changing brake fluid, also ABS

I'd like to change the brake fluid in my 94 Civic with ABS, but I'm
unsure of the best method to ensure that all or most fluid is replaced.
It looks to me like changing the fluid in the ABS unit is beyond my DIY
capabilities. The bleeder T-wrench would cost $116, and the ALB Checker
would be $825! Certainly not items I'd consider purchasing for the
couple of times I'd use them.

So the question is, is it worth replacing the fluid in the primary
system when it won't be possible for me to replace the ABS fluid? My ABS
*rarely* activates. Should I at least suck out the fluid in the ABS
reservoir and replace at least that, in addition to replacing the fluid
in the primary system, then activate the ABS unit by stopping suddenly
on loose gravel or sandy ground several times to "mix" some of the new
fluid with the old? I need to activate the ABS a few times periodically
anyway, I've heard here, to avoid significant problems with the unit
down the road.

Can I suck the old fluid out of just the ABS reservoir and pour new in
*without* having to bleed the unit?

Should I simply find a shop that can change the fluid and have them do
both systems?

If it's worth doing the primary system myself, would it be
reasonable/correct to suck out the master cylinder, refill with new
fluid, then, at the bleeder screws at each caliper, suck through a bunch
of fluid to clear the old and replace with new? Anyone have any idea how
many ML of fluid are in each pipe, between master cylinder and each
caliper? Maybe the color will be different, maybe not... I have no idea
when the fluid was last changed as the owner didn't pass on the repair
record. I did get a monster quart bottle of brake fluid to do this, so I
suppose I'll just suck through a bunch and try not to overdo it. ;-)

Tips from experience would be appreciated. I can't afford to screw it up
and not have the use of the car immediately afterwards, at least not
this week. Planning to do it Tue if I have time. TIA.

Abeness wrote:
> I'd like to change the brake fluid in my 94 Civic with ABS, but I'm
> unsure of the best method to ensure that all or most fluid is replaced.
> It looks to me like changing the fluid in the ABS unit is beyond my DIY
> capabilities. The bleeder T-wrench would cost $116, and the ALB Checker
> would be $825! Certainly not items I'd consider purchasing for the
> couple of times I'd use them.
>
> So the question is, is it worth replacing the fluid in the primary
> system when it won't be possible for me to replace the ABS fluid? My ABS
> *rarely* activates. Should I at least suck out the fluid in the ABS
> reservoir and replace at least that, in addition to replacing the fluid
> in the primary system, then activate the ABS unit by stopping suddenly
> on loose gravel or sandy ground several times to "mix" some of the new
> fluid with the old? I need to activate the ABS a few times periodically
> anyway, I've heard here, to avoid significant problems with the unit
> down the road.
>
> Can I suck the old fluid out of just the ABS reservoir and pour new in
> *without* having to bleed the unit?
>
> Should I simply find a shop that can change the fluid and have them do
> both systems?
>
> If it's worth doing the primary system myself, would it be
> reasonable/correct to suck out the master cylinder, refill with new
> fluid, then, at the bleeder screws at each caliper, suck through a bunch
> of fluid to clear the old and replace with new? Anyone have any idea how
> many ML of fluid are in each pipe, between master cylinder and each
> caliper? Maybe the color will be different, maybe not... I have no idea
> when the fluid was last changed as the owner didn't pass on the repair
> record. I did get a monster quart bottle of brake fluid to do this, so I
> suppose I'll just suck through a bunch and try not to overdo it. ;-)
>
> Tips from experience would be appreciated. I can't afford to screw it up
> and not have the use of the car immediately afterwards, at least not
> this week. Planning to do it Tue if I have time. TIA.

===================

For now, just get a helper and bleed the main brakes. Engine off, pump
the pedal lightly a few times until all vacuum is gone. Put a 2x4 under
the brake pedal so your helper doesn't push the pedal any lower than it
usually goes in real use. Buy a cheap turkey baster (dollar store) to
suck the reservoir empty empty before starting.

Get some clear Tygon tubing from the wine making store that will fit the
nipples. Blead front left, front right, rear right, then rear left.

You don't need to put the end of the hose submerged, since you will be
turning the nipple OFF each time the helper says 'down'. Make sure they
go back up slowly, too.

Any brand of DOT 3 or 4 is OK, just don't SHAKE it before pouring, and
make sure it's fresh.

You should do the ABS too, later. We'll talk.

'Curly'

Abeness wrote:
> I'd like to change the brake fluid in my 94 Civic with ABS, but I'm
> unsure of the best method to ensure that all or most fluid is replaced.
> It looks to me like changing the fluid in the ABS unit is beyond my DIY
> capabilities. The bleeder T-wrench would cost $116, and the ALB Checker
> would be $825! Certainly not items I'd consider purchasing for the
> couple of times I'd use them.
>
> So the question is, is it worth replacing the fluid in the primary
> system when it won't be possible for me to replace the ABS fluid? My ABS
> *rarely* activates. Should I at least suck out the fluid in the ABS
> reservoir and replace at least that, in addition to replacing the fluid
> in the primary system, then activate the ABS unit by stopping suddenly
> on loose gravel or sandy ground several times to "mix" some of the new
> fluid with the old? I need to activate the ABS a few times periodically
> anyway, I've heard here, to avoid significant problems with the unit
> down the road.
>
> Can I suck the old fluid out of just the ABS reservoir and pour new in
> *without* having to bleed the unit?
>
> Should I simply find a shop that can change the fluid and have them do
> both systems?
>
> If it's worth doing the primary system myself, would it be
> reasonable/correct to suck out the master cylinder, refill with new
> fluid, then, at the bleeder screws at each caliper, suck through a bunch
> of fluid to clear the old and replace with new? Anyone have any idea how
> many ML of fluid are in each pipe, between master cylinder and each
> caliper? Maybe the color will be different, maybe not... I have no idea
> when the fluid was last changed as the owner didn't pass on the repair
> record. I did get a monster quart bottle of brake fluid to do this, so I
> suppose I'll just suck through a bunch and try not to overdo it. ;-)
>
> Tips from experience would be appreciated. I can't afford to screw it up
> and not have the use of the car immediately afterwards, at least not
> this week. Planning to do it Tue if I have time. TIA.

===================

For now, just get a helper and bleed the main brakes. Engine off, pump
the pedal lightly a few times until all vacuum is gone. Put a 2x4 under
the brake pedal so your helper doesn't push the pedal any lower than it
usually goes in real use. Buy a cheap turkey baster (dollar store) to
suck the reservoir empty empty before starting.

Get some clear Tygon tubing from the wine making store that will fit the
nipples. Blead front left, front right, rear right, then rear left.

You don't need to put the end of the hose submerged, since you will be
turning the nipple OFF each time the helper says 'down'. Make sure they
go back up slowly, too.

Any brand of DOT 3 or 4 is OK, just don't SHAKE it before pouring, and
make sure it's fresh.

You should do the ABS too, later. We'll talk.

'Curly'

motsco_ _ wrote:
> Abeness wrote:
>
>> I'd like to change the brake fluid in my 94 Civic with ABS, but I'm
>> unsure of the best method to ensure that all or most fluid is
>> replaced. It looks to me like changing the fluid in the ABS unit is
>> beyond my DIY capabilities. The bleeder T-wrench would cost $116, and
>> the ALB Checker would be $825! Certainly not items I'd consider
>> purchasing for the couple of times I'd use them.
>>
>> So the question is, is it worth replacing the fluid in the primary
>> system when it won't be possible for me to replace the ABS fluid? My
>> ABS *rarely* activates. Should I at least suck out the fluid in the
>> ABS reservoir and replace at least that, in addition to replacing the
>> fluid in the primary system, then activate the ABS unit by stopping
>> suddenly on loose gravel or sandy ground several times to "mix" some
>> of the new fluid with the old? I need to activate the ABS a few times
>> periodically anyway, I've heard here, to avoid significant problems
>> with the unit down the road.
>>
>> Can I suck the old fluid out of just the ABS reservoir and pour new in
>> *without* having to bleed the unit?
>>
>> Should I simply find a shop that can change the fluid and have them do
>> both systems?
>>
>> If it's worth doing the primary system myself, would it be
>> reasonable/correct to suck out the master cylinder, refill with new
>> fluid, then, at the bleeder screws at each caliper, suck through a
>> bunch of fluid to clear the old and replace with new? Anyone have any
>> idea how many ML of fluid are in each pipe, between master cylinder
>> and each caliper? Maybe the color will be different, maybe not... I
>> have no idea when the fluid was last changed as the owner didn't pass
>> on the repair record. I did get a monster quart bottle of brake fluid
>> to do this, so I suppose I'll just suck through a bunch and try not to
>> overdo it. ;-)
>>
>> Tips from experience would be appreciated. I can't afford to screw it
>> up and not have the use of the car immediately afterwards, at least
>> not this week. Planning to do it Tue if I have time. TIA.
>
>
> ===================
>
> For now, just get a helper and bleed the main brakes. Engine off, pump
> the pedal lightly a few times until all vacuum is gone. Put a 2x4 under
> the brake pedal so your helper doesn't push the pedal any lower than it
> usually goes in real use. Buy a cheap turkey baster (dollar store) to
> suck the reservoir empty empty before starting.
>
> Get some clear Tygon tubing from the wine making store that will fit the
> nipples. Blead front left, front right, rear right, then rear left.
>
> You don't need to put the end of the hose submerged, since you will be
> turning the nipple OFF each time the helper says 'down'. Make sure they
> go back up slowly, too.
>
> Any brand of DOT 3 or 4 is OK, just don't SHAKE it before pouring, and
> make sure it's fresh.
>
> You should do the ABS too, later. We'll talk.
>
> 'Curly'

curly, you repeatedly show you know your stuff, but where's this thing
about the 2x4 under the brake pedal come from? i've disassembled many
brake cylinders many times, even ones from junk yards that have been
open to the elements for extended periods, and the aluminum honda
[nissin, et al] cylinders are generally pretty good about not having
serious internal corrosion. corrosion is the only possible argument for
not flooring a brake cylinder when bleeding, in that abrasion can score
the seals and, in time, cause leaks. but if the cylinder is in good
condition, flooring the pedal is by far the best [& sometimes only] way
to ensure that the cylinder really is expelling all its air. the
argument that some people use about bleeding the brakes on an ancient
vehicle than discovering that the seals leak a few months later is not
necessarily related to the bleeding method & is much more likely either
coincidence for a high mileage system or effects of fresh fluid
re-contracting what was previously over-swollen contaminated old seal
rubber.

from a safety viewpoint, i say bleed the brake without the 2x4. it
guarantees air expulsion.

motsco_ _ wrote:
> Abeness wrote:
>
>> I'd like to change the brake fluid in my 94 Civic with ABS, but I'm
>> unsure of the best method to ensure that all or most fluid is
>> replaced. It looks to me like changing the fluid in the ABS unit is
>> beyond my DIY capabilities. The bleeder T-wrench would cost $116, and
>> the ALB Checker would be $825! Certainly not items I'd consider
>> purchasing for the couple of times I'd use them.
>>
>> So the question is, is it worth replacing the fluid in the primary
>> system when it won't be possible for me to replace the ABS fluid? My
>> ABS *rarely* activates. Should I at least suck out the fluid in the
>> ABS reservoir and replace at least that, in addition to replacing the
>> fluid in the primary system, then activate the ABS unit by stopping
>> suddenly on loose gravel or sandy ground several times to "mix" some
>> of the new fluid with the old? I need to activate the ABS a few times
>> periodically anyway, I've heard here, to avoid significant problems
>> with the unit down the road.
>>
>> Can I suck the old fluid out of just the ABS reservoir and pour new in
>> *without* having to bleed the unit?
>>
>> Should I simply find a shop that can change the fluid and have them do
>> both systems?
>>
>> If it's worth doing the primary system myself, would it be
>> reasonable/correct to suck out the master cylinder, refill with new
>> fluid, then, at the bleeder screws at each caliper, suck through a
>> bunch of fluid to clear the old and replace with new? Anyone have any
>> idea how many ML of fluid are in each pipe, between master cylinder
>> and each caliper? Maybe the color will be different, maybe not... I
>> have no idea when the fluid was last changed as the owner didn't pass
>> on the repair record. I did get a monster quart bottle of brake fluid
>> to do this, so I suppose I'll just suck through a bunch and try not to
>> overdo it. ;-)
>>
>> Tips from experience would be appreciated. I can't afford to screw it
>> up and not have the use of the car immediately afterwards, at least
>> not this week. Planning to do it Tue if I have time. TIA.
>
>
> ===================
>
> For now, just get a helper and bleed the main brakes. Engine off, pump
> the pedal lightly a few times until all vacuum is gone. Put a 2x4 under
> the brake pedal so your helper doesn't push the pedal any lower than it
> usually goes in real use. Buy a cheap turkey baster (dollar store) to
> suck the reservoir empty empty before starting.
>
> Get some clear Tygon tubing from the wine making store that will fit the
> nipples. Blead front left, front right, rear right, then rear left.
>
> You don't need to put the end of the hose submerged, since you will be
> turning the nipple OFF each time the helper says 'down'. Make sure they
> go back up slowly, too.
>
> Any brand of DOT 3 or 4 is OK, just don't SHAKE it before pouring, and
> make sure it's fresh.
>
> You should do the ABS too, later. We'll talk.
>
> 'Curly'

curly, you repeatedly show you know your stuff, but where's this thing
about the 2x4 under the brake pedal come from? i've disassembled many
brake cylinders many times, even ones from junk yards that have been
open to the elements for extended periods, and the aluminum honda
[nissin, et al] cylinders are generally pretty good about not having
serious internal corrosion. corrosion is the only possible argument for
not flooring a brake cylinder when bleeding, in that abrasion can score
the seals and, in time, cause leaks. but if the cylinder is in good
condition, flooring the pedal is by far the best [& sometimes only] way
to ensure that the cylinder really is expelling all its air. the
argument that some people use about bleeding the brakes on an ancient
vehicle than discovering that the seals leak a few months later is not
necessarily related to the bleeding method & is much more likely either
coincidence for a high mileage system or effects of fresh fluid
re-contracting what was previously over-swollen contaminated old seal
rubber.

from a safety viewpoint, i say bleed the brake without the 2x4. it
guarantees air expulsion.

Abeness wrote:

> caliper? Maybe the color will be different, maybe not... I have no idea
> when the fluid was last changed as the owner didn't pass on the repair
> record.

should be clearish/"straw" colored. gets darker with age, to the point
it looks like coffee. if its dark gold or turning brown, youll see the
difference.

Abeness wrote:

> caliper? Maybe the color will be different, maybe not... I have no idea
> when the fluid was last changed as the owner didn't pass on the repair
> record.

should be clearish/"straw" colored. gets darker with age, to the point
it looks like coffee. if its dark gold or turning brown, youll see the
difference.

jim beam wrote:
>
> curly, you repeatedly show you know your stuff, but where's this thing
> about the 2x4 under the brake pedal come from? i've disassembled many
> brake cylinders many times, even ones from junk yards that have been
> open to the elements for extended periods, and the aluminum honda
> [nissin, et al] cylinders are generally pretty good about not having
> serious internal corrosion. corrosion is the only possible argument for
> not flooring a brake cylinder when bleeding, in that abrasion can score
> the seals and, in time, cause leaks. but if the cylinder is in good
> condition,

the service history and color of the fluid are unknown.

i bought a mityvac, and use that instead of pumping the pedal. seems to
work well, IMO. but i like an excuse to buy tools

jim beam wrote:
>
> curly, you repeatedly show you know your stuff, but where's this thing
> about the 2x4 under the brake pedal come from? i've disassembled many
> brake cylinders many times, even ones from junk yards that have been
> open to the elements for extended periods, and the aluminum honda
> [nissin, et al] cylinders are generally pretty good about not having
> serious internal corrosion. corrosion is the only possible argument for
> not flooring a brake cylinder when bleeding, in that abrasion can score
> the seals and, in time, cause leaks. but if the cylinder is in good
> condition,

the service history and color of the fluid are unknown.

i bought a mityvac, and use that instead of pumping the pedal. seems to
work well, IMO. but i like an excuse to buy tools

Thanks, and thanks also to Curly and Jim. I actually picked up the
MityVac kit, too, for various reasons, so no pedal pumping or extra
turkey basters for me. ;-)

Curly, you make it sound like I can do the ABS myself without $950 worth
of tools. I'll be very interested to hear how. Good to know I can do
them independently of each other and I assume not lose too much--I mean,
insofar as the two systems intermingle when the ABS activates I'd expect
the old ABS fluid to contaminate the primary system.