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Clutch bolts and locktite



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 24th 18, 06:37 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Paul in Houston TX[_2_]
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Posts: 201
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2018 22:29:00 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>
>> Oh my.
>>
>> You _must_ support the engine. Either via a block of wood under the oil
>> pan, a trans lift under the pan, or a bar with chain across the shock towers
>> or hood opening. If you dont, the engine will tilt. Bad things can happen
>> like something goes through the radiator or the exhaust manifold breaks,
>> wires get ripped off, etc.
>> The cross member - remove it. It will make life a lot easier.
>> You did not say what specific engine, vehicle, trans, etc, but without
>> removing it it is doubtful that that there will be enough room to back off
>> the trans and then tilt forward to drop it with out breaking off the tail shaft.
>> So why are you removing the trans? To R&R the clutch?
>> If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.
>> You will need a clutch plate centering tool.
>> Thread lock- I tend to use blue thread lock on small bolts and nuts
>> that get torqued to inch pounds but not on large bolts that get
>> torqued to 100+ foot pounds. A suggestion: replace any lock washers.

>
> To answer your question, I am now supporting the engine but I don't think
> it needed to be supported since nobody else does that that I could figure
> out. With the jack on the engine and the transmission out, I can move the
> engine about 1/2 inch or even less, so that might be helpful when lining it
> up for the reassembly though.
>
> The cross member and the sway bar were removed, and I'm glad it did that
> because you need as much room as possible the first time you do it.
>
> The Aisin clutch kit from Rockauto came with five pieces:
> a. Clutch plate
> b. Diaphragm
> c. Pilot bearing
> d. Throwout bearing
> e. Alignment tool
>
> I am replacing the clutch where it was worn to the rivets.
>
> I'm kind of stuck now on whether to remove the flywheel and get a new one
> or have it machined (and replace the oil seal behind it) or just keep it
> where it is (the bolts are on really tightly and I can't tell if it needs
> to be machined or not).
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg>


Nice clutch kit.
From the photo it looks like it got pretty hot.
I would have it machined or replaced.
Rent an electric impact wrench and socket if you need to.

Ads
  #22  
Old July 24th 18, 06:14 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 23 Jul 2018 22:37:05 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> Nice clutch kit.


I needed 30 inches of 1/2" extension for the two top 17mm bolt
but those extensions you saw didn't come with the Aisin clutch kit.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg>

The Rockauto Aisin clutch kit only comes with these 5 parts.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2998436clutch02.jpg>

> From the photo it looks like it got pretty hot.


It was slipping for about 30 to 50 miles and stinking up a bit also.

> I would have it machined or replaced.


Machining is $60, replacement is in stock at one dealer at $716 (PN
13405-75040) plus $66.23 in sales tax, which makes that dealer $782.23.
When I gasped, the counter guy said he could take 20% off, which I didn't
know that dealers did discounts.

Calling another dealer, they didn't have it in stock but it was $588 plus
$54.39 in sales tax, which makes it 642.39.

At the local parts stores, a LUK flywheel is $95, O'Reillys PowerTorque
flywheel is $81.74, and the Autozone BrutePower flywheel is $82.

It always amazes me that the dealer parts guys don't know what brand
anything is, so I can't tell you who makes the Toyota flywheel but my
choice is one of the others, based on sheer price alone.

> Rent an electric impact wrench and socket if you need to.


I am about to try now, where I have a 1/2 inch motorocycle hand impact
driver, but I don't have 1/2 inch 12-point sockets, so I will try with a
1/2-inch to 3/8-inch adaptor but that seems like a kludge.

If that doesn't work, when I pick up the flywheel, I'll buy some 1/2 inch
12-point impact sockets (if they even exist).

I do have a 220VAC 20-gallon 120 psi compressor and an air impact gun but
the gun sucks and is only good for spinning off already loose bolts. I
don't know why it sucks. It never worked. I bought it 20 years ago, and it
just takes up space in my toolbox. I don't know how to pick a good one at a
good price where price is important because I almost never use the air
impact gun.

Maybe I'll buy an air impact gun, but since I need it today, I can only
shop Home Depot where I don't even know what they sell there or if it's any
good. Clearly the air impact gun I have sucks, so you can get sucky ones
for sure, and who wants that.
  #23  
Old July 24th 18, 08:08 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Tekkie®
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Posts: 84
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder posted for all of us...


>
> On 23 Jul 2018 22:37:05 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>
> > Nice clutch kit.

>
> I needed 30 inches of 1/2" extension for the two top 17mm bolt
> but those extensions you saw didn't come with the Aisin clutch kit.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg>
>
> The Rockauto Aisin clutch kit only comes with these 5 parts.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2998436clutch02.jpg>
>
> > From the photo it looks like it got pretty hot.

>
> It was slipping for about 30 to 50 miles and stinking up a bit also.
>
> > I would have it machined or replaced.

>
> Machining is $60, replacement is in stock at one dealer at $716 (PN
> 13405-75040) plus $66.23 in sales tax, which makes that dealer $782.23.
> When I gasped, the counter guy said he could take 20% off, which I didn't
> know that dealers did discounts.
>
> Calling another dealer, they didn't have it in stock but it was $588 plus
> $54.39 in sales tax, which makes it 642.39.
>
> At the local parts stores, a LUK flywheel is $95, O'Reillys PowerTorque
> flywheel is $81.74, and the Autozone BrutePower flywheel is $82.
>
> It always amazes me that the dealer parts guys don't know what brand
> anything is, so I can't tell you who makes the Toyota flywheel but my
> choice is one of the others, based on sheer price alone.
>
> > Rent an electric impact wrench and socket if you need to.

>
> I am about to try now, where I have a 1/2 inch motorocycle hand impact
> driver, but I don't have 1/2 inch 12-point sockets, so I will try with a
> 1/2-inch to 3/8-inch adaptor but that seems like a kludge.
>
> If that doesn't work, when I pick up the flywheel, I'll buy some 1/2 inch
> 12-point impact sockets (if they even exist).
>
> I do have a 220VAC 20-gallon 120 psi compressor and an air impact gun but
> the gun sucks and is only good for spinning off already loose bolts. I
> don't know why it sucks. It never worked. I bought it 20 years ago, and it
> just takes up space in my toolbox. I don't know how to pick a good one at a
> good price where price is important because I almost never use the air
> impact gun.
>
> Maybe I'll buy an air impact gun, but since I need it today, I can only
> shop Home Depot where I don't even know what they sell there or if it's any
> good. Clearly the air impact gun I have sucks, so you can get sucky ones
> for sure, and who wants that.


You want to buy 6 point impact sockets...

IF you hold the flywheel you MAY be able to get it of with a cheater.

Electric impacts have improved. Your present air impact may be weak because
your setup cannot deliver enough air at sufficient pressure.

--
Tekkie
  #24  
Old July 24th 18, 10:14 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 23 Jul 2018 18:59:38 GMT, Terry Coombs wrote:

> * Pilot bushings are most easily removed by filling them with grease ,
> then using a round bar that fits snugly to apply hydraulic pressure -
> put one end of that round bar in the bushing and smack the other end
> with a hammer . A big one works better ... the bushing will pop right out .


Thanks for that helpful advice Terry.

Since I've never done this, I need advice on even the simplest things if
I've never encountered them before.

For bearings, I have plenty of harmonic balancer pullers and gear pullers
but all of them latch to the OUTSIDE of a gear, hence they won't work on
this bearing because there's nothing to hold on to on the outside.

I didn't try the packed grease trick yet, but since I have to pick up the
new flywheel and rear engine seal anyway, I may as well pick up a bearing
puller at Home Depot or the auto parts store to get this pilot bearing out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4808619transmission01.jpg>

The main question I have is for Clare, which is how does that rear main
seal come out, and would he use the paper gasket that supposedly comes with
it or Toyota FIPG instead (or both)?
  #25  
Old July 24th 18, 10:16 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 12:08:15 GMT, Tekkie® wrote:

> You want to buy 6 point impact sockets...


The problem with that is that the flywheel bolts are 12 point.

> IF you hold the flywheel you MAY be able to get it of with a cheater.


The flywheel is off. I used a lock stop and a normal 1/2 inch breaker bar.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1744336transmission02.jpg>

> Electric impacts have improved. Your present air impact may be weak because
> your setup cannot deliver enough air at sufficient pressure.


I first tried the hand impact tool, and it failed.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1244980flywheel04.jpg>

Then I tried the air-impact gun, and it failed even worse.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4748611flywheel02.jpg>

The air pressure is 120psi and the hose is 50 feet of 1/2 inch line, and
the setting was set to 4 (smallest hole and to 1 biggest hole - as I'm not
sure which is high pressure and which is low pressure) and it didn't do a
thing (it never does, which is why I never use it).

It's a Universal Tool UT 2210:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5614055flywheel03.jpg>

Later, not today, I'll post a thread asking for a specific gun that I can
buy on the net that actually works that isn't too expensive (because I
almost never use a gun so it has to pay for itself with very few uses).

What worked is the old school method, which only took a little more effort:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1291741flywheel01.jpg>

What I need to ask Clare is how to get to that rear engine seal.
Do I take out all those bolts around the pilot bearing area?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4808619transmission01.jpg>
  #26  
Old July 24th 18, 10:19 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 12:00:31 GMT, Tekkie® wrote:

> +500 on that! I don't know if machining will take all that out with any life
> left in it. He stated he was down to the rivets so who knows what else...


The rivets were worn only on the side facing the transmission, not the side
facing the flywheel.

Resurfacing the flywheel doesn't seem worth it since it's $60 to resurface
today and you never know how deeply the guy has to go (it was resurfaced
once before about 10 years ago) and you don't know if he does a good job or
not (but he probably does a great job as he's recommended by others).

So I'm buying a new flywheel, and, in fact, the old one is already off.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4808619transmission01.jpg>

I was hoping Clare could recommend a flywheel given the information I
provided (Toyota is as high as $700 while the parts stores are all below
$100).
  #27  
Old July 24th 18, 11:55 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
rbowman
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Posts: 159
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/23/2018 03:59 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> The problem was stupid. Really stupid. I am embarrassed. I removed the
> exhaust bracket bolts (two of them) but I didnt' realize that the bracket,
> even when not connected to the bell housing, was in the way of the bell
> housing moving backward. I'm an idiot. It was all my fault.


That's not as bad as suddenly realizing the transmission is hanging from
the speedometer cable... I doubt they exist anymore so make that some
sort of sensor wiring.
  #28  
Old July 25th 18, 06:47 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 15:55:12 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> That's not as bad as suddenly realizing the transmission is hanging from
> the speedometer cable... I doubt they exist anymore so make that some
> sort of sensor wiring.


There is a speedometer gear which has to be pulled out of the transmission:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3362017speedo04.jpg>

If I had known it was so easy to disable an odometer, the vehicle would
have only 20K miles on it instead of 180K! (jk)

I took great pains to ensure the electrical harness was clear at all times.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2294161clutch05.jpg>

I even removed the upstream lamba probe so as to to prevent damage:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6912446sensorwiring01.jpg>

That upstream oxygen sensor crossed the transmission but I couldn't unclip
it so I just unbolted it. I will replace it as it's the original O2 sensor.

I probably should have bought a downstream o2 sensor also to replace but I
didn't think of it when I was ordering the clutch parts.
  #29  
Old July 25th 18, 06:47 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 19:17:56 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> The OEM bolts have thradlocker on them. Clean the threads - both on
> the bolt and in the holes - use the primer made for the threadlocker,
> and use the medium strength locker (Blue)


Thanks for that advice Clare as I don't generally deal with threadlockers.

I saw your post only after I returned from the parts trip, where I had
already picked up Loctite Red 271 and Permatex Red, and Loctite Blue 242
and Permatex Blue based on what the two different parts stores told me to
get when I asked what they put on flywheels and bellhousing bolts.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4130173fluids01.jpg>

Somewhere I read we have to FIPG the rear main oil seal, but now I think
they mean to put FIPG in place of that paper gasket under the cover that
holds the rear main oil seal.
<https://www.yotashop.com/toyota-2-7l-2-4l-crankshaft-rear-main-seal-set-rm957/>

I had already picked up this high temperature Permatex "gasket maker",
where the purpose one is called Permatex Ultra Synthetic Gasket Maker"
which "resists up to 500d F intermittent" and the Red RTF High Temp Gasket
Maker says "resists up to 650d F intermittent".
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9599745fluids02.jpg>

I didn't know to pick up the primer. I'll have to go back tomorrow to get
that primer (do you think carb cleaner or acetone will work?)

I don't mind doing things the right way - but I just have to know what the
right way is, where I didn't know about the primer until this moment.
  #30  
Old July 25th 18, 06:47 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
> sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
> out, and carefully drive it in.


Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.

This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
<https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg>

It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
<https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003>

Even though it's in the back of the engine:
<https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html>

It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
<https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012>

The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).

They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg>

Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).

I'd really like to replace that seal even though it isn't leaking, because
if it does ever leak, you have to remove the transmission to get to it.

I'll try another dealer tomorrow (there are two within 30 miles of me).

> and DEFINITELY replace that pilot bearing!!!!!!!


Yup. I'm taking all your advice. The kit comes with a pilot bearing:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg>

> You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
> most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
> like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -


The amazing thing is that I went to two parts stores today, both of which
rent out the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer (separately), where the
amazing thing is that the bearing pullers are all TOO BIG to fit inside
this pilot bearing!

The people at both stores tried to fit it inside the new bearing, which,
luckily, I had in my pocket, where they're too fat even though you can
slide the teeth forward one at a time.

It's pretty amazing since this looks like a pretty standard engine and so
it has a pretty standard pilot bearing, right? The pilot bearing is a "6201
RS" which is a very common bearing for lots of shafts.

The tool is two pieces, as you noted.
1. A slide hammer that screws into the back end of the tool
2. The tool itself, which has both sliding and expanding jaws

Yet, both bearing pullers I tested at those two parts stores were too big.

I could rent one, and then grind it down to fit, but that would be abuse.
If I could have found a tool that fit, I would have bought it already.

I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.
 




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