Divorce Your Car --and get into a relationship with a Bike!

"bill" > wrote in message
m...
> Amy Blankenship wrote:
>> "bill" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> In article >,
>>>> bill > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>> In article .net>,
>>>>>> "george conklin" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Small farms would condemn about 75% of the current world's
>>>>>>>>> population to death. That is not a solution except for death.
>>>>>>>> I don't know if the 75% is correct but the basic idea is sound.
>>>>>> No, it's not. Where do you think 75% (actually more) of the world's
>>>>>> population gets its food now? From small farms. Large scale
>>>>>> agribusiness farming is the purview of economically developed
>>>>>> countries which feeds a fraction of the world's population regularly,
>>>>>> and which does provide emergency capacity when food production fails
>>>>>> in ecologically difficult areas due to drought, flooding, fires, etc.
>>>>>> In the latter case, large scale farming does save lives. However,
>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is not all going to suffer such
>>>>>> catastrophes at once.
>>>>> 75% of the world's population is surplus anyway. I just read where the
>>>>> United States is going to top 300 million around October 15. Compared
>>>>> to the country (this one) I grew up in that is about 150 million too
>>>>> many. We are paving over everything, quite literally. I went to visit
>>>>> the houses I grew up in, back in Illinois and all the corn fields I
>>>>> grew up playing in are now built over with housing or "Condo-fields".
>>>>> If we keep replacing corn with people we are going to be in deeper
>>>>> **** than we are now. Rolling the global population to about 1 billion
>>>>> (max) and keeping it there with some no growth thinking is about the
>>>>> only way the human race will be here in another 200 years. I think we
>>>>> are setting ourselves up far a mass plague or starvation that is going
>>>>> to thin out the population. We just plain doesn't need so many people.
>>>> I suspect that there are points of agreement that we could find, but
>>>> there are also points of disagreement. For example, your claim that
>>>> 75% of the population is "surplus." Of course, that gives you a 4:1
>>>> chance of being one of the surplus ones. ;-) I agree that there is
>>>> overpopulation not only in America but around the world as well. I
>>>> cannot bring myself to call anyone "surplus," however. They have every
>>>> bit as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as I
>>>> have.
>>> My actual solution was to ship food to them that had fertility
>>> impairment hormones in it or mandate a vasectomy or tube tie in order to
>>> qualify if people already had 2 or more children. Nobody gets hurt, but
>>> nobody gets to have 10 kids they can't feed, either.
>>
>> I think you're operating under two fundamental misconceptions:
>>
>> 1) That civilizations never reach a point where population stops
>> increasing
>> 2) That children never feed their parents
>>
>> If you look at the most developed nations, population growth through
>> reproduction is in the near-zero to negative range, depending on which
>> country you're talking about. This implies that as more and more nations
>> become industrialized, population will level off or even decline. The
>> reason we have such extreme population growth now is that we have better
>> education, health care, food production, and food distribution. So
>> mortality is down.
>
> Way off base for the US.

You are very ignorant. No native-born group reproduces itself in the USA.
Immigration causes population growth here, but they are only meeting a
demand for labor that a insufficient birth rate from native-born groups
fails to provide.

george conklin wrote:
> "bill" > wrote in message
> m...
>> Amy Blankenship wrote:
>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> In article >,
>>>>> bill > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>> In article .net>,
>>>>>>> "george conklin" > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Small farms would condemn about 75% of the current world's
>>>>>>>>>> population to death. That is not a solution except for death.
>>>>>>>>> I don't know if the 75% is correct but the basic idea is sound.
>>>>>>> No, it's not. Where do you think 75% (actually more) of the world's
>>>>>>> population gets its food now? From small farms. Large scale
>>>>>>> agribusiness farming is the purview of economically developed
>>>>>>> countries which feeds a fraction of the world's population regularly,
>>>>>>> and which does provide emergency capacity when food production fails
>>>>>>> in ecologically difficult areas due to drought, flooding, fires, etc.
>>>>>>> In the latter case, large scale farming does save lives. However,
>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is not all going to suffer such
>>>>>>> catastrophes at once.
>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is surplus anyway. I just read where the
>>>>>> United States is going to top 300 million around October 15. Compared
>>>>>> to the country (this one) I grew up in that is about 150 million too
>>>>>> many. We are paving over everything, quite literally. I went to visit
>>>>>> the houses I grew up in, back in Illinois and all the corn fields I
>>>>>> grew up playing in are now built over with housing or "Condo-fields".
>>>>>> If we keep replacing corn with people we are going to be in deeper
>>>>>> **** than we are now. Rolling the global population to about 1 billion
>>>>>> (max) and keeping it there with some no growth thinking is about the
>>>>>> only way the human race will be here in another 200 years. I think we
>>>>>> are setting ourselves up far a mass plague or starvation that is going
>>>>>> to thin out the population. We just plain doesn't need so many people.
>>>>> I suspect that there are points of agreement that we could find, but
>>>>> there are also points of disagreement. For example, your claim that
>>>>> 75% of the population is "surplus." Of course, that gives you a 4:1
>>>>> chance of being one of the surplus ones. ;-) I agree that there is
>>>>> overpopulation not only in America but around the world as well. I
>>>>> cannot bring myself to call anyone "surplus," however. They have every
>>>>> bit as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as I
>>>>> have.
>>>> My actual solution was to ship food to them that had fertility
>>>> impairment hormones in it or mandate a vasectomy or tube tie in order to
>>>> qualify if people already had 2 or more children. Nobody gets hurt, but
>>>> nobody gets to have 10 kids they can't feed, either.
>>> I think you're operating under two fundamental misconceptions:
>>>
>>> 1) That civilizations never reach a point where population stops
>>> increasing
>>> 2) That children never feed their parents
>>>
>>> If you look at the most developed nations, population growth through
>>> reproduction is in the near-zero to negative range, depending on which
>>> country you're talking about. This implies that as more and more nations
>>> become industrialized, population will level off or even decline. The
>>> reason we have such extreme population growth now is that we have better
>>> education, health care, food production, and food distribution. So
>>> mortality is down.
>> Way off base for the US.
>
> You are very ignorant. No native-born group reproduces itself in the USA.
> Immigration causes population growth here, but they are only meeting a
> demand for labor that a insufficient birth rate from native-born groups
> fails to provide.
>
>
Hah,
I do have 2 cents to add to this one. I went into a Taco Bell not too
long ago and couldn't order what I wanted without a whole lot of sign
language. It seems they were so busy hiring Mexicans who didn't speak
English they forgot to hire one to take the orders from the main
clientèle, which just happened to be whiteys, like me. Some people got
frustrated and walked out but I hung in there and got my 2 Green bean
burritos, the only thing I ever order there. It felt like forever trying
to get them to understand even something that simple.
Yeah, we really need them.
Bill Baka

"Lorenzo L. Love" > wrote in message
newsp.tg4z9tigpheghf@ibm22761843607...
> On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:15:58 -0700, Amy Blankenship
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> "bill" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>> Amy Blankenship wrote:
>>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>> bill > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article .net>,
>>>>>>>> "george conklin" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Small farms would condemn about 75% of the current world's
>>>>>>>>>>> population to death. That is not a solution except for death.
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if the 75% is correct but the basic idea is sound.
>>>>>>>> No, it's not. Where do you think 75% (actually more) of the
>>>>>>>> world's
>>>>>>>> population gets its food now? From small farms. Large scale
>>>>>>>> agribusiness farming is the purview of economically developed
>>>>>>>> countries which feeds a fraction of the world's population
>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>> and which does provide emergency capacity when food production
>>>>>>>> fails
>>>>>>>> in ecologically difficult areas due to drought, flooding, fires,
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> In the latter case, large scale farming does save lives. However,
>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is not all going to suffer such
>>>>>>>> catastrophes at once.
>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is surplus anyway. I just read where
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> United States is going to top 300 million around October 15.
>>>>>>> Compared
>>>>>>> to the country (this one) I grew up in that is about 150 million too
>>>>>>> many. We are paving over everything, quite literally. I went to
>>>>>>> visit
>>>>>>> the houses I grew up in, back in Illinois and all the corn fields I
>>>>>>> grew up playing in are now built over with housing or
>>>>>>> "Condo-fields".
>>>>>>> If we keep replacing corn with people we are going to be in deeper
>>>>>>> **** than we are now. Rolling the global population to about 1
>>>>>>> billion
>>>>>>> (max) and keeping it there with some no growth thinking is about the
>>>>>>> only way the human race will be here in another 200 years. I think
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> are setting ourselves up far a mass plague or starvation that is
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>> to thin out the population. We just plain doesn't need so many
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>> I suspect that there are points of agreement that we could find, but
>>>>>> there are also points of disagreement. For example, your claim that
>>>>>> 75% of the population is "surplus." Of course, that gives you a 4:1
>>>>>> chance of being one of the surplus ones. ;-) I agree that there is
>>>>>> overpopulation not only in America but around the world as well. I
>>>>>> cannot bring myself to call anyone "surplus," however. They have
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> bit as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as I
>>>>>> have.
>>>>> My actual solution was to ship food to them that had fertility
>>>>> impairment hormones in it or mandate a vasectomy or tube tie in order
>>>>> to
>>>>> qualify if people already had 2 or more children. Nobody gets hurt,
>>>>> but
>>>>> nobody gets to have 10 kids they can't feed, either.
>>>>
>>>> I think you're operating under two fundamental misconceptions:
>>>>
>>>> 1) That civilizations never reach a point where population stops
>>>> increasing
>>>> 2) That children never feed their parents
>>>>
>>>> If you look at the most developed nations, population growth through
>>>> reproduction is in the near-zero to negative range, depending on which
>>>> country you're talking about. This implies that as more and more
>>>> nations
>>>> become industrialized, population will level off or even decline. The
>>>> reason we have such extreme population growth now is that we have
>>>> better
>>>> education, health care, food production, and food distribution. So
>>>> mortality is down.
>>>
>>> Way off base for the US. We get one pregnant Mexican having a baby here
>>> and the whole illegal family stays, so that one 'Citizen' gives a whole
>>> pre-existing family the right to stay here. Mortality due to disease is
>>> down from what it used to be, but then people in non-developed countries
>>> just have more children who then starve and of course, we send them
>>> food.
>>> Us Natural born Americans don't have that many children because we are
>>> too
>>> busy working to survive the high cost of living to support all the
>>> immigrants who we have to support through social programs. China and
>>> India
>>> are both over 1 Billion and will keep going as long as we keep bleeding
>>> money to them, which will eventually make us the "EX" superpower.
>>
>> First, you're talking about population growth in the US through
>> immigration
>> vs reproduction, which is exactly what I said.
>>
>> China and India are growing, but their populations are stabilizing as
>> they
>> need to educate themselves more to be able to fill the tech jobs that are
>> being outsourced there.
>>
>>>> Now let's look at the second premise. In the developing world,
>>>> children
>>>> are often valuable hands to produce food and/or the means to get food.
>>>> So in that sense, developing nations can't afford "pet children" who
>>>> are
>>>> not expected to return any value to the family in the way we do in the
>>>> US. So people in developing nations tend to reproduce more because
>>>> they
>>>> need the additional hands and because of higher infant and child
>>>> mortality rates.
>>>
>>> You don't read much, do you? The reason they try to reproduce so much is
>>> that there is a high rate of infant death caused by the birth of a new
>>> child. Once there is a new baby to breast feed the next older one is
>>> expected to survive on adult food and often dies from malnutrition.
>>> Our answer to this? Throw money at them or "Adopt" a child in a far away
>>> land, thus making it our problem.
>>
>> You don't read *well* do you? I did way they reproduce more in part
>> because
>> of higher infant and child mortality.
>>
>>>> Small amounts of education, especially for female children, greatly
>>>> reduces mortality among infants and children, so population will
>>>> initially spike as education becomes available.
>>>
>>> Uh-huh!
>>>>
>>>> But this makes the benefits of education tangible, so developng peoples
>>>> slowly spend more and more time in school in order to reap more
>>>> benefits
>>>> of education. This extends the childhood years, and people begin to
>>>> reproduce less. In addition, since the children are spending all their
>>>> time learning, they are not an asset to the household, but a drain on
>>>> it
>>>> until they become productive in their teens or twenties. At which time
>>>> they are themselves ready to reproduce, so they split off into their
>>>> own
>>>> households *and never return any value to the parent household.*
>>>>
>>>> And this is exactly why as nations develop, population levels off. So
>>>> if
>>>> we really want to control population we need to educate, educate,
>>>> educate.
>>>>
>>> You really do believe the view through your rose colored glasses, don't
>>> you.
>>
>> I just call it the way I see it. Do you really think that the fact that
>> people in developed nations don't even reproduce enough to sustain their
>> own
>> numbers isn't a natural result of the way nations come to be developed?
>>
>>
>
> Developed nations like the U.S., Australia, France or the United Kingdom?
> All have positive population growth rates. Even Japan which is often cited
> as an example of a stable population has a positive population growth
> rate. The few Western nations that have negative growth rates are mostly
> former Soviet Block nations which have low life expectancy due to a
> variety of reasons. That includes Germany which has inherited Soviet Block
> East Germany. Check your facts.

Check YOUR facts. How much is due to reproduction, how much to immigration?

"Amy Blankenship" > wrote in message
.. .

> I just call it the way I see it. Do you really think that the fact that
> people in developed nations don't even reproduce enough to sustain their
> own numbers isn't a natural result of the way nations come to be
> developed?

The reproductions rate don't seem to be hurting either China or India as
they speed toward even more development.

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:14:11 -0700, Amy Blankenship
> wrote:

>
> "Lorenzo L. Love" > wrote in message
> newsp.tg4z9tigpheghf@ibm22761843607...
>> On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:15:58 -0700, Amy Blankenship
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>> m...
>>>> Amy Blankenship wrote:
>>>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>> bill > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>> .net>,
>>>>>>>>> "george conklin" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Small farms would condemn about 75% of the current world's
>>>>>>>>>>>> population to death. That is not a solution except for death.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if the 75% is correct but the basic idea is sound.
>>>>>>>>> No, it's not. Where do you think 75% (actually more) of the
>>>>>>>>> world's
>>>>>>>>> population gets its food now? From small farms. Large scale
>>>>>>>>> agribusiness farming is the purview of economically developed
>>>>>>>>> countries which feeds a fraction of the world's population
>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>> and which does provide emergency capacity when food production
>>>>>>>>> fails
>>>>>>>>> in ecologically difficult areas due to drought, flooding, fires,
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>> In the latter case, large scale farming does save lives.
>>>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is not all going to suffer such
>>>>>>>>> catastrophes at once.
>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is surplus anyway. I just read where
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> United States is going to top 300 million around October 15.
>>>>>>>> Compared
>>>>>>>> to the country (this one) I grew up in that is about 150 million
>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>> many. We are paving over everything, quite literally. I went to
>>>>>>>> visit
>>>>>>>> the houses I grew up in, back in Illinois and all the corn fields
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> grew up playing in are now built over with housing or
>>>>>>>> "Condo-fields".
>>>>>>>> If we keep replacing corn with people we are going to be in deeper
>>>>>>>> **** than we are now. Rolling the global population to about 1
>>>>>>>> billion
>>>>>>>> (max) and keeping it there with some no growth thinking is about
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> only way the human race will be here in another 200 years. I think
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> are setting ourselves up far a mass plague or starvation that is
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>> to thin out the population. We just plain doesn't need so many
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>> I suspect that there are points of agreement that we could find,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> there are also points of disagreement. For example, your claim
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> 75% of the population is "surplus." Of course, that gives you a
>>>>>>> 4:1
>>>>>>> chance of being one of the surplus ones. ;-) I agree that there
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> overpopulation not only in America but around the world as well. I
>>>>>>> cannot bring myself to call anyone "surplus," however. They have
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> bit as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> have.
>>>>>> My actual solution was to ship food to them that had fertility
>>>>>> impairment hormones in it or mandate a vasectomy or tube tie in
>>>>>> order
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> qualify if people already had 2 or more children. Nobody gets hurt,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> nobody gets to have 10 kids they can't feed, either.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you're operating under two fundamental misconceptions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) That civilizations never reach a point where population stops
>>>>> increasing
>>>>> 2) That children never feed their parents
>>>>>
>>>>> If you look at the most developed nations, population growth through
>>>>> reproduction is in the near-zero to negative range, depending on
>>>>> which
>>>>> country you're talking about. This implies that as more and more
>>>>> nations
>>>>> become industrialized, population will level off or even decline.
>>>>> The
>>>>> reason we have such extreme population growth now is that we have
>>>>> better
>>>>> education, health care, food production, and food distribution. So
>>>>> mortality is down.
>>>>
>>>> Way off base for the US. We get one pregnant Mexican having a baby
>>>> here
>>>> and the whole illegal family stays, so that one 'Citizen' gives a
>>>> whole
>>>> pre-existing family the right to stay here. Mortality due to disease
>>>> is
>>>> down from what it used to be, but then people in non-developed
>>>> countries
>>>> just have more children who then starve and of course, we send them
>>>> food.
>>>> Us Natural born Americans don't have that many children because we are
>>>> too
>>>> busy working to survive the high cost of living to support all the
>>>> immigrants who we have to support through social programs. China and
>>>> India
>>>> are both over 1 Billion and will keep going as long as we keep
>>>> bleeding
>>>> money to them, which will eventually make us the "EX" superpower.
>>>
>>> First, you're talking about population growth in the US through
>>> immigration
>>> vs reproduction, which is exactly what I said.
>>>
>>> China and India are growing, but their populations are stabilizing as
>>> they
>>> need to educate themselves more to be able to fill the tech jobs that
>>> are
>>> being outsourced there.
>>>
>>>>> Now let's look at the second premise. In the developing world,
>>>>> children
>>>>> are often valuable hands to produce food and/or the means to get
>>>>> food.
>>>>> So in that sense, developing nations can't afford "pet children" who
>>>>> are
>>>>> not expected to return any value to the family in the way we do in
>>>>> the
>>>>> US. So people in developing nations tend to reproduce more because
>>>>> they
>>>>> need the additional hands and because of higher infant and child
>>>>> mortality rates.
>>>>
>>>> You don't read much, do you? The reason they try to reproduce so much
>>>> is
>>>> that there is a high rate of infant death caused by the birth of a new
>>>> child. Once there is a new baby to breast feed the next older one is
>>>> expected to survive on adult food and often dies from malnutrition.
>>>> Our answer to this? Throw money at them or "Adopt" a child in a far
>>>> away
>>>> land, thus making it our problem.
>>>
>>> You don't read *well* do you? I did way they reproduce more in part
>>> because
>>> of higher infant and child mortality.
>>>
>>>>> Small amounts of education, especially for female children, greatly
>>>>> reduces mortality among infants and children, so population will
>>>>> initially spike as education becomes available.
>>>>
>>>> Uh-huh!
>>>>>
>>>>> But this makes the benefits of education tangible, so developng
>>>>> peoples
>>>>> slowly spend more and more time in school in order to reap more
>>>>> benefits
>>>>> of education. This extends the childhood years, and people begin to
>>>>> reproduce less. In addition, since the children are spending all
>>>>> their
>>>>> time learning, they are not an asset to the household, but a drain on
>>>>> it
>>>>> until they become productive in their teens or twenties. At which
>>>>> time
>>>>> they are themselves ready to reproduce, so they split off into their
>>>>> own
>>>>> households *and never return any value to the parent household.*
>>>>>
>>>>> And this is exactly why as nations develop, population levels off.
>>>>> So
>>>>> if
>>>>> we really want to control population we need to educate, educate,
>>>>> educate.
>>>>>
>>>> You really do believe the view through your rose colored glasses,
>>>> don't
>>>> you.
>>>
>>> I just call it the way I see it. Do you really think that the fact
>>> that
>>> people in developed nations don't even reproduce enough to sustain
>>> their
>>> own
>>> numbers isn't a natural result of the way nations come to be developed?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Developed nations like the U.S., Australia, France or the United
>> Kingdom?
>> All have positive population growth rates. Even Japan which is often
>> cited
>> as an example of a stable population has a positive population growth
>> rate. The few Western nations that have negative growth rates are mostly
>> former Soviet Block nations which have low life expectancy due to a
>> variety of reasons. That includes Germany which has inherited Soviet
>> Block
>> East Germany. Check your facts.
>
> Check YOUR facts. How much is due to reproduction, how much to
> immigration?
>
>

The U.S. has a birth rate of 14.14 births/1,000 population vs a death rate
of 8.26 deaths/1,000 population. People born in the U.S., not immigration.
Similarly the other developed nations cited have simplely more people
being born in them then dying in them. This info is readily available if
you would bother to look and not blindly repeat anti-immigrant propaganda.
Can you cite a few non former Soviet Block developed nations that have
more deaths then births?

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"We must alert and organise the world's people to pressure world leaders
to take specific steps to solve the two root causes of our environmental
crises - exploding population growth and wasteful consumption of
irreplaceable resources. Overconsumption and overpopulation underlie every
environmental problem we face today."
Jacques-Yves Cousteau

"Lorenzo L. Love" > wrote in message
newsp.tg6g5gw7pheghf@ibm22761843607...
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:14:11 -0700, Amy Blankenship
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Lorenzo L. Love" > wrote in message
>> newsp.tg4z9tigpheghf@ibm22761843607...
>>> On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:15:58 -0700, Amy Blankenship
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>>> m...
>>>>> Amy Blankenship wrote:
>>>>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>> bill > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>> .net>,
>>>>>>>>>> "george conklin" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Small farms would condemn about 75% of the current world's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> population to death. That is not a solution except for death.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if the 75% is correct but the basic idea is sound.
>>>>>>>>>> No, it's not. Where do you think 75% (actually more) of the
>>>>>>>>>> world's
>>>>>>>>>> population gets its food now? From small farms. Large scale
>>>>>>>>>> agribusiness farming is the purview of economically developed
>>>>>>>>>> countries which feeds a fraction of the world's population
>>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>>> and which does provide emergency capacity when food production
>>>>>>>>>> fails
>>>>>>>>>> in ecologically difficult areas due to drought, flooding, fires,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>> In the latter case, large scale farming does save lives.
>>>>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is not all going to suffer such
>>>>>>>>>> catastrophes at once.
>>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is surplus anyway. I just read where
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> United States is going to top 300 million around October 15.
>>>>>>>>> Compared
>>>>>>>>> to the country (this one) I grew up in that is about 150 million
>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>> many. We are paving over everything, quite literally. I went to
>>>>>>>>> visit
>>>>>>>>> the houses I grew up in, back in Illinois and all the corn fields
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> grew up playing in are now built over with housing or
>>>>>>>>> "Condo-fields".
>>>>>>>>> If we keep replacing corn with people we are going to be in deeper
>>>>>>>>> **** than we are now. Rolling the global population to about 1
>>>>>>>>> billion
>>>>>>>>> (max) and keeping it there with some no growth thinking is about
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> only way the human race will be here in another 200 years. I think
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> are setting ourselves up far a mass plague or starvation that is
>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>> to thin out the population. We just plain doesn't need so many
>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>> I suspect that there are points of agreement that we could find,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> there are also points of disagreement. For example, your claim
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> 75% of the population is "surplus." Of course, that gives you a
>>>>>>>> 4:1
>>>>>>>> chance of being one of the surplus ones. ;-) I agree that there
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> overpopulation not only in America but around the world as well. I
>>>>>>>> cannot bring myself to call anyone "surplus," however. They have
>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>> bit as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> have.
>>>>>>> My actual solution was to ship food to them that had fertility
>>>>>>> impairment hormones in it or mandate a vasectomy or tube tie in
>>>>>>> order
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> qualify if people already had 2 or more children. Nobody gets hurt,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> nobody gets to have 10 kids they can't feed, either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you're operating under two fundamental misconceptions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) That civilizations never reach a point where population stops
>>>>>> increasing
>>>>>> 2) That children never feed their parents
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you look at the most developed nations, population growth through
>>>>>> reproduction is in the near-zero to negative range, depending on
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> country you're talking about. This implies that as more and more
>>>>>> nations
>>>>>> become industrialized, population will level off or even decline.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> reason we have such extreme population growth now is that we have
>>>>>> better
>>>>>> education, health care, food production, and food distribution. So
>>>>>> mortality is down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Way off base for the US. We get one pregnant Mexican having a baby
>>>>> here
>>>>> and the whole illegal family stays, so that one 'Citizen' gives a
>>>>> whole
>>>>> pre-existing family the right to stay here. Mortality due to disease
>>>>> is
>>>>> down from what it used to be, but then people in non-developed
>>>>> countries
>>>>> just have more children who then starve and of course, we send them
>>>>> food.
>>>>> Us Natural born Americans don't have that many children because we are
>>>>> too
>>>>> busy working to survive the high cost of living to support all the
>>>>> immigrants who we have to support through social programs. China and
>>>>> India
>>>>> are both over 1 Billion and will keep going as long as we keep
>>>>> bleeding
>>>>> money to them, which will eventually make us the "EX" superpower.
>>>>
>>>> First, you're talking about population growth in the US through
>>>> immigration
>>>> vs reproduction, which is exactly what I said.
>>>>
>>>> China and India are growing, but their populations are stabilizing as
>>>> they
>>>> need to educate themselves more to be able to fill the tech jobs that
>>>> are
>>>> being outsourced there.
>>>>
>>>>>> Now let's look at the second premise. In the developing world,
>>>>>> children
>>>>>> are often valuable hands to produce food and/or the means to get
>>>>>> food.
>>>>>> So in that sense, developing nations can't afford "pet children" who
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> not expected to return any value to the family in the way we do in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> US. So people in developing nations tend to reproduce more because
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> need the additional hands and because of higher infant and child
>>>>>> mortality rates.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't read much, do you? The reason they try to reproduce so much
>>>>> is
>>>>> that there is a high rate of infant death caused by the birth of a new
>>>>> child. Once there is a new baby to breast feed the next older one is
>>>>> expected to survive on adult food and often dies from malnutrition.
>>>>> Our answer to this? Throw money at them or "Adopt" a child in a far
>>>>> away
>>>>> land, thus making it our problem.
>>>>
>>>> You don't read *well* do you? I did way they reproduce more in part
>>>> because
>>>> of higher infant and child mortality.
>>>>
>>>>>> Small amounts of education, especially for female children, greatly
>>>>>> reduces mortality among infants and children, so population will
>>>>>> initially spike as education becomes available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh-huh!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But this makes the benefits of education tangible, so developng
>>>>>> peoples
>>>>>> slowly spend more and more time in school in order to reap more
>>>>>> benefits
>>>>>> of education. This extends the childhood years, and people begin to
>>>>>> reproduce less. In addition, since the children are spending all
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> time learning, they are not an asset to the household, but a drain on
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> until they become productive in their teens or twenties. At which
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> they are themselves ready to reproduce, so they split off into their
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> households *and never return any value to the parent household.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And this is exactly why as nations develop, population levels off.
>>>>>> So
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> we really want to control population we need to educate, educate,
>>>>>> educate.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You really do believe the view through your rose colored glasses,
>>>>> don't
>>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> I just call it the way I see it. Do you really think that the fact
>>>> that
>>>> people in developed nations don't even reproduce enough to sustain
>>>> their
>>>> own
>>>> numbers isn't a natural result of the way nations come to be developed?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Developed nations like the U.S., Australia, France or the United
>>> Kingdom?
>>> All have positive population growth rates. Even Japan which is often
>>> cited
>>> as an example of a stable population has a positive population growth
>>> rate. The few Western nations that have negative growth rates are mostly
>>> former Soviet Block nations which have low life expectancy due to a
>>> variety of reasons. That includes Germany which has inherited Soviet
>>> Block
>>> East Germany. Check your facts.
>>
>> Check YOUR facts. How much is due to reproduction, how much to
>> immigration?
>>
>>
>
> The U.S. has a birth rate of 14.14 births/1,000 population vs a death rate
> of 8.26 deaths/1,000 population. People born in the U.S., not immigration.
> Similarly the other developed nations cited have simplely more people
> being born in them then dying in them. This info is readily available if
> you would bother to look and not blindly repeat anti-immigrant propaganda.
> Can you cite a few non former Soviet Block developed nations that have
> more deaths then births?

First, saying that population in industrialized nations is due more to
immigration than to reproduction is neither for or anti immigration. It's
just a statement with no value judgments. I happen to be married to an
immigrant and we've discussed immigrating somewhere else ourselves later in
life.

Second, according to wikipedia, "In industrialized countries with low child
mortality, sub-replacement fertility is below approximately 2.1 children per
woman's life time. 2.1 children per woman includes 2 children to replace the
parents, with one-tenth of a child extra to make up for the mortality of
children who do not reach the age of 15, which is the defined age when the
fertility rate is calculated."
.....
"While almost all of the developed world, and many other nations, have seen
plummeting fertility rates over the last twenty-years, the United States'
rates have remained stable and even slightly increased. Note however that
some European countries have gradually increasing fertility rates, most
notably France, whose fertility rate increased to 1.85 in 2005. Nevertheless
even France remains below the 2.09 children/woman fertility rate of the US."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility

The difference is that you're looking at the balance of births and deaths
*today*, where a lot of different factors come into play like a large group
of people born in the 40's and 50's that happen to be healthy and aging.
Replacement population looks at how many children a couple will actually
produce over the course of their lifetime with the logical expectation that
they both will die at some point. So that ultimately to permanently replace
themselves they have to each produce at least one child. If somehow
previous generations were to become immortal we'd need to look at
replacement population differently.

Hope this clarifies;

Amy

"Amy Blankenship" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Lorenzo L. Love" > wrote in message
> newsp.tg4z9tigpheghf@ibm22761843607...
>> On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:15:58 -0700, Amy Blankenship
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>> m...
>>>> Amy Blankenship wrote:
>>>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>> bill > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>> .net>,
>>>>>>>>> "george conklin" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Small farms would condemn about 75% of the current world's
>>>>>>>>>>>> population to death. That is not a solution except for death.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if the 75% is correct but the basic idea is sound.
>>>>>>>>> No, it's not. Where do you think 75% (actually more) of the
>>>>>>>>> world's
>>>>>>>>> population gets its food now? From small farms. Large scale
>>>>>>>>> agribusiness farming is the purview of economically developed
>>>>>>>>> countries which feeds a fraction of the world's population
>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>> and which does provide emergency capacity when food production
>>>>>>>>> fails
>>>>>>>>> in ecologically difficult areas due to drought, flooding, fires,
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>> In the latter case, large scale farming does save lives. However,
>>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is not all going to suffer such
>>>>>>>>> catastrophes at once.
>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is surplus anyway. I just read where
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> United States is going to top 300 million around October 15.
>>>>>>>> Compared
>>>>>>>> to the country (this one) I grew up in that is about 150 million
>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>> many. We are paving over everything, quite literally. I went to
>>>>>>>> visit
>>>>>>>> the houses I grew up in, back in Illinois and all the corn fields I
>>>>>>>> grew up playing in are now built over with housing or
>>>>>>>> "Condo-fields".
>>>>>>>> If we keep replacing corn with people we are going to be in deeper
>>>>>>>> **** than we are now. Rolling the global population to about 1
>>>>>>>> billion
>>>>>>>> (max) and keeping it there with some no growth thinking is about
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> only way the human race will be here in another 200 years. I think
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> are setting ourselves up far a mass plague or starvation that is
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>> to thin out the population. We just plain doesn't need so many
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>> I suspect that there are points of agreement that we could find, but
>>>>>>> there are also points of disagreement. For example, your claim that
>>>>>>> 75% of the population is "surplus." Of course, that gives you a 4:1
>>>>>>> chance of being one of the surplus ones. ;-) I agree that there is
>>>>>>> overpopulation not only in America but around the world as well. I
>>>>>>> cannot bring myself to call anyone "surplus," however. They have
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> bit as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as I
>>>>>>> have.
>>>>>> My actual solution was to ship food to them that had fertility
>>>>>> impairment hormones in it or mandate a vasectomy or tube tie in order
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> qualify if people already had 2 or more children. Nobody gets hurt,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> nobody gets to have 10 kids they can't feed, either.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you're operating under two fundamental misconceptions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) That civilizations never reach a point where population stops
>>>>> increasing
>>>>> 2) That children never feed their parents
>>>>>
>>>>> If you look at the most developed nations, population growth through
>>>>> reproduction is in the near-zero to negative range, depending on which
>>>>> country you're talking about. This implies that as more and more
>>>>> nations
>>>>> become industrialized, population will level off or even decline. The
>>>>> reason we have such extreme population growth now is that we have
>>>>> better
>>>>> education, health care, food production, and food distribution. So
>>>>> mortality is down.
>>>>
>>>> Way off base for the US. We get one pregnant Mexican having a baby here
>>>> and the whole illegal family stays, so that one 'Citizen' gives a whole
>>>> pre-existing family the right to stay here. Mortality due to disease is
>>>> down from what it used to be, but then people in non-developed
>>>> countries
>>>> just have more children who then starve and of course, we send them
>>>> food.
>>>> Us Natural born Americans don't have that many children because we are
>>>> too
>>>> busy working to survive the high cost of living to support all the
>>>> immigrants who we have to support through social programs. China and
>>>> India
>>>> are both over 1 Billion and will keep going as long as we keep bleeding
>>>> money to them, which will eventually make us the "EX" superpower.
>>>
>>> First, you're talking about population growth in the US through
>>> immigration
>>> vs reproduction, which is exactly what I said.
>>>
>>> China and India are growing, but their populations are stabilizing as
>>> they
>>> need to educate themselves more to be able to fill the tech jobs that
>>> are
>>> being outsourced there.
>>>
>>>>> Now let's look at the second premise. In the developing world,
>>>>> children
>>>>> are often valuable hands to produce food and/or the means to get food.
>>>>> So in that sense, developing nations can't afford "pet children" who
>>>>> are
>>>>> not expected to return any value to the family in the way we do in the
>>>>> US. So people in developing nations tend to reproduce more because
>>>>> they
>>>>> need the additional hands and because of higher infant and child
>>>>> mortality rates.
>>>>
>>>> You don't read much, do you? The reason they try to reproduce so much
>>>> is
>>>> that there is a high rate of infant death caused by the birth of a new
>>>> child. Once there is a new baby to breast feed the next older one is
>>>> expected to survive on adult food and often dies from malnutrition.
>>>> Our answer to this? Throw money at them or "Adopt" a child in a far
>>>> away
>>>> land, thus making it our problem.
>>>
>>> You don't read *well* do you? I did way they reproduce more in part
>>> because
>>> of higher infant and child mortality.
>>>
>>>>> Small amounts of education, especially for female children, greatly
>>>>> reduces mortality among infants and children, so population will
>>>>> initially spike as education becomes available.
>>>>
>>>> Uh-huh!
>>>>>
>>>>> But this makes the benefits of education tangible, so developng
>>>>> peoples
>>>>> slowly spend more and more time in school in order to reap more
>>>>> benefits
>>>>> of education. This extends the childhood years, and people begin to
>>>>> reproduce less. In addition, since the children are spending all
>>>>> their
>>>>> time learning, they are not an asset to the household, but a drain on
>>>>> it
>>>>> until they become productive in their teens or twenties. At which
>>>>> time
>>>>> they are themselves ready to reproduce, so they split off into their
>>>>> own
>>>>> households *and never return any value to the parent household.*
>>>>>
>>>>> And this is exactly why as nations develop, population levels off. So
>>>>> if
>>>>> we really want to control population we need to educate, educate,
>>>>> educate.
>>>>>
>>>> You really do believe the view through your rose colored glasses, don't
>>>> you.
>>>
>>> I just call it the way I see it. Do you really think that the fact that
>>> people in developed nations don't even reproduce enough to sustain their
>>> own
>>> numbers isn't a natural result of the way nations come to be developed?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Developed nations like the U.S., Australia, France or the United Kingdom?
>> All have positive population growth rates. Even Japan which is often
>> cited as an example of a stable population has a positive population
>> growth rate. The few Western nations that have negative growth rates are
>> mostly former Soviet Block nations which have low life expectancy due to
>> a variety of reasons. That includes Germany which has inherited Soviet
>> Block East Germany. Check your facts.
>
> Check YOUR facts. How much is due to reproduction, how much to
> immigration?
>

The UN has published all the necessary data on this, especially the Total
Fertility Rates, TFRs. They show how many children a woman will have in her
reproductive years. 63 nations are now below 2.2 (some say 2.1), which is
zero population growth or less. Why the extra .1? Infertility and
mortality.

"bill" > wrote in message
m...
> george conklin wrote:
>> "bill" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>> Amy Blankenship wrote:
>>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>> bill > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article .net>,
>>>>>>>> "george conklin" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Small farms would condemn about 75% of the current world's
>>>>>>>>>>> population to death. That is not a solution except for death.
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if the 75% is correct but the basic idea is sound.
>>>>>>>> No, it's not. Where do you think 75% (actually more) of the
>>>>>>>> world's population gets its food now? From small farms. Large
>>>>>>>> scale agribusiness farming is the purview of economically developed
>>>>>>>> countries which feeds a fraction of the world's population
>>>>>>>> regularly, and which does provide emergency capacity when food
>>>>>>>> production fails in ecologically difficult areas due to drought,
>>>>>>>> flooding, fires, etc. In the latter case, large scale farming does
>>>>>>>> save lives. However, 75% of the world's population is not all
>>>>>>>> going to suffer such catastrophes at once.
>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is surplus anyway. I just read where
>>>>>>> the United States is going to top 300 million around October 15.
>>>>>>> Compared to the country (this one) I grew up in that is about 150
>>>>>>> million too many. We are paving over everything, quite literally. I
>>>>>>> went to visit the houses I grew up in, back in Illinois and all the
>>>>>>> corn fields I grew up playing in are now built over with housing or
>>>>>>> "Condo-fields". If we keep replacing corn with people we are going
>>>>>>> to be in deeper **** than we are now. Rolling the global population
>>>>>>> to about 1 billion (max) and keeping it there with some no growth
>>>>>>> thinking is about the only way the human race will be here in
>>>>>>> another 200 years. I think we are setting ourselves up far a mass
>>>>>>> plague or starvation that is going to thin out the population. We
>>>>>>> just plain doesn't need so many people.
>>>>>> I suspect that there are points of agreement that we could find, but
>>>>>> there are also points of disagreement. For example, your claim that
>>>>>> 75% of the population is "surplus." Of course, that gives you a 4:1
>>>>>> chance of being one of the surplus ones. ;-) I agree that there is
>>>>>> overpopulation not only in America but around the world as well. I
>>>>>> cannot bring myself to call anyone "surplus," however. They have
>>>>>> every bit as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
>>>>>> as I have.
>>>>> My actual solution was to ship food to them that had fertility
>>>>> impairment hormones in it or mandate a vasectomy or tube tie in order
>>>>> to qualify if people already had 2 or more children. Nobody gets hurt,
>>>>> but nobody gets to have 10 kids they can't feed, either.
>>>> I think you're operating under two fundamental misconceptions:
>>>>
>>>> 1) That civilizations never reach a point where population stops
>>>> increasing
>>>> 2) That children never feed their parents
>>>>
>>>> If you look at the most developed nations, population growth through
>>>> reproduction is in the near-zero to negative range, depending on which
>>>> country you're talking about. This implies that as more and more
>>>> nations become industrialized, population will level off or even
>>>> decline. The reason we have such extreme population growth now is that
>>>> we have better education, health care, food production, and food
>>>> distribution. So mortality is down.
>>> Way off base for the US.
>>
>> You are very ignorant. No native-born group reproduces itself in the
>> USA. Immigration causes population growth here, but they are only meeting
>> a demand for labor that a insufficient birth rate from native-born groups
>> fails to provide.
> Hah,
> I do have 2 cents to add to this one. I went into a Taco Bell not too long
> ago and couldn't order what I wanted without a whole lot of sign language.

Taco Bell does demography now? How interesting.

"george conklin" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>> I do have 2 cents to add to this one. I went into a Taco Bell not too
>> long ago and couldn't order what I wanted without a whole lot of sign
>> language.
>
> Taco Bell does demography now? How interesting.

Well, better that than pornography.

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 20:29:33 -0700, Amy Blankenship
> wrote:

>
> "Lorenzo L. Love" > wrote in message
> newsp.tg6g5gw7pheghf@ibm22761843607...
>> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:14:11 -0700, Amy Blankenship
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Lorenzo L. Love" > wrote in message
>>> newsp.tg4z9tigpheghf@ibm22761843607...
>>>> On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:15:58 -0700, Amy Blankenship
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>>>> m...
>>>>>> Amy Blankenship wrote:
>>>>>>> "bill" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>> bill > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>>> .net>,
>>>>>>>>>>> "george conklin" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Small farms would condemn about 75% of the current world's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> population to death. That is not a solution except for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> death.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if the 75% is correct but the basic idea is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sound.
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's not. Where do you think 75% (actually more) of the
>>>>>>>>>>> world's
>>>>>>>>>>> population gets its food now? From small farms. Large scale
>>>>>>>>>>> agribusiness farming is the purview of economically developed
>>>>>>>>>>> countries which feeds a fraction of the world's population
>>>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>>>> and which does provide emergency capacity when food production
>>>>>>>>>>> fails
>>>>>>>>>>> in ecologically difficult areas due to drought, flooding,
>>>>>>>>>>> fires,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> In the latter case, large scale farming does save lives.
>>>>>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is not all going to suffer such
>>>>>>>>>>> catastrophes at once.
>>>>>>>>>> 75% of the world's population is surplus anyway. I just read
>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> United States is going to top 300 million around October 15.
>>>>>>>>>> Compared
>>>>>>>>>> to the country (this one) I grew up in that is about 150 million
>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>> many. We are paving over everything, quite literally. I went to
>>>>>>>>>> visit
>>>>>>>>>> the houses I grew up in, back in Illinois and all the corn
>>>>>>>>>> fields
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> grew up playing in are now built over with housing or
>>>>>>>>>> "Condo-fields".
>>>>>>>>>> If we keep replacing corn with people we are going to be in
>>>>>>>>>> deeper
>>>>>>>>>> **** than we are now. Rolling the global population to about 1
>>>>>>>>>> billion
>>>>>>>>>> (max) and keeping it there with some no growth thinking is about
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> only way the human race will be here in another 200 years. I
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> are setting ourselves up far a mass plague or starvation that is
>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>> to thin out the population. We just plain doesn't need so many
>>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>> I suspect that there are points of agreement that we could find,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> there are also points of disagreement. For example, your claim
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> 75% of the population is "surplus." Of course, that gives you a
>>>>>>>>> 4:1
>>>>>>>>> chance of being one of the surplus ones. ;-) I agree that there
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> overpopulation not only in America but around the world as
>>>>>>>>> well. I
>>>>>>>>> cannot bring myself to call anyone "surplus," however. They have
>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> bit as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> have.
>>>>>>>> My actual solution was to ship food to them that had fertility
>>>>>>>> impairment hormones in it or mandate a vasectomy or tube tie in
>>>>>>>> order
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> qualify if people already had 2 or more children. Nobody gets
>>>>>>>> hurt,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> nobody gets to have 10 kids they can't feed, either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you're operating under two fundamental misconceptions:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) That civilizations never reach a point where population stops
>>>>>>> increasing
>>>>>>> 2) That children never feed their parents
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you look at the most developed nations, population growth
>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>> reproduction is in the near-zero to negative range, depending on
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> country you're talking about. This implies that as more and more
>>>>>>> nations
>>>>>>> become industrialized, population will level off or even decline.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> reason we have such extreme population growth now is that we have
>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>> education, health care, food production, and food distribution. So
>>>>>>> mortality is down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Way off base for the US. We get one pregnant Mexican having a baby
>>>>>> here
>>>>>> and the whole illegal family stays, so that one 'Citizen' gives a
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>> pre-existing family the right to stay here. Mortality due to disease
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> down from what it used to be, but then people in non-developed
>>>>>> countries
>>>>>> just have more children who then starve and of course, we send them
>>>>>> food.
>>>>>> Us Natural born Americans don't have that many children because we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> too
>>>>>> busy working to survive the high cost of living to support all the
>>>>>> immigrants who we have to support through social programs. China and
>>>>>> India
>>>>>> are both over 1 Billion and will keep going as long as we keep
>>>>>> bleeding
>>>>>> money to them, which will eventually make us the "EX" superpower.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, you're talking about population growth in the US through
>>>>> immigration
>>>>> vs reproduction, which is exactly what I said.
>>>>>
>>>>> China and India are growing, but their populations are stabilizing as
>>>>> they
>>>>> need to educate themselves more to be able to fill the tech jobs that
>>>>> are
>>>>> being outsourced there.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now let's look at the second premise. In the developing world,
>>>>>>> children
>>>>>>> are often valuable hands to produce food and/or the means to get
>>>>>>> food.
>>>>>>> So in that sense, developing nations can't afford "pet children"
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> not expected to return any value to the family in the way we do in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> US. So people in developing nations tend to reproduce more because
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> need the additional hands and because of higher infant and child
>>>>>>> mortality rates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't read much, do you? The reason they try to reproduce so
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> that there is a high rate of infant death caused by the birth of a
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> child. Once there is a new baby to breast feed the next older one is
>>>>>> expected to survive on adult food and often dies from malnutrition.
>>>>>> Our answer to this? Throw money at them or "Adopt" a child in a far
>>>>>> away
>>>>>> land, thus making it our problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't read *well* do you? I did way they reproduce more in part
>>>>> because
>>>>> of higher infant and child mortality.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Small amounts of education, especially for female children, greatly
>>>>>>> reduces mortality among infants and children, so population will
>>>>>>> initially spike as education becomes available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uh-huh!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But this makes the benefits of education tangible, so developng
>>>>>>> peoples
>>>>>>> slowly spend more and more time in school in order to reap more
>>>>>>> benefits
>>>>>>> of education. This extends the childhood years, and people begin
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> reproduce less. In addition, since the children are spending all
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> time learning, they are not an asset to the household, but a drain
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> until they become productive in their teens or twenties. At which
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>> they are themselves ready to reproduce, so they split off into
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>> households *and never return any value to the parent household.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And this is exactly why as nations develop, population levels off.
>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> we really want to control population we need to educate, educate,
>>>>>>> educate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You really do believe the view through your rose colored glasses,
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just call it the way I see it. Do you really think that the fact
>>>>> that
>>>>> people in developed nations don't even reproduce enough to sustain
>>>>> their
>>>>> own
>>>>> numbers isn't a natural result of the way nations come to be
>>>>> developed?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Developed nations like the U.S., Australia, France or the United
>>>> Kingdom?
>>>> All have positive population growth rates. Even Japan which is often
>>>> cited
>>>> as an example of a stable population has a positive population growth
>>>> rate. The few Western nations that have negative growth rates are
>>>> mostly
>>>> former Soviet Block nations which have low life expectancy due to a
>>>> variety of reasons. That includes Germany which has inherited Soviet
>>>> Block
>>>> East Germany. Check your facts.
>>>
>>> Check YOUR facts. How much is due to reproduction, how much to
>>> immigration?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The U.S. has a birth rate of 14.14 births/1,000 population vs a death
>> rate
>> of 8.26 deaths/1,000 population. People born in the U.S., not
>> immigration.
>> Similarly the other developed nations cited have simplely more people
>> being born in them then dying in them. This info is readily available if
>> you would bother to look and not blindly repeat anti-immigrant
>> propaganda.
>> Can you cite a few non former Soviet Block developed nations that have
>> more deaths then births?
>
> First, saying that population in industrialized nations is due more to
> immigration than to reproduction is neither for or anti immigration.
> It's
> just a statement with no value judgments. I happen to be married to an
> immigrant and we've discussed immigrating somewhere else ourselves later
> in
> life.
>
> Second, according to wikipedia, "In industrialized countries with low
> child
> mortality, sub-replacement fertility is below approximately 2.1 children
> per
> woman's life time. 2.1 children per woman includes 2 children to replace
> the
> parents, with one-tenth of a child extra to make up for the mortality of
> children who do not reach the age of 15, which is the defined age when
> the
> fertility rate is calculated."
> ....
> "While almost all of the developed world, and many other nations, have
> seen
> plummeting fertility rates over the last twenty-years, the United States'
> rates have remained stable and even slightly increased. Note however that
> some European countries have gradually increasing fertility rates, most
> notably France, whose fertility rate increased to 1.85 in 2005.
> Nevertheless
> even France remains below the 2.09 children/woman fertility rate of the
> US."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility
>
> The difference is that you're looking at the balance of births and deaths
> *today*, where a lot of different factors come into play like a large
> group
> of people born in the 40's and 50's that happen to be healthy and aging.
> Replacement population looks at how many children a couple will actually
> produce over the course of their lifetime with the logical expectation
> that
> they both will die at some point. So that ultimately to permanently
> replace
> themselves they have to each produce at least one child. If somehow
> previous generations were to become immortal we'd need to look at
> replacement population differently.
>
> Hope this clarifies;
>
> Amy
>
>

What is it about "gradually increasing fertility rates" that you do not
understand? The population of the U.S. and most non former Soviet Block
developed nations are increasing. Not due to immigration but to native
births. In the U.S. birth rate is 14.14 births/1,000 population vs a death
rate of 8.26 deaths/1,000 population for a surplus of 5.88 extra
people/1,000 population. The net migration rate is only 3.18
migrants/1,000 population. Tell me how "population in industrialized
nations is due more to immigration than to reproduction" makes any sense?
The world population is increasing. Are you going to blame that on
immigration? It is expected that the world population will level off at
around 9 billion by 2050 or so. The problem is the world can't support 9
billion people. It can't support the current 6 billion for long. Forget
little things like running out of oil. We are running out of fresh water
and top soil. If you think the wars being fought over oil are bad, wait
until we start fighting over water.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"They're making people every day, but they ain't makin' any more dirt."
Will Rogers