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  #11  
Old May 29th 04, 11:30 PM
Steve Grauman
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>you do realize that a W-12 will never be as smooth as a V-12

That's yet another ridiculous claim. What evidence do you have of this?
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  #12  
Old May 31st 04, 11:14 PM
Mike Smith
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Tha Ghee wrote:

> "Steve Grauman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>the A8 has or will very soon have a 12 cylinder engine in the US
>>>it should be clear that the poster of the "W-16" comment made an
>>>honest mistake

>>
>>However, a "W16" has been developed for the new Bugatti supercar.
>>
>>
>>>[kinda big and piggish, but nevertheless, it will have a 12 cylinder,
>>>I believe a "W" configuration, which is two VR6s together...]
>>>

>>
>>Yupp. It's essentially two 24 valve VR6s mated at the crank. VW found the
>>benefits of this engine years ago with the Corrado SLC.

>
>
> I think they should have ponied up a little money and made a true V-12.


Um, why? 12 cylinders is 12 cylinders. 6 liters is 6 liters. There is
nothing inherently "better", performance-wise, about a V-layout vs. a
W-layout, and the W has advantages in terms of package size.

--
Mike Smith

  #13  
Old June 5th 04, 08:46 PM
Tha Ghee
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"Steve Grauman" > wrote in message
...
> >I think they should have ponied up a little money and made a true V-12.

>
> You're potentially talking hundreds of millions of dollars in development
> costs.
>
> >with this config what are the true benefits??

>
> It's "footprint". The VR/W configurations make the engines narrower and

allows VW/Audi to squeeze them into places were an engine that size normally
would not fit. The 2.8 Litre VR6 fitted to the Golf/GTi/Jetta is an example
of this, as is the W8 in the Passat.

just take the V-12 from Lambo, and tune it for a luxo sedan.

I understand the width & length angle, but what are any benefits, between
some savings in development time, and small size. they seem to be a little
low on power compared to a "traditional" layout, and they seem to have a
little more harshness vibration.



  #14  
Old June 5th 04, 08:51 PM
Tha Ghee
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"Mike Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Tha Ghee wrote:
>
> > I think they should have ponied up a little money and made a true V-12.

>
> Um, why? 12 cylinders is 12 cylinders. 6 liters is 6 liters. There is
> nothing inherently "better", performance-wise, about a V-layout vs. a
> W-layout, and the W has advantages in terms of package size.
>
> --
> Mike Smith
>

no, not all engines are the same, if you drive a W-8 back to back with a V-8
the W-8 will not be as smooth, it has odd firing sequence.

no on the V-12 vs. W-12, the V-12 is second most if not smoothest engine on
the planet. when you take to buzzy VR-6s and put them at a weird angle they
need to put different dampeners on them when a V-12 wouldn't need this
appliance.

yes there are many differences in terms of performance for V-12 vs. W-12
just look at the charts.

if you look I said besides packing efficiency what are the major benefits of
a "W" engine.



  #15  
Old June 5th 04, 08:53 PM
Tha Ghee
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"Steve Grauman" > wrote in message
...
> >you do realize that a W-12 will never be as smooth as a V-12

>
> That's yet another ridiculous claim. What evidence do you have of this?


no it isn't a V-12 is in no the smoothest engine it's 1a, a W-12 can never
be as smooth, it's 2 VR-6s attached at a weird angle.



  #16  
Old June 5th 04, 11:55 PM
Toby Groves
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In article >, Tha Ghee
> writes
>no on the V-12 vs. W-12, the V-12 is second most if not smoothest engine on
>the planet.


I suspect a good straight six engine such as a BMW one would be smoother
than a V12, purely because the pistons are all moving in one plane and
can therefore cancel out each other's momentum more easily than they can
in a Vee engine.

--
Toby
  #17  
Old June 6th 04, 12:09 AM
Byron
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Tha Ghee wrote:

> <>I think they should have ponied up a little money and made a true V-12.
>
>>You're potentially talking hundreds of millions of dollars in development costs.
>>
>>
>>>with this config what are the true benefits??
>>>
>>>

>> <>It's "footprint". The VR/W configurations make the engines narrower
>> and allows VW/Audi to squeeze them into places were an engine that
>> size normally would not fit. The 2.8 Litre VR6 fitted to the
>> Golf/GTi/Jetta is an example of this, as is the W8 in the Passat.
>>
>>>just take the V-12 from Lambo, and tune it for a luxo sedan.
>>>
>>>I understand the width & length angle, but what are any benefits, between
>>>some savings in development time, and small size. they seem to be a little
>>>low on power compared to a "traditional" layout, and they seem to have a
>>>little more harshness vibration.
>>>



So, Ghee,

What is it like owning both a V-12 Lambo and a W-12 A8? I mean, you
have driven both cars - you must have, or else your opinion on vibration
and harshness would have no basis in reality. And you never have pulled
a statement from your ass before, right?
  #18  
Old June 6th 04, 12:31 AM
Byron
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Toby Groves wrote:

> In article >, Tha Ghee
> > writes
>
>> no on the V-12 vs. W-12, the V-12 is second most if not smoothest
>> engine on
>> the planet.

>
>
> I suspect a good straight six engine such as a BMW one would be
> smoother than a V12, purely because the pistons are all moving in one
> plane and can therefore cancel out each other's momentum more easily
> than they can in a Vee engine.
>

An inline 6 is the engine configuration with the fewest cylinders that
can be perfectly balanced. A V-8 can be perfectly balanced, and a V-12
can as well. If you can get an I-6 perfectly balanced, then you can
also perfectly balance 2 I-6 engines joined together in one block.

I'm not sure if a W-12 can be perfectly balanced, as it's a
configuration that is newer than my textbooks. And I think other
configurations can be as well, such as a V-16.

However, just because the configurations I listed above _can_ be
perfectly balanced, that does not always mean that every engine with
those layouts actually are.

Engine designers can use a whole bag of tricks to make engines that are
not inherently smooth feel quite good to the car owner. I-4, I-5, V-5,
V-6, I-8, V-10 can use balance shafts to quell the noise. And for
engines with a V or W configuration, designers can use the proper angle
between the cylinder banks. 60 degrees is best for a V-6 - when GM
converted it's cars from using V-8 engines (which are best balanced with
a 90 degree configuration) to 6 cylinders in the 1980s, they didn't want
to throw away the machinery that bored the cylinders out. So they made
90 degree V-6s, which were quite rough. That was one of the factors
that gave rise to the increasing market share that foreign manufacturers
now enjoy.

The VR-6 (I've owned two), with a 15 degree cylinder angle is quite a
smooth engine, because its angle is close to the zero of the I-6. It's
not perfect, but it is smoother than the Japanese I-4 I now use.
  #19  
Old June 7th 04, 05:28 AM
Steve Grauman
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>no, not all engines are the same, if you drive a W-8 back to back with a V-8
>the W-8 will not be as smooth, it has odd firing sequence.


What the hell does the engine's firing sequence have to do with smoothness?

>no on the V-12 vs. W-12, the V-12 is second most if not smoothest engine on
>the planet


What kind of B.S. generality is that? WHICH V12? The MB one? The BMW one? The
Lamborghini one?

> when you take to buzzy VR-6s and put them at a weird angle


The W12 uses the same 10 degree angle that the VR engines do.

> they
>need to put different dampeners on them when a V-12 wouldn't need this
>appliance.


I believe MB's V12 uses balance shafts, actually.

>yes there are many differences in terms of performance for V-12 vs. W-12
>just look at the charts.


Again, a generality. MB's V12 outperforms the W12 but it's fitted with Twin
Turbochargers so what do you expect?

>if you look I said besides packing efficiency what are the major benefits of
>a "W" engine.
>


It doesn't matter how you worded it, you were wrong.
  #20  
Old June 7th 04, 05:29 AM
Steve Grauman
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> when GM
>converted it's cars from using V-8 engines (which are best balanced with
>a 90 degree configuration)


Most V6s are 90 degrees, AFAIK.
 




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