >
> > > And it was important to include the words "manual transmission"

> because
> > > it would be a non-issue if my car had an automatic transmission.

> Get
> > > it?
> > >
> > >
> > >

> > I get it completely. It is you that can't drive without a crutch. You

> said
> > that I must not drive a manual, and I assumed you thought I drove an
> > automatic. That was my mistake, it appears that your point was the

> weight
> > and the power, not the transmission.

>
>
> Actually I did not say you drove an automatic. But never mind.
>
>


I said that. Yo said something that I took to mean that I drove an
automatic, when I went back and reviewed, I noticed you didn't say that at
all. Your point was the weight and power, not the transmission. But
nevermind ...





> >
> > The only driver that I ever rode with that used his handbrake on a

> hill also
> > thought he had to depress the clutch at freeway speeds before he

> could use
> > the brake. He thought the motor would stall unless the clutch was

> used. He
> > also didn't believe that if he simply took his foot off the gas

> earlier, he
> > could avoid using the brakes in most cases.

>
>
> Can't comment too much on your friend but I also observe that most
> drivers over here use their brakes unnecessarily when they can just
> coast without throttle to slow down on the freeway. In many cases, it
> does not matter if they were driving an automatic because I notice the
> same thing even when I am driving my truck, which has an automatic
> transmission.
>
> However, none of this has nothing to do with using the handbrake in
> hill starts.
>
>


Except that the same guy that used the handbrake to start on a hill also
used the clutch at freeway speeds because he feared that not using it would
stall the engine. He was not very good with his clutch, AND he used the hand
brake for hill starts. Given his inability to understand exactly how and
when the engine would stall, his use of the hand brake at a time when I have
never used it only tells me that this is not a common practice.



> <snip>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Normally I am happy to let people try my cars but if you are in the
> > > habit of slipping the clutch unnecessarily then I'd probably

> decline,
> > > I'm sure you'll understand.
> > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> > I don't slip the clutch. My clutch is original with 210,000 miles on

> it. I
> > am quite sure that I use it properly.
> >

>
>
> For a '94 - that's not bad at all.
>


Precisely my point.




  #86  
Old March 21st 05, 10:40 PM
Daniel Arrepas
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"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Low" > wrote in message


>>> Cars had no handbrake at the time. American cars never had hand
>>> brakes until they started appearing in the last 15 years or so.

>>
>>
>> Ever wondered why they started to appear in American cars?
>>
>>

>
> Cost down? Ease of use? Any number of other reasons.


Come on Jeff, that couldn't be the reason. It has to be because for more
than 75 years no one in America was able to drive up a hill. And damn it, we
wanted to drive up a hill just like the rest of the world!


 




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