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#21
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
grinder wrote:
> "Fred W" > wrote in message > . .. > >>grinder wrote: >> >>>"Fred W" > wrote in message om... >>> >>> >>>>grinder wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcast .com... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>grinder wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends. >>>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to the >>>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me and >>>>>>>I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to me. I >>>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had to >>>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the >>>>>>>4Runner is more responsive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. Maybe >>>>>>>adding tower braces will help. >>>>>> >>>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car and >>>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one. >>>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>-Fred W >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on the >>>>>road and improving cornering performance. >>>> >>>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said you >>>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or >>>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really >>>>change the feeling of the electric assist. >>>> >>>>-- >>>>-Fred W >>> >>> >>>I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was >>>describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish (not >>>unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a SLK >>>but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata. >> >>I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term >>"understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers that >>you are getting. >> >>Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car >>wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside of >>the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer is >>exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car >>toward the inside of the corner. >> >> These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and >>dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do with >>the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio. >> >>-- >>-Fred W > > > From a review: > > "In fact, if there's a fault to be found with the Z4's handling, it's the > opposite: The rear sticks longer than necessary (read "understeer")." > > Correct, just as I said above. And this has zero to do with the electric steering assist. -- -Fred W |
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#22
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
grinder wrote:
> "adder1969" > wrote in message > oups.com... > >>On Mar 15, 2:24 pm, "grinder" > wrote: >> >>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>> om... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>grinder wrote: >>>> >>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>>news:ftqdnROx0ds4CGjYnZ2dnUVZ_o6gnZ2d@comcast .com... >>> >>>>>>grinder wrote: >>> >>>>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comca st.com... >>> >>>>>>>>grinder wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends. >>>>>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner. >>> >>>>>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to >>>>>>>>>the >>>>>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me >>>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>>I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to me. >>>>>>>>>I >>>>>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had to >>>>>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the >>>>>>>>>4Runner is more responsive. >>> >>>>>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. >>>>>>>>>Maybe >>>>>>>>>adding tower braces will help. >>> >>>>>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car >>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one. >>> >>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>>-Fred W >>> >>>>>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on >>>>>>>the >>>>>>>road and improving cornering performance. >>> >>>>>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said >>>>>>you >>>>>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or >>>>>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really >>>>>>change the feeling of the electric assist. >>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>-Fred W >>> >>>>>I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was >>>>>describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish >>>>>(not >>>>>unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a >>>>>SLK >>>>>but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata. >>> >>>>I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term >>>>"understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers >>>>that >>>>you are getting. >>> >>>>Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car >>>>wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside >>>>of >>>>the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer >>>>is >>>>exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car >>>>toward the inside of the corner. >>> >>>> These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and >>>>dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do >>>>with >>>>the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio. >>> >>>>-- >>>>-Fred W >>> >>>From another review (this happened to me): >>> >>>Out on the fabulous Jerez circuit, the dull steering doesn't really dent >>>your progress, but the Z4 M's quite pronounced understeer does. If you >>>misjudge your entry speed it's not easy to rein it in and exit the corner >>>cleanly. Through the slower corners particularly you have to work hard to >>>keep it neat and tidy.- Hide quoted text - >>> >>>- Show quoted text - >> >> >>Yes but you say the problem is the wheels don't turn as quickly as you >>want them to, not that the front end was losing traction. >> >> > > > I never said the front end was losing traction. I described understeer > ("That almost happened to me. I came into a corner a little hot, I turned > the wheel and then had to quickly compensate for the understeer.") . Now I > think the electric assist steering is not the problem. The problem is the > way the car is set up. > > From another review: > > "Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always understeer, > understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and faster, > understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the more > understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs rear-wheel-drive and an > engine locating behind the front axle to create an understeerer. " > > Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before. > Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive the > car hard enough to realize the problem. > > Yes. The car understeers. But your complaint was the electric assist. Know how I know this to be true? Read the subject line (above) that you entered. -- -Fred W |
#23
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
"Floyd Rogers" > wrote in message ... > "grinder" > wrote >> "Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always >> understeer, understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and >> faster, understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the >> more understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs >> rear-wheel-drive and an engine locating behind the front axle to create >> an understeerer. " >> >> Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before. >> Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive >> the car hard enough to realize the problem. > > It's been very well discussed that BMW sets up their cars (indeed, *EVERY* > car manufacturer does this) for understeer as the primary response, > because > it's *generally* safer for most drivers. Even cars whose basic design > (rear > or mid-engined) would be expected to exhibit oversteer have tuned their > cars to exhibit understeer. > My rear engined '65 Corvair could be set up to oversteer by changing the stock 15F, 27R tire pressures to about 30F, 30R. Of course, a 10 mph side wind would then blow the car off the road at any speed over 35 mph, but when you're young and adventurous... > You just haven't looked for articles discussing this. You're right - Grinder needs to get out more. Just about every Road & Track BMW test indicates "mild" as opposed to "moderate" or "heavy" understeer and usually describes BMW steering as excellent. Tom K. |
#24
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
"Fred W" > wrote in message . .. > grinder wrote: >> "Fred W" > wrote in message >> . .. >> >>>grinder wrote: >>> >>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>news:ftqdnROx0ds4CGjYnZ2dnUVZ_o6gnZ2d@comcast. com... >>>> >>>> >>>>>grinder wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcas t.com... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>grinder wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends. >>>>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to >>>>>>>>the understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to >>>>>>>>me and I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened >>>>>>>>to me. I came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and >>>>>>>>then had to quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it >>>>>>>>but the 4Runner is more responsive. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. Maybe >>>>>>>>adding tower braces will help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car >>>>>>>and buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>-Fred W >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on >>>>>>the road and improving cornering performance. >>>>> >>>>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said >>>>>you did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or >>>>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really >>>>>change the feeling of the electric assist. >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>-Fred W >>>> >>>> >>>>I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was >>>>describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish (not >>>>unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a SLK >>>>but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata. >>> >>>I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term >>>"understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers that >>>you are getting. >>> >>>Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car >>>wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside of >>>the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer is >>>exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car >>>toward the inside of the corner. >>> >>> These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and >>> dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do with >>> the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio. >>> >>>-- >>>-Fred W >> >> >> From a review: >> >> "In fact, if there's a fault to be found with the Z4's handling, it's the >> opposite: The rear sticks longer than necessary (read "understeer")." > > Correct, just as I said above. And this has zero to do with the electric > steering assist. > > -- > -Fred W You're right - I was wrong. Unfortunately unlike many members in this group I recognized a flaw in the Z4's handling and attributed it to the electrical assist steering. I should have attributed to the design of the suspension. In any case. The understeer is still present regardless of the source. |
#25
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
"Fred W" > wrote in message . .. > grinder wrote: >> "adder1969" > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> >>>On Mar 15, 2:24 pm, "grinder" > wrote: >>> >>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>> >>>>news:TLidnYNt9rfhfWrYnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@comcast. com... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>grinder wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>>>news:ftqdnROx0ds4CGjYnZ2dnUVZ_o6gnZ2d@comcas t.com... >>>> >>>>>>>grinder wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>>>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comc ast.com... >>>> >>>>>>>>>grinder wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on >>>>>>>>>>weekends. >>>>>>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to >>>>>>>>>>the >>>>>>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me >>>>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>>>I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to >>>>>>>>>>me. I >>>>>>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had >>>>>>>>>>to >>>>>>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the >>>>>>>>>>4Runner is more responsive. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. >>>>>>>>>>Maybe >>>>>>>>>>adding tower braces will help. >>>> >>>>>>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car >>>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one. >>>> >>>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>>>-Fred W >>>> >>>>>>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on >>>>>>>>the >>>>>>>>road and improving cornering performance. >>>> >>>>>>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said >>>>>>>you >>>>>>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or >>>>>>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really >>>>>>>change the feeling of the electric assist. >>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>-Fred W >>>> >>>>>>I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was >>>>>>describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish >>>>>>(not >>>>>>unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a >>>>>>SLK >>>>>>but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata. >>>> >>>>>I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term >>>>>"understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers >>>>>that >>>>>you are getting. >>>> >>>>>Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car >>>>>wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside >>>>>of >>>>>the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer >>>>>is >>>>>exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car >>>>>toward the inside of the corner. >>>> >>>>> These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and >>>>>dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do >>>>>with >>>>>the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio. >>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>-Fred W >>>> >>>>From another review (this happened to me): >>>> >>>>Out on the fabulous Jerez circuit, the dull steering doesn't really dent >>>>your progress, but the Z4 M's quite pronounced understeer does. If you >>>>misjudge your entry speed it's not easy to rein it in and exit the >>>>corner >>>>cleanly. Through the slower corners particularly you have to work hard >>>>to >>>>keep it neat and tidy.- Hide quoted text - >>>> >>>>- Show quoted text - >>> >>> >>>Yes but you say the problem is the wheels don't turn as quickly as you >>>want them to, not that the front end was losing traction. >>> >>> >> >> >> I never said the front end was losing traction. I described understeer >> ("That almost happened to me. I came into a corner a little hot, I >> turned the wheel and then had to quickly compensate for the understeer.") >> . Now I think the electric assist steering is not the problem. The >> problem is the way the car is set up. >> >> From another review: >> >> "Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always >> understeer, understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and >> faster, understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the >> more understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs >> rear-wheel-drive and an engine locating behind the front axle to create >> an understeerer. " >> >> Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before. >> Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive >> the car hard enough to realize the problem. > > Yes. The car understeers. But your complaint was the electric assist. > Know how I know this to be true? Read the subject line (above) that you > entered. > > -- > -Fred W You're right. I was wrong to attribute it to electrical assist steering. That should make you feel better. Unfortunately the understeer is still there regardless of the source. |
#26
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
"Floyd Rogers" > wrote in message ... > "grinder" > wrote >> "adder1969" > wrote >>> Yes but you say the problem is the wheels don't turn as quickly as you >>> want them to, not that the front end was losing traction. >> >> I never said the front end was losing traction. I described understeer >> ("That almost happened to me. I came into a corner a little hot, I >> turned the wheel and then had to quickly compensate for the understeer.") >> . Now I think the electric assist steering is not the problem. The >> problem is the way the car is set up. >> >> From another review: >> >> "Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always >> understeer, understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and >> faster, understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the >> more understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs >> rear-wheel-drive and an engine locating behind the front axle to create >> an understeerer. " >> >> Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before. >> Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive >> the car hard enough to realize the problem. > > It's been very well discussed that BMW sets up their cars (indeed, *EVERY* > car manufacturer does this) for understeer as the primary response, > because > it's *generally* safer for most drivers. Even cars whose basic design > (rear > or mid-engined) would be expected to exhibit oversteer have tuned their > cars to exhibit understeer. > > You just haven't looked for articles discussing this. > > FloydR > It's a matter of degree. I have not found any articles referring to understeer in Boxsters or the Toyota 2000 but have countless on the topic for Z4s. And you are wrong. I have looked for Articles on this. Truth of the matter is you are grouping "most cars" when the topic at hand is a handful of sports cars. |
#27
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
"Tom K." > wrote in message . .. > > "Floyd Rogers" > wrote in message > ... >> "grinder" > wrote >>> "Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always >>> understeer, understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and >>> faster, understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the >>> more understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs >>> rear-wheel-drive and an engine locating behind the front axle to create >>> an understeerer. " >>> >>> Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before. >>> Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive >>> the car hard enough to realize the problem. >> >> It's been very well discussed that BMW sets up their cars (indeed, >> *EVERY* >> car manufacturer does this) for understeer as the primary response, >> because >> it's *generally* safer for most drivers. Even cars whose basic design >> (rear >> or mid-engined) would be expected to exhibit oversteer have tuned their >> cars to exhibit understeer. >> > My rear engined '65 Corvair could be set up to oversteer by changing the > stock 15F, 27R tire pressures to about 30F, 30R. Of course, a 10 mph side > wind would then blow the car off the road at any speed over 35 mph, but > when you're young and adventurous... > >> You just haven't looked for articles discussing this. > > You're right - Grinder needs to get out more. > Just about every Road & Track BMW test indicates "mild" as opposed to > "moderate" or "heavy" understeer and usually describes BMW steering as > excellent. > > Tom K. > The problem is you are looking at ALL BMWs. I am concentrating on the Z4. It's unfortunate Homers are unable to recognize understeer much less too afraid to put a car into that type of situation. Try google - 18000 hits on Z4 and understeer. Took me less than 2 minutes to find (by the way, nobody referred to as the understeer as an excellent attribute). "This sensory satellite delay does little to bring you in phase with the Z4's responses, and combined with the numb electrically-assisted (a first for a BMW), non-linear steering and the chassis' tendency towards steady-state understeer, it's no wonder things can feel slightly out of kilter when you're pressing on." "Sadly, when we pitched it against the Porsche Cayman S (097), it revealed a propensity for understeer and a confidence-denting sense of disunity between the front and rear ends. " "Out on the fabulous Jerez circuit, the dull steering doesn't really dent your progress, but the Z4 M's quite pronounced understeer does. " "Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always understeer, understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and faster, understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the more understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs rear-wheel-drive and an engine locating behind the front axle to create an understeerer. " |
#28
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
"grinder" > wrote
> "Floyd Rogers" > wrote >> "grinder" > wrote > ... >>> Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before. >>> Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive >>> the car hard enough to realize the problem. >> >> It's been very well discussed that BMW sets up their cars (indeed, >> *EVERY* >> car manufacturer does this) for understeer as the primary response, >> because >> it's *generally* safer for most drivers. Even cars whose basic design >> (rear >> or mid-engined) would be expected to exhibit oversteer have tuned their >> cars to exhibit understeer. >> >> You just haven't looked for articles discussing this. > > It's a matter of degree. I have not found any articles referring to > understeer in Boxsters or the Toyota 2000 but have countless on the topic > for Z4s. > > And you are wrong. I have looked for Articles on this. Truth of the > matter is you are grouping "most cars" when the topic at hand is a handful > of sports cars. I may have been confusing rec.autos.driving postings with postings here - I've certainly seen many postings on this matter. However, you are wrong if you think that a Boxster (my wife has one) does not understeer - at least for initial and middling responses. My NSX understeered. Modern Porsche 911's are tuned for understeer - although if you go to the limit it oversteers. My statement stands that all cars (including BMWs) understeer. FloydR |
#29
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
grinder wrote:
> "Fred W" > wrote in message > . .. > >>grinder wrote: >> >>>"adder1969" > wrote in message egroups.com... >>> >>> >>>>On Mar 15, 2:24 pm, "grinder" > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>> >>>>>news:TLidnYNt9rfhfWrYnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@comcast .com... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>grinder wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>>>>news:ftqdnROx0ds4CGjYnZ2dnUVZ_o6gnZ2d@comca st.com... >>>>> >>>>>>>>grinder wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message >>>>>>>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@com cast.com... >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>grinder wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on >>>>>>>>>>>weekends. >>>>>>>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to >>>>>>>>>>>the >>>>>>>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me >>>>>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>>>>I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to >>>>>>>>>>>me. I >>>>>>>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had >>>>>>>>>>>to >>>>>>>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the >>>>>>>>>>>4Runner is more responsive. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. >>>>>>>>>>>Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>adding tower braces will help. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car >>>>>>>>>>and >>>>>>>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>>>>-Fred W >>>>> >>>>>>>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on >>>>>>>>>the >>>>>>>>>road and improving cornering performance. >>>>> >>>>>>>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said >>>>>>>>you >>>>>>>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or >>>>>>>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really >>>>>>>>change the feeling of the electric assist. >>>>> >>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>>-Fred W >>>>> >>>>>>>I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was >>>>>>>describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish >>>>>>>(not >>>>>>>unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a >>>>>>>SLK >>>>>>>but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata. >>>>> >>>>>>I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term >>>>>>"understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers >>>>>>that >>>>>>you are getting. >>>>> >>>>>>Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car >>>>>>wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside >>>>>>of >>>>>>the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer >>>>>>is >>>>>>exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car >>>>>>toward the inside of the corner. >>>>> >>>>>> These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and >>>>>>dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do >>>>>>with >>>>>>the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio. >>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>-Fred W >>>>> >>>>>From another review (this happened to me): >>>> >>>>>Out on the fabulous Jerez circuit, the dull steering doesn't really dent >>>>>your progress, but the Z4 M's quite pronounced understeer does. If you >>>>>misjudge your entry speed it's not easy to rein it in and exit the >>>>>corner >>>>>cleanly. Through the slower corners particularly you have to work hard >>>>>to >>>>>keep it neat and tidy.- Hide quoted text - >>>>> >>>>>- Show quoted text - >>>> >>>> >>>>Yes but you say the problem is the wheels don't turn as quickly as you >>>>want them to, not that the front end was losing traction. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>I never said the front end was losing traction. I described understeer >>>("That almost happened to me. I came into a corner a little hot, I >>>turned the wheel and then had to quickly compensate for the understeer.") >>>. Now I think the electric assist steering is not the problem. The >>>problem is the way the car is set up. >>> >>>From another review: >>> >>>"Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always >>>understeer, understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and >>>faster, understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the >>>more understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs >>>rear-wheel-drive and an engine locating behind the front axle to create >>>an understeerer. " >>> >>>Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before. >>>Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive >>>the car hard enough to realize the problem. >> >>Yes. The car understeers. But your complaint was the electric assist. >>Know how I know this to be true? Read the subject line (above) that you >>entered. >> >>-- >>-Fred W > > > You're right. I was wrong to attribute it to electrical assist steering. > > That should make you feel better. > > Unfortunately the understeer is still there regardless of the source. > > OK, sorry to be redundant. So... now we get to the crux of the matter. The car exhibits more understeer than you'd like. How to reduce understeer (or induce oversteer if taken far enough): Increase front tire pressure Decrease Rear tire pressure Shave Front tires (decrease tread depth) Wider Front Tires Narrower Rear Tires Make Front Camber more Negative Make Front Caster more Positive Reduce Front Toe-in Softer front swap bar Stiffer rear sway Bar Soften front springs Stiffen rear springs Softer front shocks Stiffer rear shocks So you see... you aren't exactly stuck with the handling you have right now. Many BMWs come with staggered tires. Get rid of that as a first step. Put the same size tire and wheel on both axles and you may find things are much more "balanced" right there. Of course it won't look like a dragster anymore... C'est la vie. -- -Fred W |
#30
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I don't like electric assist stearing.
In article >,
Floyd Rogers > wrote: > My statement stands that all cars (including BMWs) understeer. Modern ones yes - and rightly so for safety in extremis. But it's not so long ago the semi trailing arm equipped ones like the E28 etc could oversteer pretty easily and bite the unwary. The very first BMW I drove was a 525 auto - the one before the E28 - and lost it at a pretty low speed on a wet roundabout. No harm was done and I caught it before it spun, but it surprised me - my car was a considerably more powerful auto and would have taken the same treatment easily. But then it had a De Dion rear axle. -- *Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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