HELP - SW1 fuel pump not running

I hope there is still someone here.

I have a 98 SW1 that has not been on the road for a couple of years but has
been regularly (@ 2-3 months) started and driven around a large yard to keep
the gears and engine oiled. I always let the engine warm up fully and
changed all fluids before putting in storage. Gas tank has been kept full
with premium gas.

The engine has always started easily and is in no way worn out (130k km.).

When I recently tried to start the car,
starter worked properly,
would not fire,
waited, then turned the key to run ( not starter) and listened for the fuel
pump but could not hear the typical couple of seconds of operation.
checked the fuse and found it burned out.
changed battery, and fuse,
no pump sound, burned new fuse,
put primer gas in air intake,
engine started right up and ran fine till gas gone,
exchanged fuel pump relay and installed new fuse,
still no sound from pump ( maybe a slight short sound ???)
does not seem to be burning fuses immediately ???
still will not start.

What should I do next ? In the old days I would just give the pump a smack,
but this pump is in the tank, and I do not want to pull it as it is a lot of
work.

I am looking for suggestions, as I want to eliminate the easy stuff first
and hope that I am missing something obvious.

TIA

Private wrote:
> I hope there is still someone here.
>
> I have a 98 SW1 that has not been on the road for a couple of years but has
> been regularly (@ 2-3 months) started and driven around a large yard to keep
> the gears and engine oiled. I always let the engine warm up fully and
> changed all fluids before putting in storage. Gas tank has been kept full
> with premium gas.
>
> The engine has always started easily and is in no way worn out (130k km.).
>
> When I recently tried to start the car,
> starter worked properly,
> would not fire,
> waited, then turned the key to run ( not starter) and listened for the fuel
> pump but could not hear the typical couple of seconds of operation.
> checked the fuse and found it burned out.
> changed battery, and fuse,
> no pump sound, burned new fuse,
> put primer gas in air intake,
> engine started right up and ran fine till gas gone,
> exchanged fuel pump relay and installed new fuse,
> still no sound from pump ( maybe a slight short sound ???)
> does not seem to be burning fuses immediately ???
> still will not start.
>
> What should I do next ? In the old days I would just give the pump a smack,
> but this pump is in the tank, and I do not want to pull it as it is a lot of
> work.
>
> I am looking for suggestions, as I want to eliminate the easy stuff first
> and hope that I am missing something obvious.
>

If you've changed the fuse and the fuel pump relay and the fuel pump
will still not run, you're pretty much down to the fuel pump itself. To
remove it, you have to drop the fuel tank down from under the car and
fuel pump is mounted in the top of the tank. Try and get as much of the
gas out of the tank as you can before you lower the tank. The gas
weighs 7 lbs per gallon so ten gallons of gas is 70 lbs and is much
more difficult to handle. Also, there is a fire danger from gasoline
fumes when you open the tank so try and remove the tank outdoors away
from the many sources of ignition that exist indoors. The fuel might
have failed due to the formation of a lot of gunk around the pump as the
gas in the tank aged over the years or it might have failed from water
in the bottom of the tank which froze and then the pump was activated or
something like that. There's all kinds of stuff that happens with cars
that are not driven for an extended length of time.
--
Posted with OS/2 Warp 4.52
and Sea Monkey 1.5a

There should be a connector near where the harness goes to the fuel tank.
Disconnect it - you may be able to get to it without dropping the tank. Pull
the fuel pump fuse and measure fuel pump current with an ammeter. With the
pump disconnected, there should be no current flow. Looking for a short
circuit in the harness before you drop the tank...

One question though. Did you replace the fuel filter? If the filter gets
plugged, the fuel pump pressure gets very high and can damage the pump or
just blow fuses eventually. Any water in the fuel system tends to plug a
filter almost immediately. Water molecules are much larger than gasoline
molecules and plug the pores in the filter membrane. Pull the filter and let
it drain into a glass jar. Look for water droplets. If you can blow through
the filter (after it drains) - use a tube to blow through, the filter isn't
plugged.

While the filter is out, you can put an extension hose on the fuel line from
the tank. Have someone turn the key to the on position. The fuel pump should
run for about a second and stop if there are no trigger pulses from the
engine (signaling engine rotation). If the pump is still good, you should
get some fuel delivery.

If you do wind up replacing the pump, be very careful. Even if you manage to
drain or siphon all the fuel out of the tank, the fumes alone are explosive.
Remove the negative battery terminal. Remove all connections to the tank and
drop the tank. Helps to make a stack of 2x4's cris-crossed under the tank to
help let it down slowly. Most of the tanks are plastic these days so
sparking is not as big a problem.
Back in the day when tanks were all metal, you'd wet down all the joints
with something like WD-40 and and use brass tools (drift and mallet) to
remove the locking ring that holds the pump into the tank. Brass is
non-sparking and is less of a problem for ignition. Back in the day, there
was always an access plate to get to the top of the fuel tank under the rear
seat. Haven't seen one of those in some time.
Don't forget to move your drained fuel far away from the work area and keep
a BIG dry chemical or CO2 fire extinguisher close at hand!



"Private" > wrote in message
...
> I hope there is still someone here.
>
> I have a 98 SW1 that has not been on the road for a couple of years but
> has
> been regularly (@ 2-3 months) started and driven around a large yard to
> keep
> the gears and engine oiled. I always let the engine warm up fully and
> changed all fluids before putting in storage. Gas tank has been kept full
> with premium gas.
>
> The engine has always started easily and is in no way worn out (130k km.).
>
> When I recently tried to start the car,
> starter worked properly,
> would not fire,
> waited, then turned the key to run ( not starter) and listened for the
> fuel
> pump but could not hear the typical couple of seconds of operation.
> checked the fuse and found it burned out.
> changed battery, and fuse,
> no pump sound, burned new fuse,
> put primer gas in air intake,
> engine started right up and ran fine till gas gone,
> exchanged fuel pump relay and installed new fuse,
> still no sound from pump ( maybe a slight short sound ???)
> does not seem to be burning fuses immediately ???
> still will not start.
>
> What should I do next ? In the old days I would just give the pump a
> smack,
> but this pump is in the tank, and I do not want to pull it as it is a lot
> of
> work.
>
> I am looking for suggestions, as I want to eliminate the easy stuff first
> and hope that I am missing something obvious.
>
> TIA
>
>
>
>

In article >, "Oppie" > wrote:
>There should be a connector near where the harness goes to the fuel tank.
>Disconnect it - you may be able to get to it without dropping the tank. Pull
>the fuel pump fuse and measure fuel pump current with an ammeter. With the
>pump disconnected, there should be no current flow. Looking for a short
>circuit in the harness before you drop the tank...

That's good advice... but what follows is pure nonsense.

>One question though. Did you replace the fuel filter? If the filter gets
>plugged, the fuel pump pressure gets very high and can damage the pump or
>just blow fuses eventually. Any water in the fuel system tends to plug a
>filter almost immediately. Water molecules are much larger than gasoline
>molecules

Garbage.

Gasoline is mostly heptane, and a heptane molecule is FAR larger than a water
molecule. Water consists of one oxygen atom and two hydrogens. A carbon atom
is a bit smaller than an oxygen atom, but heptane has *seven* of them, plus
sixteen hydrogens. A water molecule is positively tiny by comparison.

> and plug the pores in the filter membrane.

Bulls**t.

>Pull the filter and let
>it drain into a glass jar. Look for water droplets. If you can blow through
>the filter (after it drains) - use a tube to blow through, the filter isn't
>plugged.

He may have a plugged filter -- but it sure as hell isn't plugged with water.

You can't argue with experience though...
I had a car that I neglected to change the fuel filter for some time. I had
noted that the pump was running noisy and by the time I got a chance to look
into the problem, the pump had failed.

Replaced the pump and filter. tried to blow through the old filter and it
was plugged up. In most fuel injection systems, the only pressure relief is
the fuel pressure regulator on the injector rail. If the fuel lines get
plugged, the pump will run at excessively high pressure, draw higher current
and either blow the fuse or kill the pump itself.

Had another time with a carbureted car that fuel filter screwed into carb
body. Just filled the tank and while going through a bad section of town,
the car died. Long story short, I removed the filter and the car started.
Found about a pint of water in the gas tank that came with the fill-up.

Prove it to yourself with an old filter. you can blow through it. Rinse
water through it and you can't blow through it anymore.


"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Oppie" >
> wrote:
>>There should be a connector near where the harness goes to the fuel tank.
>>Disconnect it - you may be able to get to it without dropping the tank.
>>Pull
>>the fuel pump fuse and measure fuel pump current with an ammeter. With the
>>pump disconnected, there should be no current flow. Looking for a short
>>circuit in the harness before you drop the tank...
>
> That's good advice... but what follows is pure nonsense.
>
>>One question though. Did you replace the fuel filter? If the filter gets
>>plugged, the fuel pump pressure gets very high and can damage the pump or
>>just blow fuses eventually. Any water in the fuel system tends to plug a
>>filter almost immediately. Water molecules are much larger than gasoline
>>molecules
>
> Garbage.
>
> Gasoline is mostly heptane, and a heptane molecule is FAR larger than a
> water
> molecule. Water consists of one oxygen atom and two hydrogens. A carbon
> atom
> is a bit smaller than an oxygen atom, but heptane has *seven* of them,
> plus
> sixteen hydrogens. A water molecule is positively tiny by comparison.
>
>> and plug the pores in the filter membrane.
>
> Bulls**t.
>
>>Pull the filter and let
>>it drain into a glass jar. Look for water droplets. If you can blow
>>through
>>the filter (after it drains) - use a tube to blow through, the filter
>>isn't
>>plugged.
>
> He may have a plugged filter -- but it sure as hell isn't plugged with
> water.
>

In article >, "Oppie" > wrote:
>You can't argue with experience though....

Can't argue with ignorance either, obviously.

"Private" > wrote in message
...
>I hope there is still someone here.
>
> I have a 98 SW1 that has not been on the road for a couple of years but
> has
> been regularly (@ 2-3 months) started and driven around a large yard to
> keep
> the gears and engine oiled. I always let the engine warm up fully and
> changed all fluids before putting in storage. Gas tank has been kept full
> with premium gas.
>
> The engine has always started easily and is in no way worn out (130k km.).
>
> When I recently tried to start the car,
> starter worked properly,
> would not fire,
> waited, then turned the key to run ( not starter) and listened for the
> fuel
> pump but could not hear the typical couple of seconds of operation.
> checked the fuse and found it burned out.
> changed battery, and fuse,
> no pump sound, burned new fuse,
> put primer gas in air intake,
> engine started right up and ran fine till gas gone,
> exchanged fuel pump relay and installed new fuse,
> still no sound from pump ( maybe a slight short sound ???)
> does not seem to be burning fuses immediately ???
> still will not start.
>
> What should I do next ? In the old days I would just give the pump a
> smack,
> but this pump is in the tank, and I do not want to pull it as it is a lot
> of
> work.
>
> I am looking for suggestions, as I want to eliminate the easy stuff first
> and hope that I am missing something obvious.
>
> TIA

After ckecking the obvious and asking for advice here and elsewhere -

I towed the car out of the high grass onto the smooth gravel where I could
get under it for inspection and for access to the filter and fuel lines if
needed.
As reported above, I had earlier changed the battery for a known functional
(but older and used) one just in case the battery was part of the problem,
but no change. I had also tried both used batteries with my charger
connected and after charging for a while.

I always like to enter the winter season with good batteries and at least
one good spare ready for use if needed. IMHE batteries that seem to be
functioning just fine in the summer will often fail at the first sign of
cold and can cause other system damage when they fail. Before really
getting serious and tearing anything apart, I thought I should install my
newest battery (which I just purchased for another car).
BINGO, turned the key, heard the pump then engine started right up and ran
perfectly.

I might have dislodged or vibrated something when moving the vehicle or
tapping the tank, but I doubt it as the ground was pretty smooth and I did
not get too aggressive.

I suspect that this is just another example of -
1 - don't get in a hurry,
2 - consult the manual, and knowledgable others,
3 - think about the problem
4 - do the easiest and most obvious stuff first.

Thanks all here for their input, I will be buying a couple of new batteries
as I prepare for winter. The older ones will go into machinery I use mainly
in the summer months and do not need to depend on in winter.

Good luck, YMMV

"Private" > wrote in message
...
> After ckecking the obvious and asking for advice here and elsewhere -
>
> I towed the car out of the high grass onto the smooth gravel where I could
> get under it for inspection and for access to the filter and fuel lines if
> needed.
> As reported above, I had earlier changed the battery for a known
> functional (but older and used) one just in case the battery was part of
> the problem, but no change. I had also tried both used batteries with my
> charger connected and after charging for a while.
>
> I always like to enter the winter season with good batteries and at least
> one good spare ready for use if needed. IMHE batteries that seem to be
> functioning just fine in the summer will often fail at the first sign of
> cold and can cause other system damage when they fail. Before really
> getting serious and tearing anything apart, I thought I should install my
> newest battery (which I just purchased for another car).
> BINGO, turned the key, heard the pump then engine started right up and ran
> perfectly.
>
> I might have dislodged or vibrated something when moving the vehicle or
> tapping the tank, but I doubt it as the ground was pretty smooth and I did
> not get too aggressive.
>
> I suspect that this is just another example of -
> 1 - don't get in a hurry,
> 2 - consult the manual, and knowledgable others,
> 3 - think about the problem
> 4 - do the easiest and most obvious stuff first.
>
> Thanks all here for their input, I will be buying a couple of new
> batteries as I prepare for winter. The older ones will go into machinery
> I use mainly in the summer months and do not need to depend on in winter.
>
> Good luck, YMMV


I'm not convinced that you solved the root problem. A vehicle that old
invariably develops a bit of oxidation on chassis ground points and
sometimes on connector pins. If any of the wire harnesses were abraded -
particularly ones exposed to the elements, the wire core itself can corrode
and give an intermittent circuit.

True that some cars have very little allowance for low battery voltage while
cranking. I believe that the absolute minimum voltage allowable to start the
engine while cranking is 8V and probably closer to 9V. A new battery usually
does not have as great a voltage drop while cranking.

If it were my car, I would remove the fuel pump relay and bridge it -
forcing the pump to run. Assuming that your injectors are not leaking, this
should not let any fuel into the intake manifold.
Now, go through the entire harness from the fuel pump relay back to the tank
and wiggle wires, tap connectors... You should be able to hear the pump
running and hear when/if it stops when you touch something.

Don't recall on that car if there is a crank angle sensor (this car doesn't
have a distributor??). Either way, something generates timing pulses when
the engine is rotating to fire the spark plugs, inject fuel at the right
time... If that pulse is intermittent, no starting. About that era, lots of
cars had reluctor coils in the distributors to generate the ECU timing
pulse. Most common problem an open coil. Remember, no pulse, no spark and no
fuel pump.
Like I wrote previously, at key on, the pump will run for about a second to
prime the system. If there are no timing pulses, the pump shuts off again.

Good luck
Oppie (2001 lw300)

"Oppie" > wrote in message
...
> "Private" > wrote in message
> ...
>> After ckecking the obvious and asking for advice here and elsewhere -
>>
>> I towed the car out of the high grass onto the smooth gravel where I
>> could get under it for inspection and for access to the filter and fuel
>> lines if needed.
>> As reported above, I had earlier changed the battery for a known
>> functional (but older and used) one just in case the battery was part of
>> the problem, but no change. I had also tried both used batteries with my
>> charger connected and after charging for a while.
>>
>> I always like to enter the winter season with good batteries and at least
>> one good spare ready for use if needed. IMHE batteries that seem to be
>> functioning just fine in the summer will often fail at the first sign of
>> cold and can cause other system damage when they fail. Before really
>> getting serious and tearing anything apart, I thought I should install my
>> newest battery (which I just purchased for another car).
>> BINGO, turned the key, heard the pump then engine started right up and
>> ran perfectly.
>>
>> I might have dislodged or vibrated something when moving the vehicle or
>> tapping the tank, but I doubt it as the ground was pretty smooth and I
>> did not get too aggressive.
>>
>> I suspect that this is just another example of -
>> 1 - don't get in a hurry,
>> 2 - consult the manual, and knowledgable others,
>> 3 - think about the problem
>> 4 - do the easiest and most obvious stuff first.
>>
>> Thanks all here for their input, I will be buying a couple of new
>> batteries as I prepare for winter. The older ones will go into machinery
>> I use mainly in the summer months and do not need to depend on in winter.
>>
>> Good luck, YMMV
>
>
> I'm not convinced that you solved the root problem. A vehicle that old
> invariably develops a bit of oxidation on chassis ground points and
> sometimes on connector pins. If any of the wire harnesses were abraded -
> particularly ones exposed to the elements, the wire core itself can
> corrode and give an intermittent circuit.
>
> True that some cars have very little allowance for low battery voltage
> while cranking. I believe that the absolute minimum voltage allowable to
> start the engine while cranking is 8V and probably closer to 9V. A new
> battery usually does not have as great a voltage drop while cranking.
>
> If it were my car, I would remove the fuel pump relay and bridge it -
> forcing the pump to run. Assuming that your injectors are not leaking,
> this should not let any fuel into the intake manifold.
> Now, go through the entire harness from the fuel pump relay back to the
> tank and wiggle wires, tap connectors... You should be able to hear the
> pump running and hear when/if it stops when you touch something.
>
> Don't recall on that car if there is a crank angle sensor (this car
> doesn't have a distributor??). Either way, something generates timing
> pulses when the engine is rotating to fire the spark plugs, inject fuel at
> the right time... If that pulse is intermittent, no starting. About that
> era, lots of cars had reluctor coils in the distributors to generate the
> ECU timing pulse. Most common problem an open coil. Remember, no pulse, no
> spark and no fuel pump.
> Like I wrote previously, at key on, the pump will run for about a second
> to prime the system. If there are no timing pulses, the pump shuts off
> again.
>
> Good luck
> Oppie (2001 lw300)

I agree with your comment regarding ground connections. My policy has been
to always clean (and dielectric grease) ALL ground connections at the FIRST
sign of electrical problems or aging and in fact had done this PM on all my
Saturns this spring, (including the ground that requires the removal of the
battery tray).

In conversation with a Saturn tech last week I was told that in his opinion
all Saturn wiring is undersized by a size or two and that he has had to
replace several harnesses in his work. In the old days it was common
practice to pierce the wiring with a probe when testing for power but this
allows moisture to enter the wire and cause corrosion. I would think that
this would be even more of a problem with undersized wire.

I am hoping that I have solved my problem but will keep your suggestions in
mind if I have continuing problems. Thanks for your input.

"Private" > wrote in message
...
>
> I agree with your comment regarding ground connections. My policy has
> been to always clean (and dielectric grease) ALL ground connections at the
> FIRST sign of electrical problems or aging and in fact had done this PM
> on all my Saturns this spring, (including the ground that requires the
> removal of the battery tray).
>
> In conversation with a Saturn tech last week I was told that in his
> opinion all Saturn wiring is undersized by a size or two and that he has
> had to replace several harnesses in his work. In the old days it was
> common practice to pierce the wiring with a probe when testing for power
> but this allows moisture to enter the wire and cause corrosion. I would
> think that this would be even more of a problem with undersized wire.
>
> I am hoping that I have solved my problem but will keep your suggestions
> in mind if I have continuing problems. Thanks for your input.

Remember that dielectric grease is non-conductive. It will do a good job of
sealing any iffy connections against further corrosion. The best connection
to ground is with a 'gas tight' connection that bites through any surface
insulation. If there is a ground stud, for example. I remove the wires from
the stud and put about 10 amps through it while measuring voltage drop with
a meter. I have a fixture with an old headlamp which clips to the battery+
and has a long lead for measuring chassis grounds. I've seen a few studs
where the chassis connection is poor. Always good to use toothed lock
washers (external tooth preferred). I learned the 'gas tight' bit when
working on military equipment. The force of the connections keeps any oxygen
from the connection and causing corrosion. I usually apply a bit of white
grease from a spray can over the ground connections.

Yeah, I hear you about the punctured connections. I always cringed when I
saw techs doing that. Happens less now among pros who have access to good
computer diagnostic gear. These days everything goes through a computer and
can be diagnosed if you have big bucks to buy the equipment. Whenever I have
to pierce a wire, I have a syringe of RTV caulk that fills in the hole.