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PERTRONIX IGNITION



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 3rd 07, 04:38 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
Bill[_3_]
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Posts: 47
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION

> ALSO: important note- When using a relay to "boost" Coil voltage,
> a small diode (1 Amp rating) should be inserted in the Blu lead to the
> dash "GEN" light.
>
> Without the diode, feedback will occur *after* the key has been
> switched Off which will keep the engine running...and running...


I had this problem a few months ago - none of my car-freak friends had
ever
heard of a car with headlights on keep running after ign. switch
turned off, and
the headlight switch actually acting as the ignition on/off switch!
I posted here and Speedy Jim gave me the above-mentioned advice. I
installed
the little inline diode and guess what......problem solved
BIG Thanks to Speedy Jim for this and all the other top-notch advice
he gives on this
group.
BIll.

Ads
  #12  
Old April 3rd 07, 07:23 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
anton[_1_]
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Posts: 265
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION

Doesn't that ford relay/regulator draw more amps or same amount of
amps as the solenoid on the starter? Solenoid on the starter will
draw lots of amps at the begining when it shifts but then amp draw
drops where as ford regulator will continue to draw hi as long as you
have the key in the start position.

Anton

On Apr 1, 6:13 pm, " > wrote:
> On Apr 1, 8:40?pm, "Dangermouse" > wrote:
>
> This will really get Jan going....
>
> You can hook a Ford 6V regulator (acts like the 12v hard start relay)
> near your starter and you don't worry about dropping below 6 volts.
>
> Mario
> Vintage Werks resto
>
> > I've been through this recently, here's what I learned...

>
> > Like you, I installed a Pertronix unit in a 6V car. My problem was
> > that while the starter was cranking, the voltage would drop below the
> > 5V required to trigger the unit so no spark was generated. Once the
> > key was let off the starter, the car would often (but not always)
> > start right up - i.e. it would only start after, but not during,
> > cranking. So if you have a voltage drop during cranking, you
> > experience this problem.

>
> > If you connect a jumper wire from the battery cable at the regulator
> > to the positive terminal on the coil (just a length of wire with an
> > alligator clip on each end), you'll probably find it starts up
> > immediately (but obviously you can't leave it like this or your coil
> > would receive power all the time and burn up). But it can help with
> > your diagnosis. Try and measure the voltage at the positive terminal
> > on the coil while the engine is cranking over and see what its
> > dropping down to.

>
> > The supplier of my pertronix unit told me that the module needs 5V to
> > 'trigger' the spark, so on a 6V system you can't afford to lose ANY
> > voltage at all, even with a 6V system in absolutely tiptop shape its a
> > pretty close thing. Less than 5V and you just get nothing - which is
> > why it doesn't fire up. With breaker points, even with a voltage drop,
> > you still get some class of spark and its enough to get started with.

>
> > I found a replacement battery helped a lot (but my old battery was
> > VERY tired), but has not cured the problem completely. If the car has
> > been sitting for a couple of days or is cold, I still have to use the
> > jumper wire trick. If the car is warm and has been out and about
> > during the day, it starts up fine with just the ignition switch.

>
> > I also found that running an additional earth cable from the lower
> > starter motor mounting bolt to the battery earth post helped a bit
> > too. Make sure your gearbox to chassis earth strap is in good shape
> > and that the connections are clean. In fact go over all your old
> > wiring and ensure the connections and grounds are clean and bright -
> > this seems to be mandatory for a functional 6V system anyway.

>
> > In my case, the ignition switch wasn't the problem but my reading (and
> > Speedy Jim's suggestion above) indicated that the switch is often a
> > cause of voltage drop or resistance in the starting circuit. They just
> > get old.

>
> > I have found that the jumper wire from the regulator to the coil
> > starts the car immediately every time and I am now thinking about
> > trying to hardwire it in permanently with a 'momentary-on' switch so
> > that I can deliver the extra squirt of volts required by the pertronix
> > just during cranking to start the car and then release it without
> > having to dive back into the engine bay whenever I want to start the
> > car. Its just not a good look ;-)

>
> > Even with the difficulties in running the electronic ignition on a 6V
> > system, I'm delighted with its performance and wouldn't want to go
> > back to points. As you say, once the engine is running it feels strong
> > and smooth and the timing is rock steady.

>
> > Good luck!



  #13  
Old April 3rd 07, 07:41 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
Speedy Jim
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Posts: 571
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION

anton wrote:

> Doesn't that ford relay/regulator draw more amps or same amount of
> amps as the solenoid on the starter? Solenoid on the starter will
> draw lots of amps at the begining when it shifts but then amp draw
> drops where as ford regulator will continue to draw hi as long as you
> have the key in the start position.
>
> Anton



No, the Ford relay is not a mechanical solenoid like the VW.

The Ford relay only has to close a pair of heavy contacts
to engage the starter motor. The heavy mechanical work is
done at the starter shaft to "throw" the pinion gear into the
flywheel.

Beginning in the 30's, Ford used a unique "Bendix" drive.


This from Wikipedia:
The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically-cut
driveshaft. When the starter motor begins turning, the inertia of the
drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus
engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the
ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the
starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical
shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear.

Jim
  #14  
Old April 3rd 07, 07:58 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
anton[_1_]
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Posts: 265
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION

On Apr 3, 11:41 am, Speedy Jim > wrote:
> anton wrote:
> > Doesn't that ford relay/regulator draw more amps or same amount of
> > amps as the solenoid on the starter? Solenoid on the starter will
> > draw lots of amps at the begining when it shifts but then amp draw
> > drops where as ford regulator will continue to draw hi as long as you
> > have the key in the start position.

>
> > Anton

>
> No, the Ford relay is not a mechanical solenoid like the VW.
>
> The Ford relay only has to close a pair of heavy contacts
> to engage the starter motor. The heavy mechanical work is
> done at the starter shaft to "throw" the pinion gear into the
> flywheel.
>
> Beginning in the 30's, Ford used a unique "Bendix" drive.
>
> This from Wikipedia:
> The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically-cut
> driveshaft. When the starter motor begins turning, the inertia of the
> drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus
> engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the
> ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the
> starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical
> shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear.
>
> Jim


Hi Jim,

I was basing off Bob Hover's toolz part 11... Not sure if there were
two kinds of ford relays...

Anton

  #15  
Old April 7th 07, 04:24 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
Jan
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Posts: 324
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION

Speedy Jim wrote:
> anton wrote:
>
>> Doesn't that ford relay/regulator draw more amps or same amount of
>> amps as the solenoid on the starter? Solenoid on the starter will
>> draw lots of amps at the begining when it shifts but then amp draw
>> drops where as ford regulator will continue to draw hi as long as you
>> have the key in the start position.
>>
>> Anton

>
>
>
> No, the Ford relay is not a mechanical solenoid like the VW.



Um, my 66 Ford starter relay is nothing but a mechanical solenoid with
electrical contacts at one end of the moving plunger... plunger thingy
moves against a spring when the electromagnetic field around it is
activated, making the contacts short against stationary posts.
Wait a minute.. that's how relays are ;D

The VW starter solenoid is nothing but a big relay.
The Ford starter relay is nothing but a somewhat smaller solenoid.

Jan
  #16  
Old April 7th 07, 04:51 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
Joey Tribiani
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Posts: 1,628
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION


"Jan" > wrote in message
...
> Um, my 66 Ford starter relay is nothing but a mechanical solenoid with
> electrical contacts at one end of the moving plunger... plunger thingy
> moves against a spring when the electromagnetic field around it is
> activated, making the contacts short against stationary posts.
> Wait a minute.. that's how relays are ;D
>
> The VW starter solenoid is nothing but a big relay.
> The Ford starter relay is nothing but a somewhat smaller solenoid.
>
> Jan


the difference is the ford relay makes an electrical contact, the vw starter
solenoid is responsible for mechanically moving the starter pinion into
position...


  #17  
Old April 7th 07, 04:52 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
Jan
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Posts: 324
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION

Joey Tribiani wrote:
> "Jan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Um, my 66 Ford starter relay is nothing but a mechanical solenoid with

>
>>electrical contacts at one end of the moving plunger... plunger thingy
>>moves against a spring when the electromagnetic field around it is
>>activated, making the contacts short against stationary posts.
>>Wait a minute.. that's how relays are ;D
>>
>>The VW starter solenoid is nothing but a big relay.
>>The Ford starter relay is nothing but a somewhat smaller solenoid.
>>
>>Jan

>
>
> the difference is the ford relay makes an electrical contact, the vw starter
> solenoid is responsible for mechanically moving the starter pinion into
> position...
>
>



The VW starter solenoid bridges the big electrical terminals at the back
of it just the same as the Ford unit.... it's an electrical relay as
much as it is a mechanical lever.

Jan
  #18  
Old April 7th 07, 02:22 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
Speedy Jim
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Posts: 571
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION

Jan wrote:
> Joey Tribiani wrote:
>
>> "Jan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Um, my 66 Ford starter relay is nothing but a mechanical solenoid with

>>
>>> electrical contacts at one end of the moving plunger... plunger
>>> thingy moves against a spring when the electromagnetic field around
>>> it is activated, making the contacts short against stationary posts.
>>> Wait a minute.. that's how relays are ;D
>>>
>>> The VW starter solenoid is nothing but a big relay.
>>> The Ford starter relay is nothing but a somewhat smaller solenoid.
>>>
>>> Jan

>>
>>
>>
>> the difference is the ford relay makes an electrical contact, the vw
>> starter solenoid is responsible for mechanically moving the starter
>> pinion into position...
>>

>
>
> The VW starter solenoid bridges the big electrical terminals at the back
> of it just the same as the Ford unit.... it's an electrical relay as
> much as it is a mechanical lever.
>
> Jan


Yeah, but what you are missing is the fact that it requires
a HUGE current for the VW solenoid to move the pinion gear out
(~35 Amps initially). I don't have one handy, but perhaps you
would be so kind as to measure the Amps draw on your Ford "relay".
I bet it is under 5 Amps.

The whole point of this oft-repeated discussion is that the VW
Ignition switch (and lengthy wiring path) is poorly equipped
to handle the current required by the starter solenoid. And the
frequent switch replacements needed by owners attests to this.

Jim
  #19  
Old April 7th 07, 05:21 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
Jan
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Posts: 324
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION

Speedy Jim wrote:
> Jan wrote:
>
>> Joey Tribiani wrote:
>>
>>> "Jan" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> > Um, my 66 Ford starter relay is nothing but a mechanical solenoid
>>> with
>>>
>>>> electrical contacts at one end of the moving plunger... plunger
>>>> thingy moves against a spring when the electromagnetic field around
>>>> it is activated, making the contacts short against stationary posts.
>>>> Wait a minute.. that's how relays are ;D
>>>>
>>>> The VW starter solenoid is nothing but a big relay.
>>>> The Ford starter relay is nothing but a somewhat smaller solenoid.
>>>>
>>>> Jan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> the difference is the ford relay makes an electrical contact, the vw
>>> starter solenoid is responsible for mechanically moving the starter
>>> pinion into position...
>>>

>>
>>
>> The VW starter solenoid bridges the big electrical terminals at the
>> back of it just the same as the Ford unit.... it's an electrical relay
>> as much as it is a mechanical lever.
>>
>> Jan

>
>
> Yeah, but what you are missing is the fact that it requires
> a HUGE current for the VW solenoid to move the pinion gear out
> (~35 Amps initially). I don't have one handy, but perhaps you
> would be so kind as to measure the Amps draw on your Ford "relay".
> I bet it is under 5 Amps.
>
> The whole point of this oft-repeated discussion is that the VW
> Ignition switch (and lengthy wiring path) is poorly equipped
> to handle the current required by the starter solenoid. And the
> frequent switch replacements needed by owners attests to this.
>
> Jim



Frequent, as in every 30 years or so?



Yea, I agree the design could be better.

Jan
  #20  
Old April 8th 07, 05:57 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled
Joey Tribiani
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Posts: 1,628
Default PERTRONIX IGNITION


"Jan" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> the difference is the ford relay makes an electrical contact, the vw
>> starter solenoid is responsible for mechanically moving the starter
>> pinion into position...

>
>
> The VW starter solenoid bridges the big electrical terminals at the back
> of it just the same as the Ford unit.... it's an electrical relay as much
> as it is a mechanical lever.
>


the issue was "current draw".... it take much more current for the
vw(mechanical AND electrical) solenoid than it does for a purely electrical
solenoid/relay....


 




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