Can you tell me how Torq Sticks Work?

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:42:51 -0500, Mike Romain >
wrote:

>They work very poorly and are one of the biggest causes of failed brake
>rotors going.

Oops. This isn't good news. I wonder why my local dealership uses
them then. I mean if the mechanics should know better, they
apparently do not ;0

>Some techs are just plain lazy so they use these torque sticks on their
>impact guns instead of finishing putting a wheel on with a proper torque
>wrench like they are supposed to.

3 or 4 % isn't the worst thing you can do to your lug nuts. Do you
think that 99.99% of all vehicle owners have their lugs within 4% of
eachother ? I would be surprised if they were within 10 % of
eachother.

>The torque sticks bend and get springy in the twist when they reach
>their supposed torque level so the impact driver just bounces.

Yes, it has been mentioned to stop application of energy when the nut
stops moving on the lug.

>The problem is even new ones have a 5% or so tolerance and once used,
>that changes for the worst. You can only flex metal so much before it
>gives some. Even 'real' torque wrenches need calibration now and then.

So I've noticed.

>So if they have gone to say 10% tolerance 'for easy numbers' on a wheel
>lug nut that is supposed to be at 100 ft lb, you could have one lug at
>90 and one at 110 and still think it's working ok meanwhile you just
>warped the rotor.

Those must be some crappy rotors if they are going to warp with that
little of a difference between the lug nut torques.

>Even at 5% new specs, that means one can be at 105 ft lb and the rest
>all at 95 ft lbs or any combination which still can/will warp a rotor,
>especially the crappy Chrysler ones....

They must be incredible crap for that small amount of difference to
make that much difference.

>For all intents and purposes, I think they are garbage and I will always
>use a proper torque wrench on tires (and other parts) like they taught
>us back in the 70's when mag wheels came out. Impact wrenches were
>warping them too....

Well let's think about it. I can use a torque stick to take the nuts
up to some lower number, and then finish topping them off with a
calibrated wrench, eliminating 85% of the misery of doing these things
all by hand.

>Mike

Thanks Mike.

Lg

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:22:44 -0500, JR >
wrote:

>I'll agree on that! Had new tires put on my '93 Crown Vic w/alum wheels,
>tech use 'torque' tube, he's been at this tire dealership for ever. I
>questioned the use of this thing, he said no problem.
>Shortly afterwards, noticed shuttering/pulsing when braking, obvious rotor
>problem.
>Got out my notebook and started taking off lug nuts with my 'real' torque
>wrench. They ranged anywhere from 95ft/lbs to something way over
>150ft/lbs.The last one I had to support one end of tire tool on a jack
>stand, then I had to stand on the tire tool to break it loose!! Never again,
>I always demand hand torqueing, if they don't have one, I'll go somewhere
>else.
>JR in NC

They suck that bad, eh?
I wouldn't have even known they existed except a tech at a local
dealership mentioned _everybody_ there uses them. That's a lot of
mechanics. According you and Mike all of them are doing it
incorrectly, or are "lazy."

My plan is to use them to under torque, and then *top off* with a hand
wrench and a calibrated strain gauge.

Lg

Lawrence Glickman" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:22:28 -0800, "Billy Bad Assr©"
> > wrote:
>
> >LOL >> you got ripped off!!
>
> I don't know that -yet-. They claim to be +/- 4% accurate.
>
> >We had one of those things floating around -- worthless POS >> 2
parts, an
> >extension and a socket! I looked at it -- I saw a plastic/steel
socket!
>
> There is no plastic on anything here. Don't know what you had, but
> these are designed to plug directly into impact sockets. Metal to
> metal, no plastic involved.
>
> > Inner
> >part of socket is supposed to break loose at a given torque >>
problem is
> >sockets plastic housing wears out rather quickly
>
> see above
>
> >> IMHO not worth the $$$!! <<
> >Warning - may cause a major headaches!!!
>
> >you are aware that the sticks are for your wheel lug nuts!
>
> Yes.
> I've been searching the Internet for the "theory of operation" of
> these torq sticks, and haven't been able to find anything yet,
> although I have come across a lot of other valuable information
> relating to torque extensions and how to calculate what you should set
> your torque for when using extensions, with mathematical formulas (
> simple algebra ).
>
> I am still baffled at the theory of operation of these things.
> You can't explain it to me because you said you had plastic break-away
> parts in yours. These things involve no plastic whatsoever, and are
> popular with many DEALERSHIPS around here. The techs tell me they use
> them extensively, and have no complaints.
>
> But they didn't have time to take me through the *theory*.
>
> Thanks anyhow.
>
> Lg
>

"Billy dumb ass" is a complete and total moron.

Ignore his posts.

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:42:51 -0500, Mike Romain >
wrote:

>They work very poorly and are one of the biggest causes of failed brake
>rotors going.

I guess the bottom line is, do you think I should take them back for a
refund ???

They've never been used and I still have the box and original
packaging.

Please reply.

Lg

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:52:37 -0600, "*" > wrote:

>Lawrence Glickman" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:22:28 -0800, "Billy Bad Assr©"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >LOL >> you got ripped off!!
>>
>> I don't know that -yet-. They claim to be +/- 4% accurate.
>>
>> >We had one of those things floating around -- worthless POS >> 2
>parts, an
>> >extension and a socket! I looked at it -- I saw a plastic/steel
>socket!
>>
>> There is no plastic on anything here. Don't know what you had, but
>> these are designed to plug directly into impact sockets. Metal to
>> metal, no plastic involved.
>>
>> > Inner
>> >part of socket is supposed to break loose at a given torque >>
>problem is
>> >sockets plastic housing wears out rather quickly
>>
>> see above
>>
>> >> IMHO not worth the $$$!! <<
>> >Warning - may cause a major headaches!!!
>>
>> >you are aware that the sticks are for your wheel lug nuts!
>>
>> Yes.
>> I've been searching the Internet for the "theory of operation" of
>> these torq sticks, and haven't been able to find anything yet,
>> although I have come across a lot of other valuable information
>> relating to torque extensions and how to calculate what you should set
>> your torque for when using extensions, with mathematical formulas (
>> simple algebra ).
>>
>> I am still baffled at the theory of operation of these things.
>> You can't explain it to me because you said you had plastic break-away
>> parts in yours. These things involve no plastic whatsoever, and are
>> popular with many DEALERSHIPS around here. The techs tell me they use
>> them extensively, and have no complaints.
>>
>> But they didn't have time to take me through the *theory*.
>>
>> Thanks anyhow.
>>
>> Lg
>>
>
>"Billy dumb ass" is a complete and total moron.
>
>Ignore his posts.
>

Sure noone, but what about Mike Romain and JS?

I want to know if I should return them for a full refund. I've have
them New in the Box here with the receipt, I just bought them
yesterday afternoon.

I could use that money to buy a REAL torque wrench ( $105.99 tax inc
).

Please advise.

Lg

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:52:37 -0600, "*" > wrote:

>Lawrence Glickman" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:22:28 -0800, "Billy Bad Assr©"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >LOL >> you got ripped off!!
>>
>> I don't know that -yet-. They claim to be +/- 4% accurate.
>>
>> >We had one of those things floating around -- worthless POS >> 2
>parts, an
>> >extension and a socket! I looked at it -- I saw a plastic/steel
>socket!
>>
>> There is no plastic on anything here. Don't know what you had, but
>> these are designed to plug directly into impact sockets. Metal to
>> metal, no plastic involved.
>>
>> > Inner
>> >part of socket is supposed to break loose at a given torque >>
>problem is
>> >sockets plastic housing wears out rather quickly
>>
>> see above
>>
>> >> IMHO not worth the $$$!! <<
>> >Warning - may cause a major headaches!!!
>>
>> >you are aware that the sticks are for your wheel lug nuts!
>>
>> Yes.
>> I've been searching the Internet for the "theory of operation" of
>> these torq sticks, and haven't been able to find anything yet,
>> although I have come across a lot of other valuable information
>> relating to torque extensions and how to calculate what you should set
>> your torque for when using extensions, with mathematical formulas (
>> simple algebra ).
>>
>> I am still baffled at the theory of operation of these things.
>> You can't explain it to me because you said you had plastic break-away
>> parts in yours. These things involve no plastic whatsoever, and are
>> popular with many DEALERSHIPS around here. The techs tell me they use
>> them extensively, and have no complaints.
>>
>> But they didn't have time to take me through the *theory*.
>>
>> Thanks anyhow.
>>
>> Lg
>>
>
>"Billy dumb ass" is a complete and total moron.
>
>Ignore his posts.

I think he means well. He's just got that California *tude.* Too
much sunshine.

I've got the Northern Illinois *tude.* Too little sunshine 8-)

Lg

"Lawrence Glickman" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:42:51 -0500, Mike Romain >
> wrote:
>
> >They work very poorly and are one of the biggest causes of failed
brake
> >rotors going.
>
> I guess the bottom line is, do you think I should take them back for a
> refund ???
>
> They've never been used and I still have the box and original
> packaging.
>
> Please reply.
>
> Lg
>

If you're not a professional doing flat rate work, it's
my personal opinion that they're not cost effective
and a standard torque wrench is a better alternative.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:24:34 -0600, "*" > wrote:

>"Lawrence Glickman" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:42:51 -0500, Mike Romain >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >They work very poorly and are one of the biggest causes of failed
>brake
>> >rotors going.
>>
>> I guess the bottom line is, do you think I should take them back for a
>> refund ???
>>
>> They've never been used and I still have the box and original
>> packaging.
>>
>> Please reply.
>>
>> Lg
>>
>
>If you're not a professional doing flat rate work, it's
>my personal opinion that they're not cost effective
>and a standard torque wrench is a better alternative.
>

Thanks noone !

I was waiting for some professional advice. I'll take them back, get
my money and go to sears to get a _real_ torque wrench.

Leaving for Indiana now, with New in Box sticks, original packaging
and receipt. If they give me any *stuff,* I will just tell them that
my pro-mechanic friend told me to bring em back!

Lg

Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:42:51 -0500, Mike Romain >
> wrote:
>
> >They work very poorly and are one of the biggest causes of failed brake
> >rotors going.
>
> Oops. This isn't good news. I wonder why my local dealership uses
> them then. I mean if the mechanics should know better, they
> apparently do not ;0
>
> >Some techs are just plain lazy so they use these torque sticks on their
> >impact guns instead of finishing putting a wheel on with a proper torque
> >wrench like they are supposed to.
>
> 3 or 4 % isn't the worst thing you can do to your lug nuts. Do you
> think that 99.99% of all vehicle owners have their lugs within 4% of
> eachother ? I would be surprised if they were within 10 % of
> eachother.
>
> >The torque sticks bend and get springy in the twist when they reach
> >their supposed torque level so the impact driver just bounces.
>
> Yes, it has been mentioned to stop application of energy when the nut
> stops moving on the lug.
>
> >The problem is even new ones have a 5% or so tolerance and once used,
> >that changes for the worst. You can only flex metal so much before it
> >gives some. Even 'real' torque wrenches need calibration now and then.
>
> So I've noticed.
>
> >So if they have gone to say 10% tolerance 'for easy numbers' on a wheel
> >lug nut that is supposed to be at 100 ft lb, you could have one lug at
> >90 and one at 110 and still think it's working ok meanwhile you just
> >warped the rotor.
>
> Those must be some crappy rotors if they are going to warp with that
> little of a difference between the lug nut torques.
>
> >Even at 5% new specs, that means one can be at 105 ft lb and the rest
> >all at 95 ft lbs or any combination which still can/will warp a rotor,
> >especially the crappy Chrysler ones....
>
> They must be incredible crap for that small amount of difference to
> make that much difference.
>
> >For all intents and purposes, I think they are garbage and I will always
> >use a proper torque wrench on tires (and other parts) like they taught
> >us back in the 70's when mag wheels came out. Impact wrenches were
> >warping them too....
>
> Well let's think about it. I can use a torque stick to take the nuts
> up to some lower number, and then finish topping them off with a
> calibrated wrench, eliminating 85% of the misery of doing these things
> all by hand.
>
> >Mike
>
> Thanks Mike.
>
> Lg

You are correct in saying the new 'composite' or whatever the are rotors
are absolute crap and they 'can't' take that difference in torque. I
have been told manufacturers now have TSB's out stating the need for a
real torque wrench.

I mean even back in the 70's 'torque sticks' on guns weren't good enough
for Mag rims like I mentioned so we got notices to use real wrenches.
They still had solid rotors back then....

The proper way to use them is your idea at the end. Take them up close
with the gun and stick and finish with a real torque wrench. I'll bet
you will be really surprised to see just how far off the sticks are when
you do this.

I don't know about tire shops elsewhere, but the ones I take my Jeeps to
use the gun with the stick, then finish with the hand wrench like they
are supposed to and the rotors on both of mine are still fine.

The ones on my Cherokee are getting close to needing new finally due to
wearing thin. They have 305K km on them and as far as I know are
original. (only one owner before me) My CJ7's had 145K miles or so on
them when I changed them just because I was doing a frame up rebuild and
it got all new for brakes.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

I replied some in the other part of the thread.

The only real use I can see for them is when you use your impact gun you
can safely stop before top torque called for and finish by hand which by
the way is the proper use for them. They are for people in a hurry to
help speed it up, not for them to be the only source of torque.

Can you imaging tightening a head down and having maybe 20 or more ft lb
difference on the bolts? Or a crank side to side on one rod bearing
cap?

I can't see any real use for them if you are a back yard mechanic.....

My $0.02,

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:42:51 -0500, Mike Romain >
> wrote:
>
> >They work very poorly and are one of the biggest causes of failed brake
> >rotors going.
>
> I guess the bottom line is, do you think I should take them back for a
> refund ???
>
> They've never been used and I still have the box and original
> packaging.
>
> Please reply.
>
> Lg