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Just let them do it without saying a word or else.



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 6th 08, 11:26 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
Matthew Russotto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,429
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

In article >,
Brent P > wrote:
>On 2008-10-06, Harry K > wrote:
>
>> I happen to agree that that is what _should_ be. Reality though is
>> that you will rarely win an argument with a cop. Pushing it will
>> usually result in a trip to the grey bar hotel. Thus one must decide
>> just how far one wants to stick up for principles in view of the high
>> cost and probability of losing.

>
>There is something to be said for learning *how* to argue with cops. The
>problem is it takes practice and understanding.


There isn't a way, because you could use the softest words possible
(or none at all), and it will go down in the police report that you
were shouting, waving your arms, etc. Cops lie. They don't report
the facts, they report a story designed to get a conviction, with some
specific details added to provide verisimilitude.
--
It's times like these which make me glad my bank is Dial-a-Mattress
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  #12  
Old October 7th 08, 12:29 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
N8N
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,477
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On Oct 6, 12:41*am, Brent P >
wrote:
> On 2008-10-06, Harry K > wrote:
>
> > I happen to agree that that is what _should_ be. *Reality though is
> > that you will rarely win an argument with a cop. *Pushing it will
> > usually result in a trip to the grey bar hotel. *Thus one must decide
> > just how far one wants to stick up for principles in view of the high
> > cost and probability of losing.

>
> There is something to be said for learning *how* to argue with cops. The
> problem is it takes practice and understanding.
>
> The biggest problem is cops have one tool, a hammer, so all problems to
> them look like nails.


I'm not sure I want to know how one acquires practice at arguing with
a cop. It seems to me that it would not be a pleasant learning curve.

nate
  #13  
Old October 7th 08, 01:29 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On 2008-10-06, Matthew Russotto > wrote:
> In article >,
> Brent P > wrote:
>>On 2008-10-06, Harry K > wrote:
>>
>>> I happen to agree that that is what _should_ be. Reality though is
>>> that you will rarely win an argument with a cop. Pushing it will
>>> usually result in a trip to the grey bar hotel. Thus one must decide
>>> just how far one wants to stick up for principles in view of the high
>>> cost and probability of losing.

>>
>>There is something to be said for learning *how* to argue with cops. The
>>problem is it takes practice and understanding.


> There isn't a way, because you could use the softest words possible
> (or none at all), and it will go down in the police report that you
> were shouting, waving your arms, etc. Cops lie. They don't report
> the facts, they report a story designed to get a conviction, with some
> specific details added to provide verisimilitude.


There is a way so long as you aren't dealing with a total scumbag of a
cop. I wouldn't be typing this if there wasn't. When dealing with a
total scumbag with a badge even total submission is a risk. When someone
is that evil, submission may send a message that he can take more and he
will. Submission has its own set of risks. Cases of women being raped by
cops they submitted to are not unheard of.



  #14  
Old October 7th 08, 01:42 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On 2008-10-06, N8N > wrote:
> On Oct 6, 12:41*am, Brent P >
> wrote:
>> On 2008-10-06, Harry K > wrote:
>>
>> > I happen to agree that that is what _should_ be. *Reality though is
>> > that you will rarely win an argument with a cop. *Pushing it will
>> > usually result in a trip to the grey bar hotel. *Thus one must decide
>> > just how far one wants to stick up for principles in view of the high
>> > cost and probability of losing.

>>
>> There is something to be said for learning *how* to argue with cops. The
>> problem is it takes practice and understanding.
>>
>> The biggest problem is cops have one tool, a hammer, so all problems to
>> them look like nails.

>
> I'm not sure I want to know how one acquires practice at arguing with
> a cop. It seems to me that it would not be a pleasant learning curve.


It hasn't been pleasant but I have no intention of giving up vehicular
bicycling, so I've had to learn how to deal with them. I don't even have
to be bicycling now... two of the last three.... one came after me
because I 'made a face' at him when he turned left in front me forcing
me to stop, the other I was just walking home with my sammich and fries
and they decided I fit an extremely vague description they had of
someone who broke a window and did the full COPs rutine. I just about
lost it when the lead cop started his loud commanding forcible 'just
tell us you did it' routine on me....

I understand Bush has northcom setting up or set up a unit to do
policing. People should have resisted a long time ago, the longer they
go without resisting these violations of their liberty the harder it
will become to resist.



  #15  
Old October 7th 08, 06:53 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
Ed Pirrero
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On Oct 6, 9:15*pm, Ashton Crusher > wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:13:44 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Oct 5, 1:48*pm, Ashton Crusher > wrote:
> >> On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 01:09:17 -0700, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."

>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >"Brent P" > wrote in message
> >> ...

>
> >> >> Why is life becoming more like grade school? Someone is a total MFFY to
> >> >> you, and if you object in the least you're the one that's the problem.

>
> >> >>http://www.lcsun-news.com/news/ci_10634834

>
> >> >> "According to court documents, York and his wife were in their car,
> >> >> looking for a parking spot in the Target lot on East Lohman Avenue, when
> >> >> they spotted a vehicle pulling out of a parking space. Before the Yorks
> >> >> could pull into the space, an unidentified woman whipped into the spot
> >> >> and parked.

>
> >> >I happen to have a different viewpoint of this reported incident and court
> >> >settlement...

>
> >> >That someone else gets into a parking space first happens in many crowded
> >> >places, including shopping malls and beach area parking lots. It sucks, and
> >> >is very inconsiderate, but parking is always about the one who can get into
> >> >the spot first. That said, I would also agree that courtesy should be used,
> >> >but technically it's not required by law (i.e., there is no vehicle code
> >> >that I can find that requires yielding general/non-reserved/non-restricted
> >> >parking spaces).

>
> >> >(So if someone passed me while I was waiting for a parking spot and pulled
> >> >in first, I would certainly have a very low opinion of them but then again
> >> >if someone is that inconsiderate, it's probably also not a good idea to
> >> >provoke them with angry speech or profanity. If they came in the other
> >> >direction and pulled in first, then it's somewhat debatable whether or not
> >> >they cut me off or if I was just too slow in pulling into the spot. If they
> >> >cut me off as I was in the motion of actually pulling into the parking lot,
> >> >then that's more than just being inconsiderate and borders on reckless
> >> >driving. A good long honk of the horn might be called for, but again if they
> >> >are that dangerous in their driving then it's probably also not a good idea
> >> >to provoke them with angry speech or profanity.)

>
> >> >> Gallegos, who happened to be on duty and in the parking lot, overheard
> >> >> York, whose car windows were down, say either "bitch" or "what a bitch,"
> >> >> the documents state.

>
> >> >Certainly not the worst of profane words, but it's profanity nevertheless
> >> >and maybe could even eventually escalate to a road rage type of incident of
> >> >some type if the profanity ends up getting a followup verbal response..

>
> >> >> Gallegos said the comment was heard by him as well as man and a
> >> >> 5-year-old child, who were nearby.

>
> >> >> Once out of his car, York was confronted by Gallegos, who told him he
> >> >> could be arrested for causing a disturbance. An argument between the two
> >> >> ensued. Gallegos called for backup, and Lucero and Martinez responded."

>
> >> >If he was out of his car, presumably, he had already found another parking
> >> >space. So then cop says he *could* be arrested, and the guy doesn't leave
> >> >well enough alone and argues with the cop? How STUPID is that? Just
> >> >apologize to the officer and then let it be. (As I read it, the arrest
> >> >didn't occur until after the argument and backup was called.)

>
> >> >That means the settlement probably came down to the police officer's arrest
> >> >technique, as in had the police officer not used a technique that was
> >> >contrary to his training, it's likely that the city would have not had to
> >> >settle at all.

>
> >> I agree with you on the last part but only because we have become a
> >> police state. *There is ZERO basis for the cops to have even stuck
> >> their nose in this whole incident. *In fact, it appears there was NO
> >> incident until the cops decided they couldn't just mind their own
> >> business but simply had to throw their authority around. *It's too bad
> >> that some people may have heard the word "bitch" but that's what
> >> happens in a free society. *If you want to talk "how stupid is that"
> >> you need to direct the comment to the cops who took what was a
> >> situation that was OVER and turned it into a quarter million dollar
> >> expense for the city. *In a free society there should be no fear to
> >> telling a cop he's an ass when he's an ass. *I'm sure you are a nice
> >> guy but the attitude you display (drop trow and bend over on command
> >> of a cop) is why this country is on a downhill slide. *If you read
> >> between the lines on this you can tell that the city could care less
> >> about the cops behavior and rather then condemn his actions, as should
> >> have happened, the pass it off as a "non-standard" arrest technique.
> >> NON-Standard??? *How about ILLEGAL!! *What teh cop did is plain
> >> assault and he should have been arrested and convicted of it. *if you
> >> or I did the same thing that's what would have happened to us. *But as
> >> always, the cops are given a pass for their illegal behavior. *The
> >> only way to stop it is to sue the *******s, something most people have
> >> neither the time nor money to do.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >> - Show quoted text -

>
> >I happen to agree that that is what _should_ be. *Reality though is
> >that you will rarely win an argument with a cop. *Pushing it will
> >usually result in a trip to the grey bar hotel. *Thus one must decide
> >just how far one wants to stick up for principles in view of the high
> >cost and probability of losing.

>
> >Harry K

>
> If no one challenges them then they win by default and the police
> state continues unabated. *And they know it's a high cost to challenge
> them, just as you do and noted above. *That's why the whole thing is
> so pernicious.


Except you draw the wrong conclusion from the reported events.

Calling names is a childish way of registering your displeasure. And
offensive. And just plain rude.

Standing up to MFFY is not a license to be MFFY in return - you still
have to be polite. Otherwise it's just two assholes yelling at one
another.

Being verbally abusive to a police officer has NEVER been a ticket to
success. Which is why you have to THINK before you try and teach
someone a lesson.

E.P.
  #16  
Old October 7th 08, 07:14 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On 2008-10-07, Ed Pirrero > wrote:

> Calling names is a childish way of registering your displeasure. And
> offensive. And just plain rude.


Hmm... sounds like someone, who was that, oh wait, it was you who just
posted a couple times calling me names.. The irony.

  #17  
Old October 7th 08, 02:03 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 336
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On Oct 5, 4:09*am, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr." >
wrote:
> "Brent P" > wrote in message
>
> . ..
>
> > Why is life becoming more like grade school? Someone is a total MFFY to
> > you, and if you object in the least you're the one that's the problem.

>
> >http://www.lcsun-news.com/news/ci_10634834

>
> > "According to court documents, York and his wife were in their car,
> > looking for a parking spot in the Target lot on East Lohman Avenue, when
> > they spotted a vehicle pulling out of a parking space. Before the Yorks
> > could pull into the space, an unidentified woman whipped into the spot
> > and parked.

>
> I happen to have a different viewpoint of this reported incident and court
> settlement...
>
> That someone else gets into a parking space first happens in many crowded
> places, including shopping malls and beach area parking lots. It sucks, and
> is very inconsiderate, but parking is always about the one who can get into
> the spot first. That said, I would also agree that courtesy should be used,
> but technically it's not required by law (i.e., there is no vehicle code
> that I can find that requires yielding general/non-reserved/non-restricted
> parking spaces).
>
> (So if someone passed me while I was waiting for a parking spot and pulled
> in first, I would certainly have a very low opinion of them but then again
> if someone is that inconsiderate, it's probably also not a good idea to
> provoke them with angry speech or profanity. If they came in the other
> direction and pulled in first, then it's somewhat debatable whether or not
> they cut me off or if I was just too slow in pulling into the spot. If they
> cut me off as I was in the motion of actually pulling into the parking lot,
> then that's more than just being inconsiderate and borders on reckless
> driving. A good long honk of the horn might be called for, but again if they
> are that dangerous in their driving then it's probably also not a good idea
> to provoke them with angry speech or profanity.)
>
> > Gallegos, who happened to be on duty and in the parking lot, overheard
> > York, whose car windows were down, say either "bitch" or "what a bitch,"
> > the documents state.

>
> Certainly not the worst of profane words, but it's profanity nevertheless
> and maybe could even eventually escalate to a road rage type of incident of
> some type if the profanity ends up getting a followup verbal response.
>
> > Gallegos said the comment was heard by him as well as man and a
> > 5-year-old child, who were nearby.

>
> > Once out of his car, York was confronted by Gallegos, who told him he
> > could be arrested for causing a disturbance. An argument between the two
> > ensued. Gallegos called for backup, and Lucero and Martinez responded."

>
> If he was out of his car, presumably, he had already found another parking
> space. So then cop says he *could* be arrested, and the guy doesn't leave
> well enough alone and argues with the cop? How STUPID is that? Just
> apologize to the officer and then let it be. (As I read it, the arrest
> didn't occur until after the argument and backup was called.)
>
> That means the settlement probably came down to the police officer's arrest
> technique, as in had the police officer not used a technique that was
> contrary to his training, it's likely that the city would have not had to
> settle at all.


I would have calmy told the cop "No, you can't arrest me for that" and
walked away.


Dave
  #18  
Old October 7th 08, 02:37 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
Harry K
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,331
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On Oct 6, 9:15*pm, Ashton Crusher > wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:13:44 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Oct 5, 1:48*pm, Ashton Crusher > wrote:
> >> On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 01:09:17 -0700, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."

>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >"Brent P" > wrote in message
> >> ...

>
> >> >> Why is life becoming more like grade school? Someone is a total MFFY to
> >> >> you, and if you object in the least you're the one that's the problem.

>
> >> >>http://www.lcsun-news.com/news/ci_10634834

>
> >> >> "According to court documents, York and his wife were in their car,
> >> >> looking for a parking spot in the Target lot on East Lohman Avenue, when
> >> >> they spotted a vehicle pulling out of a parking space. Before the Yorks
> >> >> could pull into the space, an unidentified woman whipped into the spot
> >> >> and parked.

>
> >> >I happen to have a different viewpoint of this reported incident and court
> >> >settlement...

>
> >> >That someone else gets into a parking space first happens in many crowded
> >> >places, including shopping malls and beach area parking lots. It sucks, and
> >> >is very inconsiderate, but parking is always about the one who can get into
> >> >the spot first. That said, I would also agree that courtesy should be used,
> >> >but technically it's not required by law (i.e., there is no vehicle code
> >> >that I can find that requires yielding general/non-reserved/non-restricted
> >> >parking spaces).

>
> >> >(So if someone passed me while I was waiting for a parking spot and pulled
> >> >in first, I would certainly have a very low opinion of them but then again
> >> >if someone is that inconsiderate, it's probably also not a good idea to
> >> >provoke them with angry speech or profanity. If they came in the other
> >> >direction and pulled in first, then it's somewhat debatable whether or not
> >> >they cut me off or if I was just too slow in pulling into the spot. If they
> >> >cut me off as I was in the motion of actually pulling into the parking lot,
> >> >then that's more than just being inconsiderate and borders on reckless
> >> >driving. A good long honk of the horn might be called for, but again if they
> >> >are that dangerous in their driving then it's probably also not a good idea
> >> >to provoke them with angry speech or profanity.)

>
> >> >> Gallegos, who happened to be on duty and in the parking lot, overheard
> >> >> York, whose car windows were down, say either "bitch" or "what a bitch,"
> >> >> the documents state.

>
> >> >Certainly not the worst of profane words, but it's profanity nevertheless
> >> >and maybe could even eventually escalate to a road rage type of incident of
> >> >some type if the profanity ends up getting a followup verbal response..

>
> >> >> Gallegos said the comment was heard by him as well as man and a
> >> >> 5-year-old child, who were nearby.

>
> >> >> Once out of his car, York was confronted by Gallegos, who told him he
> >> >> could be arrested for causing a disturbance. An argument between the two
> >> >> ensued. Gallegos called for backup, and Lucero and Martinez responded."

>
> >> >If he was out of his car, presumably, he had already found another parking
> >> >space. So then cop says he *could* be arrested, and the guy doesn't leave
> >> >well enough alone and argues with the cop? How STUPID is that? Just
> >> >apologize to the officer and then let it be. (As I read it, the arrest
> >> >didn't occur until after the argument and backup was called.)

>
> >> >That means the settlement probably came down to the police officer's arrest
> >> >technique, as in had the police officer not used a technique that was
> >> >contrary to his training, it's likely that the city would have not had to
> >> >settle at all.

>
> >> I agree with you on the last part but only because we have become a
> >> police state. *There is ZERO basis for the cops to have even stuck
> >> their nose in this whole incident. *In fact, it appears there was NO
> >> incident until the cops decided they couldn't just mind their own
> >> business but simply had to throw their authority around. *It's too bad
> >> that some people may have heard the word "bitch" but that's what
> >> happens in a free society. *If you want to talk "how stupid is that"
> >> you need to direct the comment to the cops who took what was a
> >> situation that was OVER and turned it into a quarter million dollar
> >> expense for the city. *In a free society there should be no fear to
> >> telling a cop he's an ass when he's an ass. *I'm sure you are a nice
> >> guy but the attitude you display (drop trow and bend over on command
> >> of a cop) is why this country is on a downhill slide. *If you read
> >> between the lines on this you can tell that the city could care less
> >> about the cops behavior and rather then condemn his actions, as should
> >> have happened, the pass it off as a "non-standard" arrest technique.
> >> NON-Standard??? *How about ILLEGAL!! *What teh cop did is plain
> >> assault and he should have been arrested and convicted of it. *if you
> >> or I did the same thing that's what would have happened to us. *But as
> >> always, the cops are given a pass for their illegal behavior. *The
> >> only way to stop it is to sue the *******s, something most people have
> >> neither the time nor money to do.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >> - Show quoted text -

>
> >I happen to agree that that is what _should_ be. *Reality though is
> >that you will rarely win an argument with a cop. *Pushing it will
> >usually result in a trip to the grey bar hotel. *Thus one must decide
> >just how far one wants to stick up for principles in view of the high
> >cost and probability of losing.

>
> >Harry K

>
> If no one challenges them then they win by default and the police
> state continues unabated. *And they know it's a high cost to challenge
> them, just as you do and noted above. *That's why the whole thing is
> so pernicious.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


But you see the cop _was_ challenged and lost and if he still has a
job he isn't about to do that ever again. The _effective_ challenge
was not one-on-one on the street though, it was in the courts. The
street challenge was not only ineffective, it cost the person big
time.

Harry K

  #19  
Old October 7th 08, 03:10 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On 2008-10-07, Harry K > wrote:
> But you see the cop _was_ challenged and lost and if he still has a
> job he isn't about to do that ever again. The _effective_ challenge
> was not one-on-one on the street though, it was in the courts. The
> street challenge was not only ineffective, it cost the person big
> time.


You don't get the court case without standing up in the one-on-one. If
you lick the cops boots and the cop is satisified with the boot licking
there is no court challenge. The actions of the cop are never reviewed
and they will be repeated until he's no longer satisified with someone
licking his boots and he goes ape on someone who did submit or someone
else stands up to him.

That's assuming that the courts are the independent body we are told
they are. In reality, the courts are part of government. Sure, sometimes
in specific instance the court may be the part of a different or larger
government body than one being challenged, but often they will be the
same. It's really a crap shoot if one is going to get anything even
approaching 'fair' in a government court when challenging the
government.

Also, if people don't resist 'on the street' then the government
employees become more bold, they will push further, as any bully would
do. What's the quote...

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have
been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make
an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to
say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as
for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire
city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror
at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase,
but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up
in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes,
hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? . . ." -Alexander
Solzhenitsyn

Certainly not to that extreme yet, but the theme is the same. The reason
we have the mess we do have is that people don't stand up. A cop becomes
conditioned to being the law when 99 people back down to him and then
when one stands up to him he explodes. These government employees would
learn their place if more people would simply stand up for themselves.



  #20  
Old October 7th 08, 03:28 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
gpsman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,233
Default Just let them do it without saying a word or else.

On Oct 7, 10:10 am, Brent P >
wrote:
>
> Certainly not to that extreme yet, but the theme is the same.


Yeah, and a hurricane and light breeze are both "winds".

> The reason
> we have the mess we do have is that people don't stand up. A cop becomes
> conditioned to being the law when 99 people back down to him and then
> when one stands up to him he explodes. These government employees would
> learn their place if more people would simply stand up for themselves.


Please relate some of your "standing up to a cop" stories. You've
reported more interactions with cops than anyone I've ever heard of,
so this should be an easy one...
-----

- gpsman
 




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