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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 19th 15, 06:20 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Steve W.[_6_]
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Posts: 1,161
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

.. wrote:
> On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>> Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
>> inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
>> that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
>> dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
>> flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
>> VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.
>>
>> That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
>> to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
>> through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
>> this if a federal law that was broken.
>>
>> What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
>> modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
>> could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
>> they should pay a fine as well".

>
> When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?


Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars,
judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I
doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars
for cash" BS.

--
Steve W.
Ads
  #22  
Old September 19th 15, 06:25 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
[email protected]
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Posts: 931
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> I assume the car's computer
>> knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.

>
>Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
>doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.
>
>http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf
>
>Most use tailpipe testing.
>
>Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
>on a dynomometer.
>
>Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
>easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
>being tested for emissions.
>
>Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
>knows it is being tested.

Don't know how other jurisdictions do it, but in Ontario the old
"drive clean" test was a "rolling road" sniffer test at two speeds,
with the car connected to the computer via the diagnostic port, but
not accessing discrete codes.

The new system does away with both the "rolling road" and the sniffer,
meaning it can only "guess" or "deduce" if the NOX is within range -
it cannot tell if the reduction catalyst is working because only the
oxidizing catalyst is monitored by the secondary O2 sensor.

It is POSSIBLE that VW implements the "over-ride" whenever a certain
sequence of events is performed that are substantially the same as the
initialization procedure for running the test (There is a perscribed
sequence of events that MUST be performed to get a valid test result)
(like 20 many seconds at a particular RPM, followed by another given
period of time at another RPM) which, if performed during the normal
process of driving would also put the system in "bypass" for the
anticipated duration of the test.
  #23  
Old September 19th 15, 06:32 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
[email protected]
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 08:25:23 -0400, Stormin Mormon
> wrote:

>On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
>>> would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
>>> caught or ratted out.

>>
>> According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.
>>
>> If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
>> the recall, since it's not a safety issue.
>>
>> They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
>> also do worse on emissions testing results).
>>
>> It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
>> think, because of those two results.
>>
>> Do you agree?
>> Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?
>>

>
>I'm likely mistaken, but my gut sense is that lower emissions
>means lower performance, and lower mileage. My guess is that
>the "fix" will be a downgrade of some kind.


Then how do you explain the FACT that todays engines -
1)produce higher spedific output than engines in the past
2) Consume fewer gallons of gas per unit distance travelled
AND
3) produce lower exhaut emissions

-than the engines of only a few years back - muchless the
"uncontrolled" engines of the 50s and 60s, and the early emission
engines of the 70s and 80s?

VW will just have to step up to the plate and spend in retrofits what
they should have spent in initial design and production - plus.

>-
>.
>Christopher A. Young
>learn more about Jesus
>. www.lds.org
>.
>.


  #24  
Old September 19th 15, 06:34 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
.[_2_]
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Posts: 113
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/19/2015 12:20 PM, Steve W. wrote:
> . wrote:
>> On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>>> Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
>>> inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
>>> that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
>>> dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
>>> flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
>>> VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.
>>>
>>> That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
>>> to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
>>> through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
>>> this if a federal law that was broken.
>>>
>>> What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
>>> modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
>>> could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
>>> they should pay a fine as well".

>>
>> When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

>
> Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
> the umbrella of the EPA laws.


I've still yet to hear or read of a single case myself.

> VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
> intent of violating the EPA laws.


Yes, I know. But the EPA will be the only route by which this
could be addressed given that many states don't even do testing.
  #25  
Old September 19th 15, 06:46 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
[email protected]
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Posts: 931
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:36:27 -0500, "." > wrote:

>On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike > wrote:
>>
>>>> If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
>>>> the recall, since it's not a safety issue.
>>>>
>>>> They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
>>>> also do worse on emissions testing results).
>>>>
>>>> It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
>>>> think, because of those two results.

>>
>>>> Do you agree?
>>>> Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
>>>> cars?
>>>>
>>> Will you have any choice?
>>> If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
>>> emissions, they will FAIL.
>>> If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
>>> Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

>>
>> Some cut.
>>
>> Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
>> for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
>> the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
>> I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
>> states with no testing.

>
>Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
>and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
>less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
>cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
>lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
>addressed at time of manufacture.

I will respectfully dissagree - with qualifications.

In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the
initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass
a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap
off the road. Annual safety checks in Ontario only affect commercial
vehicles - and again there is a pretty high failure rate - and since
selective enforcement has been in place the number of wheels coming
off commercial vehicles and killing drivers of other vehicles has
dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. Enforcement is the key.

As for emission testing - in the early years it had merit. There were
a LOT of "gross poluters" on our roads - and it was very simple to
defeat emission controls and change the calibration of an rngine (by
adjusting timing, rejetting carbs etc) so that what left the
manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same.

With today's computer controlled vehicles, unleaded gas, etc, the VAST
majority of vehicles pass, even when 20 years old - if reasonably
maintained, and the OBD2 only testing is a total farce and nothing but
a money-grab -

Safety shecks for vehicle transfer and annually for commercial
vehicles is both a consumer protection AND safety issue - and worth
continuing. (along with "selective enforcement" on the roads - see a
"questionable" vehicle - pull it over and inspect it for basic safety
standards, and possible send for "secondary inspecion" by a registered
safety inspection station. Bring it up to standard or take it off the
road.
  #26  
Old September 19th 15, 06:47 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
[email protected]
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Posts: 931
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:45:01 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 9/19/2015 9:17 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>
>>> Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
>>> cars?

>>
>> Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if
>> the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's
>> recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and
>> the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of
>> 'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts.
>>

>
>Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil
>change? Dirty air filter?

Not even for driving in the winter with bald summer tires. The
insurance company HAS to pay up - but they can make it EXTREMELY
difficult to afford insurance in the future - - - - - - - - - - -
  #27  
Old September 19th 15, 06:50 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
[email protected]
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Posts: 931
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:12:41 -0400, "Steve W." >
wrote:

>Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
>>
>>> If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
>>> the recall, since it's not a safety issue.
>>>
>>> They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
>>> also do worse on emissions testing results).
>>>
>>> It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
>>> think, because of those two results.
>>>
>>> Do you agree?
>>> Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?
>>>

>>
>> You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes.
>> The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer
>> pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing
>> will be able to tell.

>
>Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
>inspection.

Not any more. The ECU is linked to the VIN, and the OBD2 tester reads
the VIN directly from the ECU

> IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
>that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
>dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
>flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
>VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.
>
>That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
>to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
>through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
>this if a federal law that was broken.
>
>What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
>modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
>could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
>they should pay a fine as well".


  #28  
Old September 19th 15, 06:53 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Steve Stone[_5_]
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Posts: 6
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

> If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
> the recall, since it's not a safety issue.


I hope they don't follow the Microsoft Windows 10 model, where upgrades
and patches will be installed automatically no matter what you do.

  #29  
Old September 19th 15, 06:57 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
.[_2_]
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Posts: 113
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/19/2015 12:46 PM, wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:36:27 -0500, "." > wrote:
>
>> Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
>> and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
>> less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
>> cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
>> lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
>> addressed at time of manufacture.

> I will respectfully dissagree - with qualifications.
>
> In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the
> initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass
> a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap
> off the road.


If only there were any documentation to support that claim.

Annual safety checks in Ontario only affect commercial
> vehicles - and again there is a pretty high failure rate - and since
> selective enforcement has been in place the number of wheels coming
> off commercial vehicles and killing drivers of other vehicles has
> dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. Enforcement is the key.


My comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars.

> As for emission testing - in the early years it had merit. There were
> a LOT of "gross poluters" on our roads - and it was very simple to
> defeat emission controls and change the calibration of an rngine (by
> adjusting timing, rejetting carbs etc)


It still is.

so that what left the
> manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same.


And those that in any manner overrode emission controls were
an insignificant percentage of the motoring public.

> With today's computer controlled vehicles, unleaded gas, etc, the VAST
> majority of vehicles pass, even when 20 years old - if reasonably
> maintained, and the OBD2 only testing is a total farce and nothing but
> a money-grab -
>
> Safety shecks for vehicle transfer and annually for commercial
> vehicles is both a consumer protection AND safety issue - and worth
> continuing. (along with "selective enforcement" on the roads - see a
> "questionable" vehicle - pull it over and inspect it for basic safety
> standards, and possible send for "secondary inspecion" by a registered
> safety inspection station. Bring it up to standard or take it off the
> road.


Again, my comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars.
  #30  
Old September 19th 15, 07:23 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
[email protected]
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Posts: 931
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:34:45 -0500, "." > wrote:

>On 9/19/2015 12:20 PM, Steve W. wrote:
>> . wrote:
>>> On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>>>> Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
>>>> inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
>>>> that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
>>>> dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
>>>> flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
>>>> VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.
>>>>
>>>> That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
>>>> to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
>>>> through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
>>>> this if a federal law that was broken.
>>>>
>>>> What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
>>>> modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
>>>> could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
>>>> they should pay a fine as well".
>>>
>>> When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?

>>
>> Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
>> the umbrella of the EPA laws.

>
>I've still yet to hear or read of a single case myself.


Spot checking of modified vehicles at large "car shows" has been
promised, and reported. Just because your car is registered as a 1927
model "T" ford does not mean it is exempt from emissions testing if it
has a 2009 Chevy LT between the frame rails.
>

Officially it needs to meet the requirements for the 2009 vehicle the
LT was originally supplied for (determined by the engine number).


>> VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
>> intent of violating the EPA laws.

>
>Yes, I know. But the EPA will be the only route by which this
>could be addressed given that many states don't even do testing.


 




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