Import owners are to blame for the recession

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:10:32 -0500, 80 Knight wrote:

> "Dillon Pyron" > wrote in message
> news
>> Thus spake :
>>
>>>If all Americans bought American cars, the US economy would be rockin
>>>and rollin right now. Don't give me that stuff about Toyota and Honda
>>>manufacturing over here either. GM employs 130,000 in the United
>>>States. Toyota employs 30,000, Honda less than that. Most of the
>>>import jobs are just blue collar jobs also, where GM has over 50,000
>>>engineers. The Japanese automakers have brainwashed us into thinking
>>>that buying their car is an investment in this country. I say we buy
>>>from the Big Three and take our economy back.
>>
>> Right. Like I want a Burb or an F150. Detroit ****ed away their
>> survival years ago when they decided that they could sell low mileage,
>> high margin trucks. Now they're paying the price for looking at today
>> and ignoring tomorrow.
>
> You mean, they sold what buyers wanted? How dare they! And if "low
> mileage high margin trucks" were a bad thing, why did Toyota get into
> that field too?
>
>> Our economy tanked because too many people got greedy and bought houses
>> they couldn't afford. Now they can't afford a $30,000 burb. But they
>> can afford a $12,000 Corolla.
>
> That Corolla must be used...
>
>> BTW, a friend who until
>> recently was a sales manager at a Chevy dealer here said (this was in
>> July) that he had a 5 month supply of Suburbans and Tahoes, but was
>> selling Cobalts off the truck. But Detroit isn't geared up to sell the
>> small cars.
>
> Wrong. Here is a list of the cars Detroit is selling, in the top 20
> sales through October 2008:
> The Chevy Impala is #9, Ford Focus #10, Chevy Cobalt #12, Chevy Malibu
> #13, Ford Escape #16,
> Ford Fusion #17, and the Pontiac G6 #18. Like I said in another post,
> the facts are GM especially, builds
> more vehicles people want then any other auto maker, as is proven by the
> sales numbers.
>
>> I don't know if you've noticed, but ALL the car makers are tanking.
>
> Yes, they are. However, Ford is still Number One, and GM Number Two.
>
>> - dillon I am not invalid
>
> Your "facts" are though.


Find me one of these:

HHR LT 2LT

Starting at $20,800.00

* Features shown below are in addition to, or in place of, 1LT
features: * Audio system featu Pioneer premium 7-speaker system
with amplified tweeters and rear subwoofer * Brakes: Four wheel
antilock, front disc/rear drum * Bright Chrome Exterior Appearance
Package: Includes bright chrome grille, outside mirrors, lift gate
appliqué, door handles and roof-mounted side rails; when equipped *
Engine: ECOTEC 2.4L DOHC four-cylinder with 172 hp * Exhaust tip,
3.5-inch bright chrome * Foglamps
* Mirror: Inside rearview auto-dimming with compass display. Outside:
power with bright-chrome cap. * Steering Wheel: Leather-wrapped,
includes mounted audio controls. * Suspension: Sport
* Traction contron: all-speed, full function * Wheels: 17-inch
high-polished, forged-aluminum

NOTE: 5 speed transmission.

Your search returned no vehicles. Please modify your criteria and search
again.


This is within 100 miles of Massachusetts.

Nice. I can't get what I want! Any wonder I go to Toyota?

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:29:03 -0500, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com>
wrote:

>In November Fords sales dropped 30%, Toyota 33%

But what are the basis for those drops? A year ago Ford was already
experiencing crappy sales while Toyota was still strong. 33% less
than good beats 30% less than crappy. Remember that two years ago
Ford was actually outselling Toyota.


>"80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message
m...
>> "Dillon Pyron" > wrote in message
>
>>
>>> I don't know if you've noticed, but ALL the car makers are tanking.
>>
>> Yes, they are. However, Ford is still Number One, and GM Number Two.
>>
>>> - dillon I am not invalid
>>
>> Your "facts" are though.
>>
>

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:17:57 -0500, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com>
wrote:

>You seem to be confused, buyer have always CHOSEN to buy what they buy. The
>Ford F150 has been, for thirty one years and is still today, the number one
>selling vehicle in the US. The F150 has always sold for the most part at a
>rate nearly twice that of the best selling car. While Toyota had to shut
>down its brand new Tundra plant built by the taxpayers of Texas, because of
>dismal sales, Ford had to add two shifts to one of its F150 plants and a
>second shift to another.

You seem to have forgotten that this summer Civics, Corollas, Camrys
and Accords were all outselling F150s. The Urban Idiot Cowboys stop
buying pickups when gas is above $3.50.


>"Dillon Pyron" > wrote in message
>news
>> Thus spake :
>>
>>>If all Americans bought American cars, the US economy would be rockin
>>>and rollin right now. Don't give me that stuff about Toyota and Honda
>>>manufacturing over here either. GM employs 130,000 in the United
>>>States. Toyota employs 30,000, Honda less than that. Most of the
>>>import jobs are just blue collar jobs also, where GM has over 50,000
>>>engineers. The Japanese automakers have brainwashed us into thinking
>>>that buying their car is an investment in this country. I say we buy
>>>from the Big Three and take our economy back.
>>
>> Right. Like I want a Burb or an F150. Detroit ****ed away their
>> survival years ago when they decided that they could sell low mileage,
>> high margin trucks. Now they're paying the price for looking at today
>> and ignoring tomorrow.
>

"Gordon McGrew" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:29:03 -0500, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com>
> wrote:
>
>>In November Fords sales dropped 30%, Toyota 33%
>
> But what are the basis for those drops? A year ago Ford was already
> experiencing crappy sales while Toyota was still strong. 33% less
> than good beats 30% less than crappy. Remember that two years ago
> Ford was actually outselling Toyota.


Don't get all mathy on Hunter. He's old and perpetually drunk.

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:18:31 -0500, "Cathy F."
> wrote:

>
>"HLS" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Cathy F." > wrote in message
>>> I say we buy what is the best, most economical, most intelligent buy.
>>> The American automakers have screwed up time & again; they've become
>>> mired in their own mud. Problem is... the mud's splattering.
>>>
>>> Cathy (aat)
>>
>>
>> Very logical...The Big 3 should maybe listen to the customer more.
>>
>> I have no doubt the Big 3 can compete in quality and design if they wish
>> to
>> do so, and if they market their products well, they should be competitive.
>>
>> But talking isnt always doing. Do, Big 3
>
>With so much on the line, one has to wonder... why *haven't* they
>accomplished the "do"??
>
>Cathy


But I think they have...
For example my 2002 Dodge Caravan has been the most reliable vehicle
that I've ever owned.
Aside from normal wear items like brake pads, it's only needed one
repair in 120,000 miles, that being the fan belt tensioner.

My '87 Honda Accord needed the complete exhaust system, an alternator
and the two front axles replaced before that mileage.

The Detroit Big Three are being judged by the vehicles they made 30
years ago.

Ford had more vehicles in the J.D. Powers to ten quality rating than
any other maker. Lincoln comes in tops with owner satisfation.

The big three also make quite a few car models that get over 28 miles
per gallon.

Their problem is the cost disadvantages that they face.
It costs them about $1500/more per vehicle, not just in labor but in
legacy medical or pension costs, than the Japanese makers with
assembly plants in the USA.

Chevrolet sells a Cobalt for a base price of about $14000 to compete
with the Japanese and looses money on every one they sell.
Ford and Chrysler's entry level/economy cars have the same problem.
I suspect that Ford also looses money on every Focus they sell. Yet,
its a car with great economy, safety and reliability ratings.

Doug

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 03:31:52 -0500, Doug wrote:

>>With so much on the line, one has to wonder... why *haven't* they
>>accomplished the "do"??
>>
>>Cathy
>
>
> But I think they have...
> For example my 2002 Dodge Caravan has been the most reliable vehicle
> that I've ever owned.
> Aside from normal wear items like brake pads, it's only needed one
> repair in 120,000 miles, that being the fan belt tensioner.

I had a bit more than that with a couple of my '92s, but then one had
229,000 when I got it. The other one had broken rocker towers, a common
problem on the early 3.3 L engine, but one Chrysler KNEW about!!! (It's on
the web...)

I also had an LHS, given to me with 148,000 on it. Ran it up to 169,000
and traded it for $600 towards a Scion. Still kicking myself over that.
For $600 I should have kept it. It was a good running car, and I still
miss it after 2 years!


>
> My '87 Honda Accord needed the complete exhaust system, an alternator
> and the two front axles replaced before that mileage.
>
> The Detroit Big Three are being judged by the vehicles they made 30
> years ago.


Yup. They got a reputation for junk while Japan Inc was building a
reputation for quality.

My Mom will never own another Ford or Chevy again.

> The Detroit Big Three are being judged by the vehicles they made 30
> years ago.

Bullshirt! My 95 S-10 was just as bad as anything we owned in the 60's.
They still haven't changed their attitude. I had rust on the vehicle in
some of the oddest spots within a year of owning the vehicle, which I bought
new.

Never again a Detroit rustbucket.

Sir Charles the Curmudgeon

"Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
news
> On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:49:33 -0500, 80 Knight wrote:
>
>> "News" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>>
>>>
>>> 80 Knight wrote:
>>>
>>>> Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
>>>> By Chris Demorro
>>>> Staff Writer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society
>>>> so
>>>> environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to
>>>> show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their
>>>> ultimate
>>>> green car is the source of some of the worst pollution in North
>>>> America;
>>>> it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
>>>> Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first
>>>> understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular
>>>> hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.
>>>>
>>>> The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76
>>>> horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a
>>>> battery-
>>>> powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of
>>>> torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota
>>>> Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead
>>>> stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is
>>>> consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to
>>>> get
>>>> an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged
>>>> through
>>>> the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over
>>>> anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and
>>>> environmentally sound car, right?
>>>>
>>>> You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates,
>>>> which
>>>> netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51
>>>> miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the
>>>> government
>>>> realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of
>>>> highway
>>>> speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second.
>>>> The
>>>> new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic
>>>> rating
>>>> with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This
>>>> has dropped the Prius EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg.
>>>> This
>>>> now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy
>>>> Aveo,
>>>> which costs less then half what the Prius costs.
>>>>
>>>> However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn't be
>>>> writing
>>>> this article. It gets much worse.
>>>>
>>>> Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer
>>>> that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already
>>>> noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel.
>>>> The
>>>> nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant
>>>> has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment
>>>> that NASA has used the "dead zone" around the plant to test moon
>>>> rovers.
>>>> The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.
>>>>
>>>> The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius battery and
>>>> Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the
>>>> plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario,
>>>> becoming every environmentalists nightmare.
>>>>
>>>> The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and
>>>> the soil slid down off the hillside, said Canadian Greenpeace
>>>> energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a
>>>> British-based newspaper.
>>>>
>>>> All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey
>>>> to
>>>> make a hybrid doesn't end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous
>>>> plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel
>>>> refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to
>>>> produce
>>>> nickel foam. From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed
>>>> batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the
>>>> around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are
>>>> these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and
>>>> more
>>>> like a farce?
>>>>
>>>> Wait, I haven't even got to the best part yet.
>>>>
>>>> When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and
>>>> build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes
>>>> almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius' arch nemesis.
>>>>
>>>> Through a study by CNW Marketing called "Dust to Dust", the total
>>>> combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation,
>>>> materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the
>>>> expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per
>>>> mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of
>>>> the Hybrid.
>>>>
>>>> The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to
>>>> put
>>>> on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the
>>>> Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined
>>>> energy doing it.
>>>>
>>>> So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead,
>>>> buy
>>>> one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion. The Scion
>>>> only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still
>>>> obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.
>>>>
>>>> One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium
>>>> price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money
>>>> over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Notwithstanding the other claims, has the first Hummer reached 100,000
>>> miles? Let alone the notional 300,000 mile lifetime.
>>
>> I could tell you that I have seen Hummer's with well over 300,000 miles,
>> but
>> without actual DMV proof, the question can't really be answered.
>
> I can show you Suburbans with 300,000 miles on them.
>
> But it's an exception. Lots of Japanese cars reach 300,000 easily.
>
> Keep slugging away, though. You might convince someone other than
> yourself.
>
>
>

GERMAN VWs are also known for their longeivity, dependabiltiy, and gas
mileage. More current female and or pregnant driver cars are the exception.
Japanese vehicles did not hold the crown on this until VW gave in to fickle
Americans they did market research on. No, I'm not talking the Beetle even
though its demise went that way as well. VW lost its way circa 95.
--
Dave

2008 Focus , 5 spd no frills coupe- to date per fillup - 33 mpg low - 39 mpg
high.

How much CO footprint to remove and transport basic materials for batteries
and to manufacture the batteries for the Ford Fusion and any other hybrid?

"Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:55:36 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>>>>> I could tell you that I have seen Hummer's with well over 300,000
>>>>> miles, but
>>>>> without actual DMV proof, the question can't really be answered.
>>>> I can show you Suburbans with 300,000 miles on them.
>>>>
>>>> But it's an exception. Lots of Japanese cars reach 300,000 easily.
>>>>
>>>> Keep slugging away, though. You might convince someone other than
>>>> yourself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Most vehicles will go 300K with good maint. The Prius has a *design
>>> life* of 100K miles.
>>
>> To be fair, I think most cars do. Most original owners don't keep a car
>> for 100K miles. The only road vehicles I know of that really seem to be
>> designed for the long haul are heavy trucks and German cars.
>
> German cars will run forever! Because they're in the shop half their
> lives...
>
> NEVER will I buy a VW again!
>
>
>

An extension of an exaggeration. FACTORY VW parts are expensive, as are
Toyoto and Nissan. Repair in a VW dealership is always and had always been
longer than most others. A true VW afficiando has the latitude and ability
(with parts) to effect repairs. As does a Toyota or Nissan owner.

Late VWs are relatively poor on mpgs, not worth the monies unless you're
pregnant or a young female where you get emmotionallly off on such a
vehicle. Some prior VWs, 350K was just breaking the vehicle in, male or
female driver. Many Toyotas and Nissans (Datsuns) have great life
expectancy as well. But, I would not put that rubber stamp on all of them.
--
Dave

2008 Focus , 5 spd no frills coupe- to date per fillup - 33 mpg low - 39 mpg
high.

How much CO footprint to remove and transport basic materials for batteries
and to manufacture the batteries for the Ford Fusion and any other hybrid?

"Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
news
> On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 21:16:46 -0500, 80 Knight wrote:
>
>> "Jeff" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> On Dec 9, 8:26 am, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:
>>> Learned yesterday that the total CO footprint to get the raw materials
>>> for
>>> the batteries and make batteries for the Toyota Prius far outweighs
>>> current
>>> gasoline fed counterparts in the lifetime of the vehicle. The nickel
>>> comes
>>> from Canada, and the batteries are made in China. Will GM's source of
>>> batteries have the same CO impact for the VOLT?
>>
>> Evidence, please. Show us where the analysis came.
>> ================================================== ==
>>
>> Google is your friend. Try using it.
>>
>> March 7, 2007
>>
>> Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
>> By Chris Demorro
>> Staff Writer
>>
>>
>> The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so
>> environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to
>> show
>> the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate
>> green
>> car is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it
>> takes
>> more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
>> Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first
>> understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular
>> hybrid
>> on the market, the Toyota Prius.
>>
>> The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76
>> horsepower,
>> 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered
>> engine
>> that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below
>> 2000
>> revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as
>> it
>> is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is
>> where
>> the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell
>> you,
>> it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The
>> battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the
>> gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great
>> energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?
>>
>> You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which
>> netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51
>> miles
>> per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government
>> realized
>> how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds
>> limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new
>> tests
>> which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with
>> highway
>> speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the
>> Prius EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the
>> Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs
>> less then half what the Prius costs.
>>
>> However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn't be writing
>> this article. It gets much worse.
>>
>> Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer
>> that
>> is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the
>> Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is
>> mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused
>> so
>> much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has
>> used
>> the "dead zone" around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the
>> plant is devoid of any life for miles.
>>
>> The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius battery and
>> Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the
>> plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario,
>> becoming
>> every environmentalists nightmare.
>>
>> The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and
>> the
>> soil slid down off the hillside, said Canadian Greenpeace
>> energy-coordinator
>> David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.
>>
>> All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to
>> make a hybrid doesn't end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous
>> plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel
>> refinery
>> in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce nickel
>> foam.
>> From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are
>> shipped
>> to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to
>> produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like
>> environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?
>>
>> Wait, I haven't even got to the best part yet.
>>
>> When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and
>> build a
>> Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50
>> percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius' arch nemesis.
>>
>> Through a study by CNW Marketing called "Dust to Dust", the total
>> combined
>> energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials
>> (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected
>> lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile
>> driven
>> over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
>>
>> The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put
>> on
>> the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the
>> Hummer
>> will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy
>> doing
>> it.
>>
>> So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy
>> one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion. The Scion
>> only
>> costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still
>> obsessed
>> over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.
>>
>> One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium
>> price
>> of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a
>> non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
>
>
> I'm sure it more than makes up for it in operation.
>
> Nice try, though! Keep telling us how bad Japanese cars are. you might
> convince yourself...
>

He did not say "how bad Japanese care are". You did by YOUR reply. But,
you can continue to convince yourself otherwise....
--
Dave

2008 Focus , 5 spd no frills coupe- to date per fillup - 33 mpg low - 39 mpg
high.

How much CO footprint to remove and transport basic materials for batteries
and to manufacture the batteries for the Ford Fusion and any other hybrid?