I don't like electric assist stearing.

"grinder" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "adder1969" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Do you mean that the car actually understeers or that the steering
>> doesn't turn as much as you would expect??
>> if the former then I don't understand what the electric assist has to
>> do with it. On my old 3 new decent tyres and then some eibachs solved
>> any (unreasonable) understeer.
>>
>>
>
> It's the later.
Then as E Brown suggested to you last week, you want a quicker steering
ratio. Even if that was an option, you'd probably find that the car then
would tend to wander more at freeway speeds, as the steering ratio is a
compromise between low speed maneuverability and high speed stability.

BTW, changing your tires will likely have little effect since the OEM RE050
tires are pretty good handling tires. I switched from the Bridgestones to
Goodyear F1 GS-D3s mainly because of lower cost and an improved ride - but
IMHO, the Bridgestones handled as well as the Goodyears.

Of course, you could always have the steering & suspension checked out by a
dealer in case something is out of spec - but the fact that the steering
assist is electric doesn't seem to be your problem.

Tom K.

"Fred W" > wrote in message
. ..
> grinder wrote:
>> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>grinder wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends. My
>>>>everyday vehicle is a 4Runner.
>>>>
>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to the
>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me and I
>>>>think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to me. I
>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had to
>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the 4Runner
>>>>is more responsive.
>>>>
>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. Maybe
>>>>adding tower braces will help.
>>>
>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car and
>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one.
>>>
>>>--
>>>-Fred W
>>
>>
>> Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on the
>> road and improving cornering performance.
>
> Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said you
> did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or eliminating
> chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really change the
> feeling of the electric assist.
>
> --
> -Fred W

I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was describing
was understeer. Another description might be sluggish (not unresponsive
but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a SLK but is not as
good as a Boxster or Miata.

"Tom K." > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "grinder" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>>
>> "adder1969" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>>
>>> Do you mean that the car actually understeers or that the steering
>>> doesn't turn as much as you would expect??
>>> if the former then I don't understand what the electric assist has to
>>> do with it. On my old 3 new decent tyres and then some eibachs solved
>>> any (unreasonable) understeer.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It's the later.
> Then as E Brown suggested to you last week, you want a quicker steering
> ratio. Even if that was an option, you'd probably find that the car then
> would tend to wander more at freeway speeds, as the steering ratio is a
> compromise between low speed maneuverability and high speed stability.
>
> BTW, changing your tires will likely have little effect since the OEM
> RE050 tires are pretty good handling tires. I switched from the
> Bridgestones to Goodyear F1 GS-D3s mainly because of lower cost and an
> improved ride - but IMHO, the Bridgestones handled as well as the
> Goodyears.
>
> Of course, you could always have the steering & suspension checked out by
> a dealer in case something is out of spec - but the fact that the steering
> assist is electric doesn't seem to be your problem.
>
> Tom K.
>

When I went to run flats to non-run flats on the Mini S it was like going
from night to day. Much much much much better handling and of course the
noise difference was huge (something not mentioned in this thread).

BWT, I increased the pressure in the front tires by 2psi. What would you
recommend?

grinder wrote:
> "Fred W" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>grinder wrote:
>>
>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message
om...
>>>
>>>
>>>>grinder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends. My
>>>>>everyday vehicle is a 4Runner.
>>>>>
>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to the
>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me and I
>>>>>think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to me. I
>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had to
>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the 4Runner
>>>>>is more responsive.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. Maybe
>>>>>adding tower braces will help.
>>>>
>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car and
>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>-Fred W
>>>
>>>
>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on the
>>>road and improving cornering performance.
>>
>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said you
>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or eliminating
>>chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really change the
>>feeling of the electric assist.
>>
>>--
>>-Fred W
>
>
> I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was describing
> was understeer. Another description might be sluggish (not unresponsive
> but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a SLK but is not as
> good as a Boxster or Miata.
>
>

I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term
"understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers
that you are getting.

Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car
wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside
of the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner.
Oversteer is exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and
points the car toward the inside of the corner.

These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and
dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do with
the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio.

--
-Fred W

"Fred W" > wrote in message
. ..
> grinder wrote:
>> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>grinder wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message
>>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcast. com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>grinder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends.
>>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to the
>>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me and
>>>>>>I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to me. I
>>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had to
>>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the
>>>>>>4Runner is more responsive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. Maybe
>>>>>>adding tower braces will help.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car and
>>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>-Fred W
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on the
>>>>road and improving cornering performance.
>>>
>>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said you
>>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or
>>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really
>>>change the feeling of the electric assist.
>>>
>>>--
>>>-Fred W
>>
>>
>> I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was
>> describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish (not
>> unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a SLK
>> but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata.
>
> I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term
> "understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers that
> you are getting.
>
> Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car
> wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside of
> the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer is
> exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car
> toward the inside of the corner.
>
> These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and
> dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do with
> the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio.
>
> --
> -Fred W

From a review:

"In fact, if there's a fault to be found with the Z4's handling, it's the
opposite: The rear sticks longer than necessary (read "understeer")."

"Fred W" > wrote in message
. ..
> grinder wrote:
>> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>grinder wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message
>>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcast. com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>grinder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends.
>>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to the
>>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me and
>>>>>>I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to me. I
>>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had to
>>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the
>>>>>>4Runner is more responsive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. Maybe
>>>>>>adding tower braces will help.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car and
>>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>-Fred W
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on the
>>>>road and improving cornering performance.
>>>
>>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said you
>>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or
>>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really
>>>change the feeling of the electric assist.
>>>
>>>--
>>>-Fred W
>>
>>
>> I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was
>> describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish (not
>> unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a SLK
>> but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata.
>
> I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term
> "understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers that
> you are getting.
>
> Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car
> wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside of
> the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer is
> exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car
> toward the inside of the corner.
>
> These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and
> dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do with
> the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio.
>
> --
> -Fred W

From another review (this happened to me):

Out on the fabulous Jerez circuit, the dull steering doesn't really dent
your progress, but the Z4 M's quite pronounced understeer does. If you
misjudge your entry speed it's not easy to rein it in and exit the corner
cleanly. Through the slower corners particularly you have to work hard to
keep it neat and tidy.

On Mar 15, 2:24 pm, "grinder" > wrote:
> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>
> . ..
>
>
>
>
>
> > grinder wrote:
> >> "Fred W" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> >>>grinder wrote:
>
> >>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message
> >>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcast. com...
>
> >>>>>grinder wrote:
>
> >>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends.
> >>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner.
>
> >>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to the
> >>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me and
> >>>>>>I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to me. I
> >>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had to
> >>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the
> >>>>>>4Runner is more responsive.
>
> >>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked. Maybe
> >>>>>>adding tower braces will help.
>
> >>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car and
> >>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one.
>
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>-Fred W
>
> >>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on the
> >>>>road and improving cornering performance.
>
> >>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said you
> >>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or
> >>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really
> >>>change the feeling of the electric assist.
>
> >>>--
> >>>-Fred W
>
> >> I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was
> >> describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish (not
> >> unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a SLK
> >> but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata.
>
> > I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term
> > "understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers that
> > you are getting.
>
> > Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car
> > wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside of
> > the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer is
> > exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car
> > toward the inside of the corner.
>
> > These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and
> > dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do with
> > the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio.
>
> > --
> > -Fred W
>
> From another review (this happened to me):
>
> Out on the fabulous Jerez circuit, the dull steering doesn't really dent
> your progress, but the Z4 M's quite pronounced understeer does. If you
> misjudge your entry speed it's not easy to rein it in and exit the corner
> cleanly. Through the slower corners particularly you have to work hard to
> keep it neat and tidy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Yes but you say the problem is the wheels don't turn as quickly as you
want them to, not that the front end was losing traction.

"adder1969" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 15, 2:24 pm, "grinder" > wrote:
>> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>>
>> . ..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > grinder wrote:
>> >> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>
>> >>>grinder wrote:
>>
>> >>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message
>> >>>>news:rcudnVO4druAGmnYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcast. com...
>>
>> >>>>>grinder wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>I have had my Z4 since November and normally drive it on weekends.
>> >>>>>>My everyday vehicle is a 4Runner.
>>
>> >>>>>>I can see where if one drove the Z every day one could get used to
>> >>>>>>the
>> >>>>>>understeer of the electrical assist. But it feels sluggish to me
>> >>>>>>and
>> >>>>>>I think could contribute to accidents. That almost happened to me.
>> >>>>>>I
>> >>>>>>came into a corner a little hot, I turned the wheel and then had to
>> >>>>>>quickly compensate for the understeer. I hate to say it but the
>> >>>>>>4Runner is more responsive.
>>
>> >>>>>>I don't know why they had to mess with something that worked.
>> >>>>>>Maybe
>> >>>>>>adding tower braces will help.
>>
>> >>>>>I don't see how adding braces would change anything. Sell the car
>> >>>>>and
>> >>>>>buy one you like to drive. Oh, and test drive the next one.
>>
>> >>>>>--
>> >>>>>-Fred W
>>
>> >>>>Braces will reduce flex on hard corners thereby keeping more tire on
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>road and improving cornering performance.
>>
>> >>>Undoubtedly true. But that was not your initial complaint. You said
>> >>>you
>> >>>did not care for the feel of the electric assist. Reducing or
>> >>>eliminating chassis flex will help reduce understeer, but not really
>> >>>change the feeling of the electric assist.
>>
>> >>>--
>> >>>-Fred W
>>
>> >> I guess I should have been more explicity. The "feeling" I was
>> >> describing was understeer. Another description might be sluggish
>> >> (not
>> >> unresponsive but not quick). I realize it is better than found on a
>> >> SLK
>> >> but is not as good as a Boxster or Miata.
>>
>> > I have a feeling that you are misunderstanding and misusing the term
>> > "understeer", which may be leading to a lot of the confusing answers
>> > that
>> > you are getting.
>>
>> > Understeer is the condition that occurs during cornering where the car
>> > wants to "push out" the front end, pointing the car toward the outside
>> > of
>> > the corner. In essence you are "under steering" the corner. Oversteer
>> > is
>> > exactly the opposite, where the rear end kicks out and points the car
>> > toward the inside of the corner.
>>
>> > These have mostly to do with chassis balance, weight distribution and
>> > dynamic weight transfer during cornering. It has very little to do
>> > with
>> > the amount of steering "power assist" or the steering ratio.
>>
>> > --
>> > -Fred W
>>
>> From another review (this happened to me):
>>
>> Out on the fabulous Jerez circuit, the dull steering doesn't really dent
>> your progress, but the Z4 M's quite pronounced understeer does. If you
>> misjudge your entry speed it's not easy to rein it in and exit the corner
>> cleanly. Through the slower corners particularly you have to work hard to
>> keep it neat and tidy.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
> Yes but you say the problem is the wheels don't turn as quickly as you
> want them to, not that the front end was losing traction.
>
>

I never said the front end was losing traction. I described understeer
("That almost happened to me. I came into a corner a little hot, I turned
the wheel and then had to quickly compensate for the understeer.") . Now I
think the electric assist steering is not the problem. The problem is the
way the car is set up.

From another review:

"Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always understeer,
understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and faster,
understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the more
understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs rear-wheel-drive and an
engine locating behind the front axle to create an understeerer. "

Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before.
Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive the
car hard enough to realize the problem.

"grinder" > wrote
> "adder1969" > wrote
>> Yes but you say the problem is the wheels don't turn as quickly as you
>> want them to, not that the front end was losing traction.
>
> I never said the front end was losing traction. I described understeer
> ("That almost happened to me. I came into a corner a little hot, I turned
> the wheel and then had to quickly compensate for the understeer.") . Now
> I think the electric assist steering is not the problem. The problem is
> the way the car is set up.
>
> From another review:
>
> "Basically, it is tuned to be an inherent understeerer. Always understeer,
> understeer and understeer. Whenever you push it harder and faster,
> understeer will get into the picture. The harder it corners, the more
> understeer it shows. Now we don't know why BMW needs rear-wheel-drive and
> an engine locating behind the front axle to create an understeerer. "
>
> Frankly I am surprised this has not been discussed in the forum before.
> Maybe people don't recognize it for what it is or maybe they don't drive
> the car hard enough to realize the problem.

It's been very well discussed that BMW sets up their cars (indeed, *EVERY*
car manufacturer does this) for understeer as the primary response, because
it's *generally* safer for most drivers. Even cars whose basic design (rear
or mid-engined) would be expected to exhibit oversteer have tuned their
cars to exhibit understeer.

You just haven't looked for articles discussing this.

FloydR

> I never said the front end was losing traction. I described understeer
> ("That almost happened to me. I came into a corner a little hot, I turned
> the wheel and then had to quickly compensate for the understeer.") . Now I
> think the electric assist steering is not the problem. The problem is the
> way the car is set up.
>
>

Well the understeer is the front end losing (some) traction. The
process of hard cornering doesn't change the steering geometry so much
that it doesn't steer enough.

Almost all cars will have that characteristic if you barrel into a
corner, it's simply physics. You can reduce the effect by tweaking
the suspension, springs, dampers, anti-roll/sway bars, different tyres
etc etc.