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How to balance FFB



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 12th 12, 09:25 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

FolkGT:
>Tony R:
>>FolkGT:
>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might
>>> mean "linear", which is desirable.

>>
>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.
>>
>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how
>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with brake
>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems pretty
>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around
>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone though.

>
> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity =
> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is too
> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.


Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to see what
is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider, you'll get
"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what this
slider does.
It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with FFB,
anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which behaves
very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack of
sensitivity.
50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less linear.

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  #12  
Old January 12th 12, 06:47 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
FolkGT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default How to balance FFB

On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:25:41 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"
> wrote:

>FolkGT:
>>Tony R:
>>>FolkGT:
>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might
>>>> mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>
>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.
>>>
>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how
>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with brake
>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems pretty
>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around
>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone though.

>>
>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity =
>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is too
>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.

>
> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to see what
>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider, you'll get
>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what this
>slider does.
> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with FFB,
>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which behaves
>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack of
>sensitivity.
> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less linear.


Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default 50%?

Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would turn up
the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and just
muddle about on your own.

You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked some
other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider at
something other than 50% is just a compensation.
  #13  
Old January 12th 12, 07:22 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

FolkGT:
>Mario Petrinovic:
>>FolkGT:
>>>Tony R:
>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might
>>>>> mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>>
>>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.
>>>>
>>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how
>>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with brake
>>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems pretty
>>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around
>>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone
>>>>though.
>>>
>>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity =
>>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is too
>>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.

>>
>> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to see
>> what
>>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider, you'll
>>get
>>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what this
>>slider does.
>> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with FFB,
>>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which behaves
>>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack of
>>sensitivity.
>> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less linear.

>
> Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default 50%?
>
> Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would turn up
> the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and just
> muddle about on your own.
>
> You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked some
> other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider at
> something other than 50% is just a compensation.


You guys are right, thanks. Steering wheel on the "Options" screen
clearly shows that you are right, thanks.
But, this isn't that easy. 100% drive so beautifully, and this is
the ultimate judge. But, thanks, you are right, somewhere else is the
problem.
Well, I already checked absolutely everything, and the only thing
that is left is the calibration process, which I started to fiddle with.
Here somewhere I must be getting slack.
Thanks again, : ).

  #14  
Old January 13th 12, 01:41 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

"Mario Petrinovic" > wrote in message
...
> FolkGT:
>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>FolkGT:
>>>>Tony R:
>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50% might
>>>>>> mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>>>
>>>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.
>>>>>
>>>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how
>>>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with brake
>>>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems pretty
>>>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around
>>>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone
>>>>>though.
>>>>
>>>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity =
>>>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is too
>>>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.
>>>
>>> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to see
>>> what
>>>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider, you'll
>>>get
>>>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what this
>>>slider does.
>>> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with FFB,
>>>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which behaves
>>>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack of
>>>sensitivity.
>>> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less linear.

>>
>> Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default 50%?
>>
>> Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would turn
>> up
>> the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and just
>> muddle about on your own.
>>
>> You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked some
>> other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider at
>> something other than 50% is just a compensation.

>
> You guys are right, thanks. Steering wheel on the "Options" screen
> clearly shows that you are right, thanks.
> But, this isn't that easy. 100% drive so beautifully, and this is
> the ultimate judge. But, thanks, you are right, somewhere else is the
> problem.
> Well, I already checked absolutely everything, and the only thing
> that is left is the calibration process, which I started to fiddle with.
> Here somewhere I must be getting slack.
> Thanks again, : ).


Ok, I found it. With calibration everything is ok, calibration is
simple process, and it doesn't affect FFB significantly (thanks God).
Regarding removing slack, I did the same like when I've put Overall
at 143%, only this time I left Overall (O) at 100%, and lowered Spring (S),
Damper (D) and Centering Spring (CS) equally. I tested a lot today, so I am
too tired to find "the right" value for S, D and CS today (I'll resume
tomorow). It is somewhere between 58 and 70%. I tested 50-56%, and tried
57%, and it is above those. It isn't 57%, so the difference between O and
S/D/CS isn't the same like before, but it is close.
Regarding how this behaves (so far), excelently. I am more than
pleased. It behaves just like it should.

  #15  
Old January 13th 12, 04:14 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

Mario Petrinovic:
>Mario Petrinovic:
>> FolkGT:
>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>Tony R:
>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50%
>>>>>>> might mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below logarithmic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of how
>>>>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with
>>>>>>brake
>>>>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems
>>>>>>pretty
>>>>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive around
>>>>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone
>>>>>>though.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity =
>>>>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is too
>>>>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to see
>>>> what
>>>>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider, you'll
>>>>get
>>>>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what this
>>>>slider does.
>>>> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with FFB,
>>>>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which
>>>>behaves
>>>>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack of
>>>>sensitivity.
>>>> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less linear.
>>>
>>> Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default 50%?
>>>
>>> Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would turn
>>> up
>>> the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and just
>>> muddle about on your own.
>>>
>>> You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked some
>>> other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider at
>>> something other than 50% is just a compensation.

>>
>> You guys are right, thanks. Steering wheel on the "Options" screen
>> clearly shows that you are right, thanks.
>> But, this isn't that easy. 100% drive so beautifully, and this is
>> the ultimate judge. But, thanks, you are right, somewhere else is the
>> problem.
>> Well, I already checked absolutely everything, and the only thing
>> that is left is the calibration process, which I started to fiddle with.
>> Here somewhere I must be getting slack.
>> Thanks again, : ).

>
> Ok, I found it. With calibration everything is ok, calibration is
> simple process, and it doesn't affect FFB significantly (thanks God).
> Regarding removing slack, I did the same like when I've put Overall
> at 143%, only this time I left Overall (O) at 100%, and lowered Spring
> (S),
> Damper (D) and Centering Spring (CS) equally. I tested a lot today, so I
> am
> too tired to find "the right" value for S, D and CS today (I'll resume
> tomorow). It is somewhere between 58 and 70%. I tested 50-56%, and tried
> 57%, and it is above those. It isn't 57%, so the difference between O and
> S/D/CS isn't the same like before, but it is close.
> Regarding how this behaves (so far), excelently. I am more than
> pleased. It behaves just like it should.


Oops, it is 54%, maybe even less (who knows, it could be 50%),
meintenance disturbed testing. It isn't more.

  #16  
Old January 15th 12, 08:19 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

Mario Petrinovic:
> Mario Petrinovic:
>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>> FolkGT:
>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>Tony R:
>>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>>>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50%
>>>>>>>> might mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below
>>>>>>>logarithmic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of
>>>>>>>how
>>>>>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with
>>>>>>>brake
>>>>>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems
>>>>>>>pretty
>>>>>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive
>>>>>>>around
>>>>>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone
>>>>>>>though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity =
>>>>>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is too
>>>>>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to see
>>>>> what
>>>>>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider,
>>>>>you'll get
>>>>>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what this
>>>>>slider does.
>>>>> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with FFB,
>>>>>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which
>>>>>behaves
>>>>>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack of
>>>>>sensitivity.
>>>>> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less linear.
>>>>
>>>> Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default 50%?
>>>>
>>>> Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would turn
>>>> up
>>>> the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and just
>>>> muddle about on your own.
>>>>
>>>> You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked some
>>>> other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider at
>>>> something other than 50% is just a compensation.
>>>
>>> You guys are right, thanks. Steering wheel on the "Options"
>>> screen
>>> clearly shows that you are right, thanks.
>>> But, this isn't that easy. 100% drive so beautifully, and this is
>>> the ultimate judge. But, thanks, you are right, somewhere else is the
>>> problem.
>>> Well, I already checked absolutely everything, and the only thing
>>> that is left is the calibration process, which I started to fiddle with.
>>> Here somewhere I must be getting slack.
>>> Thanks again, : ).

>>
>> Ok, I found it. With calibration everything is ok, calibration is
>> simple process, and it doesn't affect FFB significantly (thanks God).
>> Regarding removing slack, I did the same like when I've put
>> Overall
>> at 143%, only this time I left Overall (O) at 100%, and lowered Spring
>> (S),
>> Damper (D) and Centering Spring (CS) equally. I tested a lot today, so I
>> am
>> too tired to find "the right" value for S, D and CS today (I'll resume
>> tomorow). It is somewhere between 58 and 70%. I tested 50-56%, and tried
>> 57%, and it is above those. It isn't 57%, so the difference between O and
>> S/D/CS isn't the same like before, but it is close.
>> Regarding how this behaves (so far), excelently. I am more than
>> pleased. It behaves just like it should.

>
> Oops, it is 54%, maybe even less (who knows, it could be 50%),
> meintenance disturbed testing. It isn't more.


Ok, I am having some progress.
Yes, it should be 50%. Centering Spring should be 50% (and it is
responsible for slack). Spring and Damper is per individual preference, as
long as they are equal. One can even run them at 0% if he wants "pure"
forces.
This is for Overall = 100% and natural FOV. I don't know if
Centering Spring should be other than 50% if Overall isn't 100% and FOV
isn't natural. Maybe I'll test this some day.

  #17  
Old January 16th 12, 02:07 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

Mario Petrinovic:
> Mario Petrinovic:
>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>> FolkGT:
>>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>Tony R:
>>>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>>>>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50%
>>>>>>>>> might mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below
>>>>>>>>logarithmic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of
>>>>>>>>how
>>>>>>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with
>>>>>>>>brake
>>>>>>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems
>>>>>>>>pretty
>>>>>>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive
>>>>>>>>around
>>>>>>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone
>>>>>>>>though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity =
>>>>>>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is too
>>>>>>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to
>>>>>> see what
>>>>>>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider,
>>>>>>you'll get
>>>>>>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what
>>>>>>this slider does.
>>>>>> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with FFB,
>>>>>>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which
>>>>>>behaves
>>>>>>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack
>>>>>>of sensitivity.
>>>>>> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less
>>>>>> linear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default
>>>>> 50%?
>>>>>
>>>>> Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would
>>>>> turn up
>>>>> the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and just
>>>>> muddle about on your own.
>>>>>
>>>>> You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked some
>>>>> other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider at
>>>>> something other than 50% is just a compensation.
>>>>
>>>> You guys are right, thanks. Steering wheel on the "Options"
>>>> screen clearly shows that you are right, thanks.
>>>> But, this isn't that easy. 100% drive so beautifully, and this
>>>> is
>>>> the ultimate judge. But, thanks, you are right, somewhere else is the
>>>> problem.
>>>> Well, I already checked absolutely everything, and the only
>>>> thing
>>>> that is left is the calibration process, which I started to fiddle
>>>> with. Here somewhere I must be getting slack.
>>>> Thanks again, : ).
>>>
>>> Ok, I found it. With calibration everything is ok, calibration is
>>> simple process, and it doesn't affect FFB significantly (thanks God).
>>> Regarding removing slack, I did the same like when I've put
>>> Overall
>>> at 143%, only this time I left Overall (O) at 100%, and lowered Spring
>>> (S),
>>> Damper (D) and Centering Spring (CS) equally. I tested a lot today, so I
>>> am
>>> too tired to find "the right" value for S, D and CS today (I'll resume
>>> tomorow). It is somewhere between 58 and 70%. I tested 50-56%, and tried
>>> 57%, and it is above those. It isn't 57%, so the difference between O
>>> and S/D/CS isn't the same like before, but it is close.
>>> Regarding how this behaves (so far), excelently. I am more than
>>> pleased. It behaves just like it should.

>>
>> Oops, it is 54%, maybe even less (who knows, it could be 50%),
>> meintenance disturbed testing. It isn't more.

>
> Ok, I am having some progress.
> Yes, it should be 50%. Centering Spring should be 50% (and it is
> responsible for slack). Spring and Damper is per individual preference, as
> long as they are equal. One can even run them at 0% if he wants "pure"
> forces.
> This is for Overall = 100% and natural FOV. I don't know if
> Centering Spring should be other than 50% if Overall isn't 100% and FOV
> isn't natural. Maybe I'll test this some day.


Hm, it turned out that it isn't just any Spring and Damper (equal)
the best. Too low, too spring, too high, too dampy. It turned out that the
best is 71%. Well, this isn't good. Why? Because if I put 100/71/71/50, then
50 is 71% of 71, which means that Spring and Damper are equaly distanced
from Overall, as Centering Spring is from Sping and Damper. Not good. Well,
too late today, I'll have to resolve this puzzle some other day, : ).

  #18  
Old January 16th 12, 10:29 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

Mario Petrinovic:
> Mario Petrinovic:
>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>> FolkGT:
>>>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>>Tony R:
>>>>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>>>>>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50%
>>>>>>>>>> might mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below
>>>>>>>>>logarithmic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of
>>>>>>>>>how
>>>>>>>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with
>>>>>>>>>brake
>>>>>>>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems
>>>>>>>>>pretty
>>>>>>>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive
>>>>>>>>>around
>>>>>>>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone
>>>>>>>>>though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity
>>>>>>>> =
>>>>>>>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is
>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the opposite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to
>>>>>>> see what
>>>>>>>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider,
>>>>>>>you'll get
>>>>>>>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what
>>>>>>>this slider does.
>>>>>>> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with FFB,
>>>>>>>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which
>>>>>>>behaves
>>>>>>>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack
>>>>>>>of sensitivity.
>>>>>>> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less
>>>>>>> linear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default
>>>>>> 50%?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would
>>>>>> turn up
>>>>>> the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and just
>>>>>> muddle about on your own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked some
>>>>>> other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider
>>>>>> at something other than 50% is just a compensation.
>>>>>
>>>>> You guys are right, thanks. Steering wheel on the "Options"
>>>>> screen clearly shows that you are right, thanks.
>>>>> But, this isn't that easy. 100% drive so beautifully, and this
>>>>> is
>>>>> the ultimate judge. But, thanks, you are right, somewhere else is the
>>>>> problem.
>>>>> Well, I already checked absolutely everything, and the only
>>>>> thing
>>>>> that is left is the calibration process, which I started to fiddle
>>>>> with. Here somewhere I must be getting slack.
>>>>> Thanks again, : ).
>>>>
>>>> Ok, I found it. With calibration everything is ok, calibration
>>>> is
>>>> simple process, and it doesn't affect FFB significantly (thanks God).
>>>> Regarding removing slack, I did the same like when I've put
>>>> Overall
>>>> at 143%, only this time I left Overall (O) at 100%, and lowered Spring
>>>> (S),
>>>> Damper (D) and Centering Spring (CS) equally. I tested a lot today, so
>>>> I am
>>>> too tired to find "the right" value for S, D and CS today (I'll resume
>>>> tomorow). It is somewhere between 58 and 70%. I tested 50-56%, and
>>>> tried
>>>> 57%, and it is above those. It isn't 57%, so the difference between O
>>>> and S/D/CS isn't the same like before, but it is close.
>>>> Regarding how this behaves (so far), excelently. I am more than
>>>> pleased. It behaves just like it should.
>>>
>>> Oops, it is 54%, maybe even less (who knows, it could be 50%),
>>> meintenance disturbed testing. It isn't more.

>>
>> Ok, I am having some progress.
>> Yes, it should be 50%. Centering Spring should be 50% (and it is
>> responsible for slack). Spring and Damper is per individual preference,
>> as
>> long as they are equal. One can even run them at 0% if he wants "pure"
>> forces.
>> This is for Overall = 100% and natural FOV. I don't know if
>> Centering Spring should be other than 50% if Overall isn't 100% and FOV
>> isn't natural. Maybe I'll test this some day.

>
> Hm, it turned out that it isn't just any Spring and Damper (equal)
> the best. Too low, too spring, too high, too dampy. It turned out that the
> best is 71%. Well, this isn't good. Why? Because if I put 100/71/71/50,
> then
> 50 is 71% of 71, which means that Spring and Damper are equaly distanced
> from Overall, as Centering Spring is from Sping and Damper. Not good.
> Well,
> too late today, I'll have to resolve this puzzle some other day, : ).


A new day, : ).
Since 100/100/100/100 works well if sensitivity is 100%, I wouldn't
be surprised if all this doesn't have something with the position of
sensitivity.

  #19  
Old January 16th 12, 02:53 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

Mario Petrinovic:
> Mario Petrinovic:
>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>> FolkGT:
>>>>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>>>Tony R:
>>>>>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>>>>>>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50%
>>>>>>>>>>> might mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below
>>>>>>>>>>logarithmic.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph of
>>>>>>>>>>how
>>>>>>>>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with
>>>>>>>>>>brake
>>>>>>>>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems
>>>>>>>>>>pretty
>>>>>>>>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive
>>>>>>>>>>around
>>>>>>>>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any deadzone
>>>>>>>>>>though.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering sensitivity
>>>>>>>>> =
>>>>>>>>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is
>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the
>>>>>>>>> opposite.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to
>>>>>>>> see what
>>>>>>>>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider,
>>>>>>>>you'll get
>>>>>>>>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what
>>>>>>>>this slider does.
>>>>>>>> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with
>>>>>>>> FFB,
>>>>>>>>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which
>>>>>>>>behaves
>>>>>>>>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a lack
>>>>>>>>of sensitivity.
>>>>>>>> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less
>>>>>>>> linear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default
>>>>>>> 50%?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would
>>>>>>> turn up
>>>>>>> the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and just
>>>>>>> muddle about on your own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider
>>>>>>> at something other than 50% is just a compensation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You guys are right, thanks. Steering wheel on the "Options"
>>>>>> screen clearly shows that you are right, thanks.
>>>>>> But, this isn't that easy. 100% drive so beautifully, and this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> the ultimate judge. But, thanks, you are right, somewhere else is the
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>> Well, I already checked absolutely everything, and the only
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>> that is left is the calibration process, which I started to fiddle
>>>>>> with. Here somewhere I must be getting slack.
>>>>>> Thanks again, : ).
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I found it. With calibration everything is ok, calibration
>>>>> is
>>>>> simple process, and it doesn't affect FFB significantly (thanks God).
>>>>> Regarding removing slack, I did the same like when I've put
>>>>> Overall
>>>>> at 143%, only this time I left Overall (O) at 100%, and lowered Spring
>>>>> (S),
>>>>> Damper (D) and Centering Spring (CS) equally. I tested a lot today, so
>>>>> I am
>>>>> too tired to find "the right" value for S, D and CS today (I'll resume
>>>>> tomorow). It is somewhere between 58 and 70%. I tested 50-56%, and
>>>>> tried
>>>>> 57%, and it is above those. It isn't 57%, so the difference between O
>>>>> and S/D/CS isn't the same like before, but it is close.
>>>>> Regarding how this behaves (so far), excelently. I am more than
>>>>> pleased. It behaves just like it should.
>>>>
>>>> Oops, it is 54%, maybe even less (who knows, it could be 50%),
>>>> meintenance disturbed testing. It isn't more.
>>>
>>> Ok, I am having some progress.
>>> Yes, it should be 50%. Centering Spring should be 50% (and it is
>>> responsible for slack). Spring and Damper is per individual preference,
>>> as
>>> long as they are equal. One can even run them at 0% if he wants "pure"
>>> forces.
>>> This is for Overall = 100% and natural FOV. I don't know if
>>> Centering Spring should be other than 50% if Overall isn't 100% and FOV
>>> isn't natural. Maybe I'll test this some day.

>>
>> Hm, it turned out that it isn't just any Spring and Damper (equal)
>> the best. Too low, too spring, too high, too dampy. It turned out that
>> the
>> best is 71%. Well, this isn't good. Why? Because if I put 100/71/71/50,
>> then
>> 50 is 71% of 71, which means that Spring and Damper are equaly distanced
>> from Overall, as Centering Spring is from Sping and Damper. Not good.
>> Well,
>> too late today, I'll have to resolve this puzzle some other day, : ).

>
> A new day, : ).
> Since 100/100/100/100 works well if sensitivity is 100%, I wouldn't
> be surprised if all this doesn't have something with the position of
> sensitivity.


Hm, Spring and Damper at 71% work well with Centering Spring at
100%. I'll see if there is more to it.

  #20  
Old January 16th 12, 05:11 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default How to balance FFB

Mario Petrinovic:
> Mario Petrinovic:
>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>> Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>>> FolkGT:
>>>>>>>>Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>>>>Tony R:
>>>>>>>>>>>FolkGT:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm hesitant to make any
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes from the default of 50%, because I'm concerned that 50%
>>>>>>>>>>>> might mean "linear", which is desirable.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>50% is indeed linear, above this is exponential and below
>>>>>>>>>>>logarithmic.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I seem to recall earlier profilers actually displayed the graph
>>>>>>>>>>>of how
>>>>>>>>>>>the controller profile was being mapped. Non linear can help with
>>>>>>>>>>>brake
>>>>>>>>>>>pedal mappings (iRacing include this option in sim) linear seems
>>>>>>>>>>>pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>good for steering though. 100% is making it much more sensitive
>>>>>>>>>>>around
>>>>>>>>>>>the centre, could be why it feels like it is removing any
>>>>>>>>>>>deadzone though.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is my understanding. A value of 50% for steering
>>>>>>>>>> sensitivity =
>>>>>>>>>> linear response. Reducing the value would cure steering that is
>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>> twitchy around the center, and increasing it would do the
>>>>>>>>>> opposite.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, I just tested it. With Ford Falcon it is very easy to
>>>>>>>>> see what
>>>>>>>>>is going on. BTW, if you click with right mouse button on slider,
>>>>>>>>>you'll get
>>>>>>>>>"What's this" box. Clicking on it, you'll get explaination of what
>>>>>>>>>this slider does.
>>>>>>>>> It is very simple, with 100% you get direct contact with
>>>>>>>>> FFB,
>>>>>>>>>anything less loses contact with FFB, and introduces slack, which
>>>>>>>>>behaves
>>>>>>>>>very much like a dead zone, only it isn't dead zone, but just a
>>>>>>>>>lack of sensitivity.
>>>>>>>>> 50% isn't linear, 100% is linear, anything else is less
>>>>>>>>> linear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then you have to ask yourself... why did Logitech make the default
>>>>>>>> 50%?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two people have told you that 50% = linear. A Google search would
>>>>>>>> turn up
>>>>>>>> the same answer. You can go with that, or ignore the facts and
>>>>>>>> just muddle about on your own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should certainly consider the possibility that you've jacked
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> other setting up so much that what you're "feeling" with the slider
>>>>>>>> at something other than 50% is just a compensation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You guys are right, thanks. Steering wheel on the "Options"
>>>>>>> screen clearly shows that you are right, thanks.
>>>>>>> But, this isn't that easy. 100% drive so beautifully, and
>>>>>>> this is
>>>>>>> the ultimate judge. But, thanks, you are right, somewhere else is
>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>> Well, I already checked absolutely everything, and the only
>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>> that is left is the calibration process, which I started to fiddle
>>>>>>> with. Here somewhere I must be getting slack.
>>>>>>> Thanks again, : ).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok, I found it. With calibration everything is ok, calibration
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> simple process, and it doesn't affect FFB significantly (thanks God).
>>>>>> Regarding removing slack, I did the same like when I've put
>>>>>> Overall
>>>>>> at 143%, only this time I left Overall (O) at 100%, and lowered
>>>>>> Spring (S),
>>>>>> Damper (D) and Centering Spring (CS) equally. I tested a lot today,
>>>>>> so I am
>>>>>> too tired to find "the right" value for S, D and CS today (I'll
>>>>>> resume
>>>>>> tomorow). It is somewhere between 58 and 70%. I tested 50-56%, and
>>>>>> tried
>>>>>> 57%, and it is above those. It isn't 57%, so the difference between O
>>>>>> and S/D/CS isn't the same like before, but it is close.
>>>>>> Regarding how this behaves (so far), excelently. I am more
>>>>>> than pleased. It behaves just like it should.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oops, it is 54%, maybe even less (who knows, it could be 50%),
>>>>> meintenance disturbed testing. It isn't more.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, I am having some progress.
>>>> Yes, it should be 50%. Centering Spring should be 50% (and it is
>>>> responsible for slack). Spring and Damper is per individual preference,
>>>> as
>>>> long as they are equal. One can even run them at 0% if he wants "pure"
>>>> forces.
>>>> This is for Overall = 100% and natural FOV. I don't know if
>>>> Centering Spring should be other than 50% if Overall isn't 100% and FOV
>>>> isn't natural. Maybe I'll test this some day.
>>>
>>> Hm, it turned out that it isn't just any Spring and Damper
>>> (equal)
>>> the best. Too low, too spring, too high, too dampy. It turned out that
>>> the
>>> best is 71%. Well, this isn't good. Why? Because if I put 100/71/71/50,
>>> then
>>> 50 is 71% of 71, which means that Spring and Damper are equaly distanced
>>> from Overall, as Centering Spring is from Sping and Damper. Not good.
>>> Well, too late today, I'll have to resolve this puzzle some other day,
>>> : ).

>>
>> A new day, : ).
>> Since 100/100/100/100 works well if sensitivity is 100%, I
>> wouldn't
>> be surprised if all this doesn't have something with the position of
>> sensitivity.

>
> Hm, Spring and Damper at 71% work well with Centering Spring at
> 100%. I'll see if there is more to it.


Hm, interestingly, 143 to 100 is in similar correlation as 71 to 50,
or as 100 to 71.

 




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