Nice day for a drive / T1R thoughts

pws wrote:
> tooloud wrote:
>
>> Oh, no, Lanny, not this again. It simply wasn't plausible to believe
>> that the old T1-Ss stuck better in the wet than an all-season in the
>> dry, and it isn't plausible to think the T1-Rs do, either.
>>
>> I was very happy with the performance of the T1-S in the dry, but
>> found the wet handling to be rather atrocious. I could often feel
>> both rear wheels step out just an inch or two in the rain even while
>> making slow turns on side streeets.
>>
>> In any case, if you're happy with the wet performance of the Toyos,
>> that's great, but don't claim that they handle wet roads better than
>> a "regular" all-season tire handles dry pavement; someone might
>> actually believe it. I mean, when you really consider the situation,
>> are you really comfortable saying that you'd be faster through a wet
>> autocross with the T1-Rs than an identical car and driver would be
>> through a completely dry course with all-seasons?
>
>
> 100% complete agreement.
>
> "The Toyo T1-R! The magical wonder tire, not limited by the laws of
> physics like the tires produced by other manufacturers".

Exactly. Now, I enjoy contributing to RAMMM, but there is definitely some
heavy bias towards certain products, including the Toyo tires, and the Miata
in general. Sure, it's a *Miata* newsgroup, so the Miata part is to be
expected, but don't get caught casually mentioning that the Honda S2000 is a
pretty good car, too. I think my favorite "bias" is towards the 2-seat
nature of the Miata--go ahead, casually mention that you might need a
vehicle bigger than a Miata and you'll have a dozen people explaining that
since their Miata is their only car, it should be big enough for everyone
else, too. Shhh! Don't tell anyone...I'm thinking of buying an RX-8!

Now, obviously I'm not speaking about you, Pat, because you replied to my
post *and* because you started the Hankook thread, which made me chuckle out
loud because I knew you were talking about the Ventus tires that they were
talking about on another group I frequent. I've talked to a lot of people
that love the Ventus, but I wonder if anyone else here would have even given
them a chance if you hadn't taken the time to mention them.

--
tooloud
Remove nothing to reply

"tooloud" > wrote:

>but don't get caught casually mentioning that the Honda S2000 is a
>pretty good car, too.

Why not? It is frequently mentioned here and generally agreed with that
it is a very good car. I just do not like its plastic toy car looks
and before I call something a convertible, I want the doors to
stop towering before they reach my ears. If I had found the looks
of the S-2000 anywhere near acceptable, I would have been driving
one for years, no question about it. I have been needing a more reliable
backup for Bozo a long time.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bess, the Miata Bozo, the Miata
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas

"Frank Berger" > wrote:

>
>"tooloud" > wrote in message
>news:BezXf.74197$oL.15783@attbi_s71...
>> Leon van Dommelen wrote:
>>> Scott Hughes > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lanny Chambers > wrote in news:lanny-
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> Sunny, mid 50s, light wind, and the roads have been washed clean of
>>>>> sand and salt--a perfect afternoon for the year's first serious
>>>>> top-down jaunt into the Ozarks. We headed south for the Two-hour
>>>>> Loop, about 100 miles that include three of our favorite twisty
>>>>> backroads. The centerpiece, a 10-mile blacktop section through the
>>>>> national forest with no traffic, no intersections, and only two
>>>>> straights, was in surprisingly good condition, with no potholes or
>>>>> loose gravel.
>>>>
>>>> Any chance you could provide the details of that tour? As fellow St.
>>>> Louisans, My brother (10AE), a friend (black 06), and I (black 94B)
>>>> would love to check it out sometime this year.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I learned that the T1R (195/50-15 @ 28psi on 6.5" wheels) responds
>>>>> even better to subtle throttle input than its predecessor, the T1-S.
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever had the Yoko AVS ES100's? I'm gonna be buying new
>>>> 14"ers in the next couple weeks and it's either the Yokos or the
>>>> T1Rs. Also, have you had the T1Rs out in the rain yet? If so,
>>>> how'd they do?
>>>
>>> Car and Driver did not seem that impressed with the Toyo T1R.
>>>
>>> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y_f1_gs_d3.jsp
>>
>> No, they weren't. I've decided that people fawn over the Toyos for the
>> same reason they used to fawn over Clearwater speakers; the Miata
>> community led them to believe that they were something special, when in
>> reality there were a dozen other products available for a similar price
>> that probably did a better job.
>>
>> --
>> tooloud
>> Remove nothing to reply
>>
>
>Any chance they were reviewed badly because Tirerack doesn't carry them and
>Tirerack advertises in Car and Driver?

Don't you think that Car and Driver are smart enough to realize that if they
went in for that thing, they would quickly get a certain reputation? People
*talk*. Word gets out that knowledgeable other sources (competing magazines,
tire manufacturers, professional drivers, tire experts at car companies,
tire experts at universities, tire experts at competing tire vendors,
retired tire experts with no bone to grind, and even Toyo experts, ...) find
their claims are unsubstantial or clearly wrong?

A small magazine might get away with it, (why does GRM spring to mind?), but
if you are big and established you are in the full light of scrutiny by
everybody. And that means everybody.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bess, the Miata Bozo, the Miata
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas

In article >,
(Leon van Dommelen) wrote:

> >Any chance they were reviewed badly because Tirerack doesn't carry them and
> >Tirerack advertises in Car and Driver?
>
> Don't you think that Car and Driver are smart enough to realize that if they
> went in for that thing, they would quickly get a certain reputation?

Even I don't believe the test was rigged (although the absence of the
Azenis--not sold by Tire Rack--was thought provoking). What I do believe
is that the test overemphasized autocross prowess, with virtually no
notice taken of the suitability of a tire for a daily driver. Sure,
they'll say they tested factors that were easy to measure and document,
but that's a copout that doesn't serve their readership well.

Am I the only Miata driver who values ride comfort in a high-performance
tire, or its ability to handle rough and broken pavement without a
bobble? I never autocross, but I encounter real-world roads every time I
drive. Maximum grip is actually pretty far down the list of attributes
that make a good street tire. The Toyo offers many Miata owners a very
good balance of grip, breakaway behavior, suppleness, light weight,
rainworthiness, noise, comfort, wear, and price. No tire is ideal for
everyone, but considering how close the results were in this autocross
test, most of us can afford to look beyond sheer grip when choosing
street tires for Miatas.

Reality check time--how many of the tires that ranked higher than the
T1R are even available in 14" and 15" sizes appropriate for Miatas?

--
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

Lanny Chambers wrote:

> Am I the only Miata driver who values ride comfort in a high-performance
> tire, or its ability to handle rough and broken pavement without a
> bobble? I never autocross, but I encounter real-world roads every time I
> drive. Maximum grip is actually pretty far down the list of attributes
> that make a good street tire. The Toyo offers many Miata owners a very
> good balance of grip, breakaway behavior, suppleness, light weight,
> rainworthiness, noise, comfort, wear, and price. No tire is ideal for
> everyone, but considering how close the results were in this autocross
> test, most of us can afford to look beyond sheer grip when choosing
> street tires for Miatas.

Many other high-perfomance tires offer these features as well, and no,
you are not the only miata driver who values these things in a tire.

If a tire existed that gripped as well in the wet as you claim the Toyo
does and was still that good in the dry, I would never put anything else
on the car.
My personal experience with the T1-S is the same as tooloud, not that
impressive a tire in the wet, despite some ridiculous claims to the
contrary on your part.
Since these claims have been proven false by our own experiences with
the T1-S in the past, we are not believing them now either with the T1-R.
I know, you probably don't care if we believe you, but we don't. Your
miata advice is generally great, but your tire advice is dangerous if
taken seriously.

> Reality check time--how many of the tires that ranked higher than the
> T1R are even available in 14" and 15" sizes appropriate for Miatas?

A reality check needs to be done on the rainworthiness claims that you
have made on this tire, the Toyo T1-S, and the RE-71 before that.

I have 16 inch wheels that weigh less than the 14 inch alloy wheels that
came on 1994-1997 miatas.
My tire choices are adequate. The same goes for anyone else who has
changed their wheels or has bought a newer miata.

Pat

"Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> (Leon van Dommelen) wrote:
>
>> >Any chance they were reviewed badly because Tirerack doesn't carry them
>> >and
>> >Tirerack advertises in Car and Driver?
>>
>> Don't you think that Car and Driver are smart enough to realize that if
>> they
>> went in for that thing, they would quickly get a certain reputation?
>
> Even I don't believe the test was rigged (although the absence of the
> Azenis--not sold by Tire Rack--was thought provoking). What I do believe
> is that the test overemphasized autocross prowess, with virtually no
> notice taken of the suitability of a tire for a daily driver. Sure,
> they'll say they tested factors that were easy to measure and document,
> but that's a copout that doesn't serve their readership well.
>
> Am I the only Miata driver who values ride comfort in a high-performance
> tire, or its ability to handle rough and broken pavement without a
> bobble? I never autocross, but I encounter real-world roads every time I
> drive. Maximum grip is actually pretty far down the list of attributes
> that make a good street tire. The Toyo offers many Miata owners a very
> good balance of grip, breakaway behavior, suppleness, light weight,
> rainworthiness, noise, comfort, wear, and price. No tire is ideal for
> everyone, but considering how close the results were in this autocross
> test, most of us can afford to look beyond sheer grip when choosing
> street tires for Miatas.
>
> Reality check time--how many of the tires that ranked higher than the
> T1R are even available in 14" and 15" sizes appropriate for Miatas?
>
> --

Whatever the answer to this question, it's even worse if you limit it to 14"
:-)

pws > wrote in
:

> Lanny Chambers wrote:
>
>> Reality check time--how many of the tires that ranked higher than the
>> T1R are even available in 14" and 15" sizes appropriate for Miatas?
>
> I have 16 inch wheels that weigh less than the 14 inch alloy wheels
> that came on 1994-1997 miatas.
> My tire choices are adequate. The same goes for anyone else who has
> changed their wheels or has bought a newer miata.
>
> Pat

As the OP, with my stock 1994 14" alloys, I obviously have to appreciate
the reality check portion of the discussion..

-Scott

(Leon van Dommelen) wrote in
:

> "tooloud" > wrote:
>
>>but don't get caught casually mentioning that the Honda S2000 is a
>>pretty good car, too.
>
> Why not? It is frequently mentioned here and generally agreed with
> that it is a very good car. I just do not like its plastic toy car
> looks and before I call something a convertible, I want the doors to
> stop towering before they reach my ears. If I had found the looks
> of the S-2000 anywhere near acceptable, I would have been driving
> one for years, no question about it. I have been needing a more
> reliable backup for Bozo a long time.
>
> Leon

I took a trip w/ some friends to the Chicago autoshow this year.. sat in
most of the 2-seater convertables there. Almost all of them had the
"ear-level" doors. Why? I hope it's for added safety, but even for
that, it's not good. My door is the perfect arm-rest. If I have the
window down, my elbow's on the door at least 75% of the time. The Honda
and the new Pontiyak Solstice both were uncomfortable in this position.

-Scott

"tooloud" > wrote in
news:P9zXf.74189$oL.59353@attbi_s71:

> Lanny Chambers wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Scott Hughes > wrote:
>>
>>> Also, have you had the T1Rs out in the rain yet?
>>
>> Oh, yes. They stick better than all-seasons in the dry.
>
> In any case, if you're happy with the wet performance of the Toyos,
> that's great, but don't claim that they handle wet roads better than a
> "regular" all-season tire handles dry pavement; someone might actually
> believe it. I mean, when you really consider the situation, are you
> really comfortable saying that you'd be faster through a wet autocross
> with the T1-Rs than an identical car and driver would be through a
> completely dry course with all-seasons?

Well, I don't know about the Toyos yet, but I did the Mazda Rev-It-Up
event a couple years ago when the were racing the Mazda 3. It rained the
day we were there and the tires they had (I'm thinking Kumho, not sure
tho) were amazing. I would say that, yes, you could run a better laptime
w/ those in the rain than your basic high-mileage all-seasons in the dry.
So I wouldn't automatically dismiss Lanny's opinion as crazy "magic-
tire" claims.

-Scott

Leon van Dommelen wrote:

> Car and Driver did not seem that impressed with the Toyo T1R.
>
> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y_f1_gs_d3.jsp
>
> Leon

Thanks for the link. I haven't read the article yet, but unfortunately, I
think the Toyos and the Hankooks are the only tires in that whole list that
come in 14". There's also the Falken Azenis RT-615 available in 14".
(pic he http://www.discounttiredirect.com/di...eDetail.do?pc=
18500 )
They dont' look like they'd do so well in heavy rain as the Toyos (to my
untrained eye), anyone used these?

-Scott