'89 CRX starts then stalls

See the three online OEM parts dealers listed near the top
of http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id9.html

"samjones" > wrote
> Could someone post a partnumber and suggested location to
> order a main
> relay for my 88 crx.
>
>
> <<<
> if the relay has not before been replaced, it's #1
> candidate. happens
> to all civics/crx's this vintage. personally, i replace
> the relay,
> then
> resolder the old one and toss it in the trunk as a spare.
> hopefully,
> it'll stay there unused for another 10+ years.
>>>>
>

"ThomasE" > wrote in
lkaboutautos.com:

> Thanks Tegger. Yes, I did take some pictures but they may not be that
> helpful as advice. I can send them to you though if you’re interested.


Always. Just unmunge my address. I can add them to the Main Relay page.


> I wish I had seen your pictures earlier. When I first tried to locate
> the main relay based on the honda shop manual, I found some device
> that looked like a relay right above the hood latch.



The Honda technical drawings, while of excellent quality (which, being
involved in technical illustration myself, is one reason I love Honda),
still cannot accurately depict locations in 3D.



> Thinking that
> that was the main relay, I removed it, at which point I saw that it
> had only 4 terminals so it did not match the honda manual description.
> So then I started looking again and it took me at least 10” to just
> see the tip of the relay from underneath the dashboard.
> The car has now started 8 times without incident since the resoldering
> so I hope that was it.
>


I hope so too. It's an annoying problem, and one that just about every EFI
Honda ever built eventually suffers.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Darn! Still problems

I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls. Finally
started on the 4th try.

So what else can it be?

Does the actual relay go bad often? That is, do the relay contacts fail or
is it pretty much the soldering that fails. I think it is very unlikely
that my new solder is bad in exactly the same way as the old one. My wife
was the one who experienced the malfunction this time so I was not present
to hear if at least the fuel pump was getting primed for 2 seconds when the
ignition was turned on.

I’m reluctant to blame the fuel pump because the fuel pump does obviously
start at least for a short while with every starting attempt and that
builds enough fuel pressure to get the engine going for a second or so. On
the other hand if it is the relay why would it make contact initially and
then fail? Perhaps, just perhaps, the ignition signal that tells the relay
to close is stronger than the signal it is given by the ECU? That would
explain it, ie. the ignition signal is strong enough to make the relay
close with a good contact but then the let’s say weaker ECU signal fails
to maintain the relay closed (or at least closed with enough pressure for
a borderline relay contact to work) ??

I basically see 3 options:
1. Wait for the problem to reappear long enough that I can get a voltmeter
hooked up to the fuel pump during the ignition cycle to do a relay vs fuel
pump differential diagnosis.
2. Go buy main relay and change it
3. Go buy fuel pump and change it

Any ideas?

ThomasE wrote:
> Darn! Still problems
>
> I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
> behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls. Finally
> started on the 4th try.
>
> So what else can it be?
>
> Does the actual relay go bad often? That is, do the relay contacts fail or
> is it pretty much the soldering that fails. I think it is very unlikely
> that my new solder is bad in exactly the same way as the old one. My wife
> was the one who experienced the malfunction this time so I was not present
> to hear if at least the fuel pump was getting primed for 2 seconds when the
> ignition was turned on.
>
> I’m reluctant to blame the fuel pump because the fuel pump does obviously
> start at least for a short while with every starting attempt and that
> builds enough fuel pressure to get the engine going for a second or so. On
> the other hand if it is the relay why would it make contact initially and
> then fail? Perhaps, just perhaps, the ignition signal that tells the relay
> to close is stronger than the signal it is given by the ECU? That would
> explain it, ie. the ignition signal is strong enough to make the relay
> close with a good contact but then the let’s say weaker ECU signal fails
> to maintain the relay closed (or at least closed with enough pressure for
> a borderline relay contact to work) ??
>
> I basically see 3 options:
> 1. Wait for the problem to reappear long enough that I can get a voltmeter
> hooked up to the fuel pump during the ignition cycle to do a relay vs fuel
> pump differential diagnosis.
> 2. Go buy main relay and change it
> 3. Go buy fuel pump and change it
>
> Any ideas?
>
do you get a code? in my experience, the relay derived no-start
condition is always accompanied by a code 16.

No codes now. My wife did not check for codes when it last happened
tonight. But from what I recall the '89 CRX would store a code 16 between
starts until the code is cleared right?

ThomasE wrote:
> No codes now. My wife did not check for codes when it last happened
> tonight. But from what I recall the '89 CRX would store a code 16 between
> starts until the code is cleared right?
>
yes, it'll be there for at least 3 starts.

regarding resoldering, i used a 60W hakko soldering iron with a large
thermal inertia for mine because some parts of the relay are large,
copper and suck heat faster than a normal low wattage electrical iron
can pump it in. i'm not suggesting you didn't do a bad job when
resoldering yours, but i /do/ suggest that it's hard to do a /good/ job!

ThomasE wrote:
> Darn! Still problems
>
> I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
> behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls. Finally
> started on the 4th try.
>

-----------------------------------

Honda recall a billion Ignition Switches about 8 years after yours went
on the road. Might be a clue.

Has it ever stalled while it was running, or only while starting?

I diagnose a bad MAIN RELAY this way: Turn the switch to II. If you
don't hear the fuel pump run for 3 seconds, smack the dash with your
fist (or slam the driver's door) and if the relay runs, you know you've
got the bad solder joints. Knowing you can smack the dash to make the
fuel pump spin will also prevent you from being stranded at the 7-Eleven
on a warm day. It's much simpler than filling the car with PARTY ICE to
chill the relay (which would work, BTW). If your fuel pump is only
running on position III, it's likely the switch, as I suggested a few
days ago.

Here's the Civic version of the recall:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/tsb/civic/x02-031e.pdf

'Curly'

motsco_ wrote:
> ThomasE wrote:
>> Darn! Still problems
>>
>> I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
>> behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls.
>> Finally
>> started on the 4th try.
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> Honda recall a billion Ignition Switches about 8 years after yours went
> on the road. Might be a clue.
>
> Has it ever stalled while it was running, or only while starting?
>
> I diagnose a bad MAIN RELAY this way: Turn the switch to II. If you
> don't hear the fuel pump run for 3 seconds, smack the dash with your
> fist (or slam the driver's door) and if the relay runs, you know you've
> got the bad solder joints. Knowing you can smack the dash to make the
> fuel pump spin will also prevent you from being stranded at the 7-Eleven
> on a warm day. It's much simpler than filling the car with PARTY ICE to
> chill the relay (which would work, BTW). If your fuel pump is only
> running on position III, it's likely the switch, as I suggested a few
> days ago.
>
> Here's the Civic version of the recall:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/tsb/civic/x02-031e.pdf
>
> 'Curly'
--------------------------------

This (somewhat related) page about Civic wiring might help with your
diagnosis, if your fusebox is at all similar:

http://www.geocities.com/ng_randolph...ivic_info.html

'Curly'

"ThomasE" > wrote in
lkaboutautos.com:

> Darn! Still problems
>
> I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
> behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls.
> Finally started on the 4th try.
>
> So what else can it be?
>
> Does the actual relay go bad often? That is, do the relay contacts
> fail or is it pretty much the soldering that fails.



You raise a good point. I do not know the answer to that question.



> I think it is very
> unlikely that my new solder is bad in exactly the same way as the old
> one. My wife was the one who experienced the malfunction this time so
> I was not present to hear if at least the fuel pump was getting primed
> for 2 seconds when the ignition was turned on.
>




You need to use the clicks of the relay to tell if it's bad. When the relay
goes bad, one or more of the clicks is always missing, so it's a handy
diagnstics tool. This is mentioned quite a number of times in the FAQ pages
on the subject.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...html#mainrelay

Every single time you (or another driver) start the car, place your hand on
the relay to feel the clicks as they happen. If one of the clicks is
missing during the instances when the car stalls, the relay is not actually
fixed.

In your case, I suspect the third click is missing. That's the one which
happens the instant you turn the key to "III". This third click can be hard
to hear on account of it occurring the instant the starter kicks in.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

It so happens that I used the same exact soldering iron (the only one I
got). Probably unlikely that resoldering would leave the relay contacts in
the same borderline situation (sometimes working sometimes not).