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#11
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FFB
Pat Dotson:
>I tried your 139/139/139/100 settings with various in-game FFB > strengths. The wheel (G25) was clipping constantly with anything but > an in-game setting of around 1 or 2. > > If it's damping that you want, you can add that with the new slider > that iRacing added. That still doesn't change what clipping is, and > how you have to set all the parameters to avoid it. There can be no > doubt, especially with your earliest recommendation of using in-game > strength of 40, that your settings will clip FFB effects continually > in corners. > > BTW, by setting your overall strength to 139%, what you are doing is > amplifying the smallest FFB signals. The result is less of the 'dead > zone' that people used to complain about with the G25's. Actually at > 139%, you've gone far past accounting for the dead zone, and have > introduced instability into the feedback whenever the force direction > is reversed. > > Also, my FOV is set to match my screen size and distance to my eyes so > that I get a perspective close to reality. If you look back through > iRacing forums and even here on RAS, you'll see that I was an early > proponent of this. Well, thanks for trying it out. What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it. This clipping definitely doesn't affect my FFB, neither in corners, or anywhere else. I also very well know what you say about so called "dead zone", and yes rising up things eliminates this. You have to rise up past that "dead zone" and to match the strength of your arms. People are so misunderstanding things. I mean, look at settings 139/139/139/139. Well, if I am a manufacturer of FFB wheels, this is how I would design things. And not to say that the default is 100/100/100/100, and the right is 100/0/0/100. Please. Also, I am using ALL of the in-game, you are using what, some minicular part of FFB. Man, this just doesn't have a sense, it is so obvious. So obvious. This all wouldn't mean much, if I really don't feel exactly how would I expect to feel, both, driving my settings, and driving your settings. Your settings for me are just out of this world. It really is so untrue, so erratic, that you really need to use low FFB to manage this. I mean, even if iRacing recommended 20%, nobody used that much, simply because they couldn't handle it. I am handling my way, whichever setting you want. I can drive with 150/150/150/150, and in-game all the way up, the only problem is, just like you would EXPECT, it is too strong for my arms. The key is to adjust the hight of screen, and cockpitLookDeadZone, where the hight of screen is by far the most important thing, and you have to adjust it to 4 decimal places. Mario |
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#12
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FFB
> * * * * What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW
> what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it. What is it that you feel that you are calling clipping? Please describe it? Clipping is actually a lack of feel. If the wheel is clipping, there will be extended periods of time where the wheel is doing nothing but applying a constant force in one directly. You will feel nothing but this constant force. So, if there is some other "spikyness" that you are feeling, that is not clipping. |
#13
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FFB
Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much
have to contribute. Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation. What I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the expense of the larger forces being clipped. As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value. In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few cycles. Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the "spikyness"). In a dynamic system, where the set point is always changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior. I believe this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set point. As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't have that wheel. And again, this is how I interpreted his posts. YMMV. I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB. The only possible connection I could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right. But that is just a guess on my part. If there is a correlation between the actual forces output by the wheel and FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and why the settings require such precision. |
#14
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Ken MacKay:
> Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much > have to contribute. > > Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation. What > I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like > hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle > forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so > he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the > expense of the larger forces being clipped. > > As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying > that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because > without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value. > In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set > point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little > damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then > undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few > cycles. Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and > keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the > "spikyness"). In a dynamic system, where the set point is always > changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior. I believe > this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On > the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set > point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be > reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set > point. Oh, thanks Ken. You obviously understand very well those things, and plus you have experience with it. I also have some experience at my work. I was writing exactly what you wrote, in iRacing forum, and boy, the reception I got, BOTH from common laymen, and from iRacing. I mean, at least iRacing SHOULD know something about it. I mean, maybe iRacing understands this, they never said that they excluded me because of what I wrote, but because of complaining of other people. This way or that way, this simply isn't fair. I mean, you wrote everything, and this cannot be written better. Who is able to understand it, he will understand. The problem are some missconceptions that are preveiling in simracing community. The missconceptions aren't that bad, if they weren't backed up by Papyrus/iRacing themselves. The most popular missconception is that damper forces are canned. Of course they are canned, but without them FFB forces DON'T work as intended. Simple as that. Both, Papyrus and iRacing INTENTIONALLY dissabled damper. There is NO sense in this. Even if people who are using damper are wrong (of course, they aren't), I mean, they have the right to use it, if they want it. And then come some "purists" who want "pure" forces. Lol, I mean... > As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't > have that wheel. And again, this is how I interpreted his posts. > YMMV. > > I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and > cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB. The only possible connection I > could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion > correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces > coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right. But that > is just a guess on my part. If there is a correlation between the > actual forces output by the wheel and FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone > settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and > why the settings require such precision. The incorrect FOV beahves like this: Too low FOV, picture is vertically compressed, and horizontally stretched. Too high FOV, is the other way around. The arch you are seeing on your screen doesn't corespondence to the forces you feel through wheel. If too low FOV, you have too sharp corners, and other way around. But FOV isn't such a problem. CockiptLookDeadZone is some kind of lag menagement. I am still testing it, but it looks like this should be something like 0.100000. iRacing puts this to 0.050000. Of course that lag affects FFB very much. But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB. Mario |
#15
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FFB
Pat Dotson:
> What can I say, there is something wrong here. I definitely KNOW > what clipping is, and definitely feel it, there is no doubt about it. What is it that you feel that you are calling clipping? Please describe it? Clipping is actually a lack of feel. If the wheel is clipping, there will be extended periods of time where the wheel is doing nothing but applying a constant force in one directly. You will feel nothing but this constant force. So, if there is some other "spikyness" that you are feeling, that is not clipping. --------------------------------------------------------- I believe that this is more complicated than this. Ken will understand. First people misunderstand what FORCE FEEDBACK is. Force feedback isn't a force that is applied from wheel onto your hands. People understand word "force" very well, the problem is that they don't understand word "feedback" at all. The "force" is FEED by the work of your arms. If you resist wheel, force will grow larger. I only wanted to make this clearer. Clipping isn't just a constant force. First, clipping is the uttermost force, it is the strongest force you will feel, you cannot miss it at all, you don't need delicate tools to feel it, it will be so strong, that you will feel it in your bones. Then, look above what I wrote regarding "feedback". You resist wheel force, and wheel force grow stronger. But then it stops to grow, and your arms win. This is clipping in force feedback. I feel it exactly like somebody is hammering with a hammer inside wheel. I feel it only on bamps (sometimes in other, NON-DRIVING situations). Which is logical, bamps are by far the strongest things you will feel on your wheel. So, I hit a bamp, I feel like somebody has hit wheel with a hammer. Mario |
#16
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FFB
Mario Petrinovic:
> But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this > affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it > badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects > FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to > match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB. Actually, it is more like your wheel is on pendulum (I hope this is correct word) attached to the center of gravity. The bigger the difference between center of your eyes and center of screen, the longer pendulum is. Mario |
#17
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FFB
"Mario Petrinovic" > wrote in message
... > Mario Petrinovic: >> But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this >> affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it >> badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects >> FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to >> match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB. > > Actually, it is more like your wheel is on pendulum (I hope this is > correct word) attached to the center of gravity. The bigger the difference > between center of your eyes and center of screen, the longer pendulum is. Actually, not pendulum, but a stick or a pole attached to center of gravity. Mario |
#18
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FFB
Well sometimes it is not what you write, but how you write it. Your
writing style is a bit, not sure if this is the right word, aggressive. Some of it may just be the translation, but often good ideas may not be well received if they are presented the wrong way. On the internet two people (even many people) agreeing on something doesn't make it right. And at for every opinion out there someone will have an opposing one. Life gets easier if you can accept that. BTW I am not an expert on control systems, and certainly don't know the inner workings of how FFB is implemented. I'm assuming the term "damping" in a FFB wheel settings is the same as damping in a control system, but sometimes different industries have different meanings for the same terms. For example in truth it is not really force feedback system, but more of a force feedforward system (i.e. the amount of force at the wheel is not fed back into the system to determine the new set point for the force. It is only one way as the wheel position is read the and the physics in the virtual environment is processed to determine the resulting force, whether or not the force is actually output has no (little) bearing on the next calculation of the force signal. For example you could cut the wires to the motor and the force calculated would be the same even though no force is generated). I can't say for sure that damping with a FFB wheel works in the way the way previously described as haven't done any testing or seen any results to prove it. The problem with FFB is that is very subjective. As you said things such as the amount of force felt will depend on how firmly someone is holding the wheel (i.e the controller just sends current to the motor, if someone is holding it tightly a force is produced, if it is not held the wheel just spins with no (little) force produced). What I would like to see is someone instrumenting the wheel to measure force (torque) and compare the measured force (torque) signal to the control signal. That would allow for proper tuning of the wheel settings to ensure that the force output follows the control signal, and would also determine lag, clipping, etc. Still have to think about what you are saying about the screen height/ FOV affecting FFB. Certainly lag in the FFB output can cause problems with timing in what is felt and what is seen on screen. To clarify, are you saying that if the driving position in the game (virtual cockpit) is moved higher the forces are changed? Or is it that if you move your real seating position relative to the monitor that the force changes (e.g. you raise/lower the monitor on the desk). On Aug 31, 7:14*pm, "Mario Petrinovic" > wrote: > Ken MacKay: > > > > > Almost hate to jump in here but have been enjoying this thread so much > > have to contribute. > > > Some of what Mario has been saying might be lost in translation. *What > > I got from it was that he doesn't care if the larger forces like > > hitting curbs or bumps are clipped. I believe he wants the more subtle > > forces, like those coming from cornering, to come through stronger so > > he increases the wheel settings so these come through better, at the > > expense of the larger forces being clipped. > > > As for the comments about the damper settings I believe he is saying > > that without damping the forces coming through are noisy because > > without some damping the forces don't settle at the intended value. > > In a control system the goal is for the system to reach a new set > > point quickly and settle to that value. In a system with little > > damping the system will tend to overshoot the set point and then > > undershoot, and keep oscillating about the the set point for a few > > cycles. *Without any damping it may never settle to the set point and > > keep under-overshooting the set point (this may possibly be the > > "spikyness"). *In a dynamic system, where the set point is always > > changing, no damping can produce very erratic behavior. *I believe > > this is why Mario is saying that having no damping is not correct. On > > the other hand an overdamped system takes longer to reach the set > > point, so for a dynamic system the intended levels may never be > > reached and this can completely obscure smaller/brief changes in set > > point. > > * * * * Oh, thanks Ken. > * * * * You obviously understand very well those things, and plus you have > experience with it. I also have some experience at my work. I was writing > exactly what you wrote, in iRacing forum, and boy, the reception I got, BOTH > from common laymen, and from iRacing. I mean, at least iRacing SHOULD know > something about it. I mean, maybe iRacing understands this, they never said > that they excluded me because of what I wrote, but because of complaining of > other people. This way or that way, this simply isn't fair. > * * * * I mean, you wrote everything, and this cannot be written better. Who > is able to understand it, he will understand. The problem are some > missconceptions that are preveiling in simracing community. The > missconceptions aren't that bad, if they weren't backed up by > Papyrus/iRacing themselves. The most popular missconception is that damper > forces are canned. Of course they are canned, but without them FFB forces > DON'T work as intended. Simple as that. Both, Papyrus and iRacing > INTENTIONALLY dissabled damper. There is NO sense in this. Even if people > who are using damper are wrong (of course, they aren't), I mean, they have > the right to use it, if they want it. And then come some "purists" who want > "pure" forces. Lol, I mean... > > > As to whether his settings are correct or not I cannot say as don't > > have that wheel. *And again, this is how I interpreted his posts. > > YMMV. > > > I am still trying to translate what he is saying about FOV and > > cockpitLookDeadZone affecting FFB. *The only possible connection I > > could think of was that he is trying to get the feeling of immersion > > correct, such that the visuals are correct along with the forces > > coming through the wheel so that everything "feels" right. *But that > > is just a guess on my part. *If there is a correlation between the > > actual forces output by the wheel and *FOV and cockpitLookDeadZone > > settings I'd be glad to have an explanation of how they are linked and > > why the settings require such precision. > > * * * * The incorrect FOV beahves like this: > * * * * Too low FOV, picture is vertically compressed, and horizontally > stretched. > * * * * Too high FOV, is the other way around. > * * * * The arch you are seeing on your screen doesn't corespondence to the > forces you feel through wheel. If too low FOV, you have too sharp corners, > and other way around. > * * * * But FOV isn't such a problem. > * * * * CockiptLookDeadZone is some kind of lag menagement. I am still > testing it, but it looks like this should be something like 0.100000. > iRacing puts this to 0.050000. Of course that lag affects FFB very much. > * * * * But, the most important thing is the hight of screen. Why this > affects FFB, I really don't know exactly, but it definitelly affects it > badly. Since you are good in physics you will understand this. It affects > FFB the way shifting the center of gravity up or down, would. This has to > match PRECISELY, otherwise you'll have problems with FFB. > > * * * * Mario |
#19
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FFB
Ken MacKay:
Well sometimes it is not what you write, but how you write it. Your writing style is a bit, not sure if this is the right word, aggressive. Some of it may just be the translation, but often good ideas may not be well received if they are presented the wrong way. On the internet two people (even many people) agreeing on something doesn't make it right. And at for every opinion out there someone will have an opposing one. Life gets easier if you can accept that. -------------------------------------------------------------- No, life gets tougher. Because problems remain unsolved. First, I am NOT an aggresive person, and I wasn't aggresive. A lot of people perceive any new idea as an aggresion towards their world, but this doesn't mean that people who are spreading those ideas are aggresive, it is other people that are aggresive towards them. It is like someone would say that Galileo was aggresive with his ideas, while actually the others were aggresive towards him. While many people were EXTREMLY rude towards me, I tried to turn this into a fun, into a joke, or something. iRacing should have protected me from angry mob, but they did just the opposite. ------------------------------------------------------------- BTW I am not an expert on control systems, and certainly don't know the inner workings of how FFB is implemented. I'm assuming the term "damping" in a FFB wheel settings is the same as damping in a control system, but sometimes different industries have different meanings for the same terms. For example in truth it is not really force feedback system, but more of a force feedforward system (i.e. the amount of force at the wheel is not fed back into the system to determine the new set point for the force. It is only one way as the wheel position is read the and the physics in the virtual environment is processed to determine the resulting force, whether or not the force is actually output has no (little) bearing on the next calculation of the force signal. For example you could cut the wires to the motor and the force calculated would be the same even though no force is generated). I can't say for sure that damping with a FFB wheel works in the way the way previously described as haven't done any testing or seen any results to prove it. The problem with FFB is that is very subjective. As you said things such as the amount of force felt will depend on how firmly someone is holding the wheel (i.e the controller just sends current to the motor, if someone is holding it tightly a force is produced, if it is not held the wheel just spins with no (little) force produced). What I would like to see is someone instrumenting the wheel to measure force (torque) and compare the measured force (torque) signal to the control signal. That would allow for proper tuning of the wheel settings to ensure that the force output follows the control signal, and would also determine lag, clipping, etc. Still have to think about what you are saying about the screen height/ FOV affecting FFB. Certainly lag in the FFB output can cause problems with timing in what is felt and what is seen on screen. To clarify, are you saying that if the driving position in the game (virtual cockpit) is moved higher the forces are changed? Or is it that if you move your real seating position relative to the monitor that the force changes (e.g. you raise/lower the monitor on the desk). ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, start with lag. You drive your sim car guided by the picture on screen. The problem is that there is a DIFFERENCE in time, and this is reflected in FFB. FOV. For example, wrong FOV looks like some compressed or stretched world, like you are driving your car in a compressed (or stretched) world. There wouldn't be a problem to drive a car in such a world, if physics in sim are like physics in a compressed world, but they aren't, they are like in normal world, so here you have the DIFFERENCE which affects FFB. Imagine all the physics in sim. You can tie it to one particular point in space, and this is a vanishing point. You, in your normal world also have vanishing point, and your screen, just like everything else, fits into it, it is tied to it. Now, problem arise if you want to do something which isn't in your world, but in a virtual world inside the screen. This world has its own vanishing point, which doesn't match yours, and all your physics isn't aligned to the physics of the virtual world. The difference behaves just like I explained in the previous post. IOW, you drive your car like it is in your world (well, actually, the picture of it is in your world), while actually it isn't, it is in some other world, which is (the whole sim world) shifted down or up. Well, I cannot explain it better, but, of course, I can clearly feel it in FFB, otherwise I wouldn't write about it. I mean, there shouldn't be a problem for anyone to try it, just shift hight of picture up or down. Of course, if you have undamped FFB, you have big problems to perceive anything rightly, so any rise of screen can be just as confusing and FFB just as erratic. Mario |
#20
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FFB
If Mario's recommended settings resulted in only the largest spike in
forces to be clipped, I would find that perfectly reasonable. If the addition of damper results in a more realistic feel for him, I think that's great. I usually use some level of damping myself. I see two problems here; One, Mario describes clipping as some sort of extremely strong shock delivered through the wheel. He says this: "Clipping isn't just a constant force." But it is. If the wheel is clipping, it is outputting the constant maximum force allowed by the wheel's FFB settings.Everyone else in the world understands this, but Mario seems to be trying to redefine the use of the word. Secondly, his recommended 139/139/139 settings combined with any more than a 1 or 2 in-game FFB strength results in constant FFB clipping, i.e. max force output of the FFB motors. In fact, with a 139 overall strength, even at a 1 or 2 in-game setting, the usable cornering aligning torque feedback is being "squashed" into the upper range of force level, such that it might as well be clipped. With his original recommendation of 40 on the old 100 scale, or his new recommendation of 8 on the 40 scale, the only time the wheel will not be delivering max force output will be when the wheel is within a few degrees of the center of the aligning torque of the front tires. Going down an straight away, and slightly moving the steering wheel to the left or right will result in max force in the opposite direction. It's very unstable. The other thing is his ideas on FOV. If all he is saying is that the perspective needs to be correct in order for the brain to properly interpret FFB in the context of what is on-screen, then that is reasonable. But he seems to be saying that the forces felt at the wheel literally change when FOV settings are changed. I do not believe this. And even if they did change, IMO he would never be able to perceive the difference given the FFB settings he claims to run. But obviously, he has all the answers and everyone else in the world is clueless |
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