to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt

jim beam wrote:

>> I always thought there was some person in charge of final editing,
>> like the
>> first author. In other words, Wikipedia is not a free for all where
>> anyone
>> can post anything to the main article.
>
>
> anyone can post anything. try it yourself. you'd be surprised at how
> the good stuff is persistent and the crap gets quickly fixed.

Most Wikis store a version history as well (some indefinitely), so if
someone borks a page, it's easy to revert to the last "good" version.


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Elle wrote:

> Pink frost glitter should be a staple of every honda technician's toolbox.

Naaaah, it would clash with my Accord's dark blue.

> I dunno about this wiki proposal, though. It sounds like any yahoo can go in
> there and mess with things. I think a hman filter is needed, if only to
> ensure something with which Tegger (and possibly others) doesn't agree
> doesn't go up. It is his site, after all, as you know. He's done a lot of
> work on it and I don't know if the wiki feature could have brought it as
> far.

That's why I noted that some Wikis do support access controls; I've
checked out a few opensource PHP-based ones this afternoon and the most
promising ("Wikka") at least allows administrator locking of individual
pages, or the entire site.

Really, my thinking wasn't to have everyone able to muck with it... it
was more to ease Tegger's workload in updating the site, and making
searching more efficient and effective: most will cross-index things
automatically, so, for example, in the instructions for changing the CV
shafts, you don't have to include the part on how to remove the discs
and hubs and control arms, but instead set those steps up as their own
sub-sections and have the system automatically hot-link to them.

Granted, I don't know how he does it now, if he's using HTML templates
in something like Dreamweaver or FirstPage, or doing it all in Notepad,
or what...


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jim beam > wrote in
:


<snip>


>
> in this instance, it /can/ tighten because of crank rotation
> direction.
> the pulley /is/ keyed as you say, but it still has a small degree of
> lash, and the pulley/bolt still have momentum. and crank rotation
> velocity spikes with each cylinder combustion.



Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Once tightened to spec, that bolt does not
move.


>
> when i was messing about with my crx, i played with the bolt tightness
> a little bit and found that i could have the bolt done to torque and
> easy to undo again, [i forgot something and had to remove the pulley a
> couple of times] yet one high speed test drive later, the bolt's one
> super-tight sob again!



It did not rotate to cause this. There are other factors at play here, but
rotation is NOT one of them. This identical same thing happens with Toyotas
and other cars where the engines turns the other way around from Hondas.

The crank pulley has a tiny bit of play even when keyed, but it does not
have nearly enough rotational displacement to ave any significant effect on
torque.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Matt Ion > wrote in
news:cQT8f.346755$tl2.247052@pd7tw3no:


>
> Granted, I don't know how he does it now, if he's using HTML templates
> in something like Dreamweaver or FirstPage,



You mean FrontPage?


> or doing it all in
> Notepad, or what...



I'm using Mozilla's Composer, which really really sucks, but it's quick and
free.

The interface is from John Ings, the founder. I never liked it (especially
how it looks in Internet Explorer), but in the interests of consistency
until a complete overhaul, I've kept it.

My CSS conversion is being done entirely by hand in Notepad, but I've done
nothing with it since the summer.
http://www.tegger.com/honda-css/
(Only the first three work. Sort of)

I've actually got the CSS stuff up on screen right now, with grand
intentions of reviving it, but...

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Matt Ion" > wrote
> Elle wrote:
> > I dunno about this wiki proposal, though. It sounds like any yahoo can
go in
> > there and mess with things. I think a hman filter is needed, if only to
> > ensure something with which Tegger (and possibly others) doesn't agree
> > doesn't go up. It is his site, after all, as you know. He's done a lot
of
> > work on it and I don't know if the wiki feature could have brought it as
> > far.
>
> That's why I noted that some Wikis do support access controls; I've
> checked out a few opensource PHP-based ones this afternoon and the most
> promising ("Wikka") at least allows administrator locking of individual
> pages, or the entire site.

That's the missing link. Now I understand.

> Really, my thinking wasn't to have everyone able to muck with it...

I understand and did not mean to accuse you of the same. I just figured I
was missing something and would have to go read up on the minutiae how
Wikipedia works. No way could the main Wikipedia entries be so "clean"
without some kind of controls.

> it
> was more to ease Tegger's workload in updating the site, and making
> searching more efficient and effective: most will cross-index things
> automatically, so, for example, in the instructions for changing the CV
> shafts, you don't have to include the part on how to remove the discs
> and hubs and control arms, but instead set those steps up as their own
> sub-sections and have the system automatically hot-link to them.

I follow. Not to push Tegger around or anything, though. I've been using his
igniter section (partly to parse all that condenser ( = capacitor) stuff Jim
Beam's posting and see the layering and treeing etc. is getting tricky. It's
still very user friendly, but I can kinda see how the editor/owner of such a
site has to do a lot of work to keep it up. (I wouldn't do any better.)

> Granted, I don't know how he does it now, if he's using HTML templates
> in something like Dreamweaver or FirstPage, or doing it all in Notepad,
> or what...

Notepad. I remember those days. (Though it's not like I'm cussing any less
using Earthlink's web site builder. I still get to the source code through a
convenient back door it provides and make any doggone changes I want.)

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> :
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>in this instance, it /can/ tighten because of crank rotation
>>direction.
>> the pulley /is/ keyed as you say, but it still has a small degree of
>>lash, and the pulley/bolt still have momentum. and crank rotation
>>velocity spikes with each cylinder combustion.
>
>
>
>
> Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Once tightened to spec, that bolt does not
> move.

dude, it can and it does. that's why drive shaft nuts are peened - same
thing. one will tighten, the other loosen. the amount of movement is
restricted to the lash on each side of the key, but it doesn't even need
a thou to slowly rotate. just because it doesn't /look/ like it's
moving, doesn't mean it won't!

>
>
>
>>when i was messing about with my crx, i played with the bolt tightness
>>a little bit and found that i could have the bolt done to torque and
>>easy to undo again, [i forgot something and had to remove the pulley a
>>couple of times] yet one high speed test drive later, the bolt's one
>>super-tight sob again!
>
>
>
>
> It did not rotate to cause this. There are other factors at play here, but
> rotation is NOT one of them. This identical same thing happens with Toyotas
> and other cars where the engines turns the other way around from Hondas.
>
> The crank pulley has a tiny bit of play even when keyed, but it does not
> have nearly enough rotational displacement to ave any significant effect on
> torque.

again, untrue. q: how much rotation is attributable to each hammer blow
in a pneumatic impact driver a: not much! it's the extremely high blow
count that gets it moving and then the turbine can take over the job of
winding the nut/bolt off.

TeGGeR® wrote:
> Matt Ion > wrote in
> news:cQT8f.346755$tl2.247052@pd7tw3no:
>
>
>
>>Granted, I don't know how he does it now, if he's using HTML templates
>>in something like Dreamweaver or FirstPage,
>
>
>
>
> You mean FrontPage?

Nope. FirstPage2000, from www.evrsoft.com. It's a freeware HTML
editor, basically a clone of another commercial package that I've
forgotten the name of (Macromedia bought out the commercial one and
bundled it with StudioMX).

Fr*ntpage is a filthy word, as far as I'm concerned...

> I've actually got the CSS stuff up on screen right now, with grand
> intentions of reviving it, but...

Hmmm... I know a lot of PHP CMS (content management system) backends use
CSS... an appropriately-equipped Wiki probably would as well.

I can toss a couple up on my webserver if you want to take a look at the
idea. If not, no biggie, was just a thought


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jim beam > wrote in
:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> jim beam > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>>in this instance, it /can/ tighten because of crank rotation
>>>direction.
>>> the pulley /is/ keyed as you say, but it still has a small degree
>>> of
>>>lash, and the pulley/bolt still have momentum. and crank rotation
>>>velocity spikes with each cylinder combustion.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Once tightened to spec, that bolt does
>> not move.
>
> dude, it can and it does. that's why drive shaft nuts are peened -
> same thing. one will tighten, the other loosen.



Do you havre any references to this?



> the amount of
> movement is restricted to the lash on each side of the key, but it
> doesn't even need a thou to slowly rotate. just because it doesn't
> /look/ like it's moving, doesn't mean it won't!



Then explain why the exact same thing happens to Toyotas, Fords and other
vehicles that turn the engine such as to LOOSEN the bolt.

I have been unable to find any references to your alleged phenomenon in
Google searches.


My personal theory is that with heat and vibration, the bolt and its
threads "settle in" and thus increase their static friction.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam > wrote in
:
>>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>
>>>>in this instance, it /can/ tighten because of crank rotation
>>>>direction.
>>>> the pulley /is/ keyed as you say, but it still has a small degree
>>>> of
>>>>lash, and the pulley/bolt still have momentum. and crank rotation
>>>>velocity spikes with each cylinder combustion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Once tightened to spec, that bolt does
>>>not move.
>>
>>dude, it can and it does. that's why drive shaft nuts are peened -
>>same thing. one will tighten, the other loosen.
>
>
>
>
> Do you havre any references to this?
>
>
>
>
>> the amount of
>>movement is restricted to the lash on each side of the key, but it
>>doesn't even need a thou to slowly rotate. just because it doesn't
>>/look/ like it's moving, doesn't mean it won't!
>
>
>
>
> Then explain why the exact same thing happens to Toyotas, Fords and other
> vehicles that turn the engine such as to LOOSEN the bolt.
>
> I have been unable to find any references to your alleged phenomenon in
> Google searches.
>
>
> My personal theory is that with heat and vibration, the bolt and its
> threads "settle in" and thus increase their static friction.
>
>

bolts can loosen on side loads - as is the case with l/h wheel nuts on
cars where r/h threads are used. or they can tighten - as is the case
with pedal spindles on bikes. bikes have r/h thread on the right and
l/h thread on the left to prevent loosening, and often these continue to
tighten with use. side loads cause what's called "precession" and that
works both ways.

we don't have much side load here, so the only movement is angular. an
example of angular tightening is the locking ring on a fixed gear bike.
it's l/h thread vs. the drive cog which is normal r/h thread. the
drive cog can move back & forth slightly in use [resistive braking] and
this tightens the locking ring. in fact, because soft alloy hubs are
used, it's not uncommon for the locking ring to strip after a time, even
though the initial tightening torque of the cog & ring are well within
normal spec.

regarding citations for the honda pulley bolt, i don't have anything
immediately to hand. you have to go back to basic engineering
principles. if you can accept that there is some angular lash in the
pulley, you can figure out the inertial predominance of that lash as the
crank rotates.

i absolutely agree, other factors such as rust do undoubtedly have a
significant impact on tightness of fasteners, but that's not the case
with my crx and messing about with the pulley bolt on two seperate
disassemblies on consecutive days with only one run in between.
[initially to replace the locked water pump and determine whether the
motor worked at all, and the second day, having decided that the motor
ran like a champ, deciding to re-do the job properly and put in a new
pump, not the junker i'd used before.]

i'll also say that having worked on a number of other "right way" motors
and loosened their pulley bolts as well, i've never come across anything
as tight as the honda bolt. the difficulty with an ordinary pulley bolt
is simply holding the wheel so the bolt can be undone. once the pulley
wheel is held, it's not that much of a problem. and you'll note that
most of them have locking washers under them [the honda doesn't]. the
starter motor trick is a great quick convenience if you don't want to
bother with a holding tool or have an impact driver. but even if the
motor turned the right way for the starter motor to try unscrewing this
bolt, i'm not sure it would work in this case. starter motor cranking
torque i believe to be in the range ~200 ft.lbs, [which /would/ shift an
unstuck bolt] but i think estimates of these honda bolts being stuck at
over 400 ft.lbs completely reasonable based on me needing to bounce my
full weight on an 18" [3/4"] breaker bar.

jim beam wrote:
> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> jim beam > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>> jim beam > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> in this instance, it /can/ tighten because of crank rotation
>>>>> direction. the pulley /is/ keyed as you say, but it still has a
>>>>> small degree
>>>>> of lash, and the pulley/bolt still have momentum. and crank
>>>>> rotation velocity spikes with each cylinder combustion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Once tightened to spec, that bolt does
>>>> not move.
>>>
>>> dude, it can and it does. that's why drive shaft nuts are peened -
>>> same thing. one will tighten, the other loosen.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you havre any references to this?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> the amount of
>>> movement is restricted to the lash on each side of the key, but it
>>> doesn't even need a thou to slowly rotate. just because it doesn't
>>> /look/ like it's moving, doesn't mean it won't!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Then explain why the exact same thing happens to Toyotas, Fords and
>> other vehicles that turn the engine such as to LOOSEN the bolt.
>>
>> I have been unable to find any references to your alleged phenomenon
>> in Google searches.
>>
>>
>> My personal theory is that with heat and vibration, the bolt and its
>> threads "settle in" and thus increase their static friction.
>>
>>
>
> bolts can loosen on side loads - as is the case with l/h wheel nuts on
> cars where r/h threads are used. or they can tighten - as is the case
> with pedal spindles on bikes. bikes have r/h thread on the right and
> l/h thread on the left to prevent loosening, and often these continue to
> tighten with use. side loads cause what's called "precession" and that
> works both ways.
>
> we don't have much side load here, so the only movement is angular. an
> example of angular tightening is the locking ring on a fixed gear bike.
> it's l/h thread vs. the drive cog which is normal r/h thread. the
> drive cog can move back & forth slightly in use [resistive braking] and
> this tightens the locking ring. in fact, because soft alloy hubs are
> used, it's not uncommon for the locking ring to strip after a time, even
> though the initial tightening torque of the cog & ring are well within
> normal spec.
>
> regarding citations for the honda pulley bolt, i don't have anything
> immediately to hand. you have to go back to basic engineering
> principles. if you can accept that there is some angular lash in the
> pulley, you can figure out the inertial predominance of that lash as the
> crank rotates.
>
> i absolutely agree, other factors such as rust do undoubtedly have a
> significant impact on tightness of fasteners, but that's not the case
> with my crx and messing about with the pulley bolt on two seperate
> disassemblies on consecutive days with only one run in between.
> [initially to replace the locked water pump and determine whether the
> motor worked at all, and the second day, having decided that the motor
> ran like a champ, deciding to re-do the job properly and put in a new
> pump, not the junker i'd used before.]
>
> i'll also say that having worked on a number of other "right way" motors
> and loosened their pulley bolts as well, i've never come across anything
> as tight as the honda bolt. the difficulty with an ordinary pulley bolt
> is simply holding the wheel so the bolt can be undone. once the pulley
> wheel is held, it's not that much of a problem. and you'll note that
> most of them have locking washers under them [the honda doesn't]. the
> starter motor trick is a great quick convenience if you don't want to
> bother with a holding tool or have an impact driver. but even if the
> motor turned the right way for the starter motor to try unscrewing this
> bolt, i'm not sure it would work in this case. starter motor cranking
> torque i believe to be in the range ~200 ft.lbs, [which /would/ shift an
> unstuck bolt] but i think estimates of these honda bolts being stuck at
> over 400 ft.lbs completely reasonable based on me needing to bounce my
> full weight on an 18" [3/4"] breaker bar.
>
Wow the replies are overwhelming. Thanks Dudes... Its like bing in Honda
knowledge heaven..