WOW...

Stephen F. wrote:

> Even worse, he's probably thinking of this one:
>
> http://www.bambootrading.com/1800/1819.jpg

Bingo.

Exactly Bob.

Anyone that thinks the bumps are over-modeled in GTR obviously dont have a
clue about reality. Did you watch the SJ cart race?

I almost cracked a rib when some moron says GTP over models the bumps. Papy
(or anyone) was never even close to reality in this regard. A few tracks
are pretty smooth, but not many and not that smooth.

GTR is right on regarding the bumps in conjunction with head movement feels
very realistic.

Id bet most here dont even turn on head "G"s.


"Bob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I don't understand the doom and gloom.
>
> I think there are any number of great sims now.
>
> WRT GTR complaints. Online - probably justified. Offline - the fact
> is that no sim has modeled bumps anywhere near this well, so it feels
> strange compared to the unrealistically smooth sims everyone's used to.
> Watch an incar of LeMans - looks _exactly_ like GTR. The cars are
> dancing around like crazy. Yeah, it's tough to drive. But my times
> keep improving as I do it better, the skills involved are realistic
> ones, and I always know what I'm doing wrong. I can't say the same
> about GPL, as good as it is.
>
> RBR. If this doesn't excite you, I'm surprised. I'm still trying to
> pass that last darn lesson. Just not good enough. When I get
> frustrated with that I go to Nevada and let it all hang out. Woo.
>
> NASCAR. People just say they don't get NASCAR. The difference is that
> NASCAR is a competition between drivers, not cars or tracks. You need
> to be able to drive a corner a tenth of a second faster than the other
> guy, adjust your line to deal with traffic or your setup/tires, and
> know when to make a move and when to hold back and wait for a better
> opportunity. Tire management is crucial in longer races. There's a
> _lot_ to it (mostly involving thinking), just different stuff than
> roadracing. To me, different is good.
>
> GPL holds up amazingly well, but I think GTR has pretty well surpassed
> it offline. GPL seems artificial by comparison, particularly in how
> the cars respond to setup changes. Screwy setups work in GPL, but not
> in GTR.
>

jason moyer wrote:

> I think GTR is a helluva an effort, but yeah, the constant porpoising
> is annoying.

Interestingly enough, while I find the GTL demo underwhelming (my god
these cars dumptruck like mad), it doesn't seem to feature the constant
porpoising that GTR had.

Dave Henrie wrote:
> Don Scurlock > wrote in
>
> >
> > Go to Options, then Advanced, play with your G-Force Simulation and
> > World Movement sliders to reduce the movement. Don
> >
> >
>
> Thanks...I'll look into that. I noticed that using the Fast default
> setup at Spa, I got very little of the porpiseing effect that I mentioned
> above. However, using one of Gregor Huttu's setups at Estoril, that is
> where the bouncing seemed the worst. Especially after the middle straight
> and the sharp left. There is a medium length straight before you turn
> right to go through the Esto<?> Chicane. On that straight, between turns 5
> and 6 if you don't count the kink in the 2nd longest straight, I can't seem
> to put any power down due to the bouncing.
> dave henrie

Someone complaining that GTR is too bumpy, said

<using one of Gregor Huttu's setups at Estoril, that is
where the bouncing seemed the worst. Especially after the middle
straight and the sharp left. There is a medium length straight before
you turn right to go through the Esto<?> Chicane. On that straight,
between turns 5 and 6 if you don't count the kink in the 2nd longest
straight, I can't seem to put any power down due to the bouncing. >

Some stuff from some recent MotoGP websites:

"Nicky had said the surface wasn't as bad as a lot of guys were saying,
no worse than at Estoril as an example. "

"Again the low grip levels are a factor, as are the repetitive bumps in
the track surface on the exits of the turns, which can unsettle a fast
bike on old tires easily."

"The track lies 20 miles west of Lisbon and is close to the town of
Sintra. The 4.182km circuit features a balance of turns with nine
rights and four lefts. Built in 1972 the surface is now bumpy in parts
and some riders are unsure over the asphalt's ability to provide
dependable grip over a race weekend."

"Estoril is also one of the most difficult circuits to find the right
suspension settings. The front suspension is subject to heavy braking
at the end of the start/finish straight and also in the straight
leading onto the Parabolica Interior corner. It is therefore necessary
to fit hard springs, although the circuit is quite bumpy and these hard
springs do not absorb the bumps so well which often pushes the bike off
the racing line. The same problem is apparent in the rear suspension
too. On the one hand there is a section of esses and also a corner
taken in fifth gear at more than 230 km/h which in normal circumstances
would mean fitting hard springs to make the rear more rigid. However,
on the other hand, the lack of grip on the track and the bumpy surface
means we must choose a softer suspension to reach a compromise. "

Welcome to reality. GTR rocks.

Bob

Yea funny. I was watching the Busch truck race last weekend and all the
drivers kept saying was how bumpy and slick Nashville is. In fact pretty
much every driver is always looking for more grip at any track on any day.

Each time I heard this I had to laugh at the people here who truly believe
in their hearts that GTR's slick bumpiness is unrealistic. And these are fn
Trucks on an Oval no less.

..


"Bob" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Someone complaining that GTR is too bumpy, said
>
> <using one of Gregor Huttu's setups at Estoril, that is
> where the bouncing seemed the worst. Especially after the middle
> straight and the sharp left. There is a medium length straight before
> you turn right to go through the Esto<?> Chicane. On that straight,
> between turns 5 and 6 if you don't count the kink in the 2nd longest
> straight, I can't seem to put any power down due to the bouncing. >
>
> Some stuff from some recent MotoGP websites:
>
> "Nicky had said the surface wasn't as bad as a lot of guys were saying,
> no worse than at Estoril as an example. "
>
> "Again the low grip levels are a factor, as are the repetitive bumps in
> the track surface on the exits of the turns, which can unsettle a fast
> bike on old tires easily."
>
> "The track lies 20 miles west of Lisbon and is close to the town of
> Sintra. The 4.182km circuit features a balance of turns with nine
> rights and four lefts. Built in 1972 the surface is now bumpy in parts
> and some riders are unsure over the asphalt's ability to provide
> dependable grip over a race weekend."
>
> "Estoril is also one of the most difficult circuits to find the right
> suspension settings. The front suspension is subject to heavy braking
> at the end of the start/finish straight and also in the straight
> leading onto the Parabolica Interior corner. It is therefore necessary
> to fit hard springs, although the circuit is quite bumpy and these hard
> springs do not absorb the bumps so well which often pushes the bike off
> the racing line. The same problem is apparent in the rear suspension
> too. On the one hand there is a section of esses and also a corner
> taken in fifth gear at more than 230 km/h which in normal circumstances
> would mean fitting hard springs to make the rear more rigid. However,
> on the other hand, the lack of grip on the track and the bumpy surface
> means we must choose a softer suspension to reach a compromise. "
>
> Welcome to reality. GTR rocks.
>
> Bob
>

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:30:55 +0200, "Stephen F."
> wrote:

>Even worse, he's probably thinking of this one:
>
>http://www.bambootrading.com/1800/1819.jpg

Hey, I actually *owned* one of those. Two, really. :-)
1986 Pony, and a 1991 LX. Not a bad car, really. I got 171K miles
out of the second before the tranny died...

Eldred

Bob wrote:
> WRT GTR complaints. Online - probably justified. Offline - the fact
> is that no sim has modeled bumps anywhere near this well, so it feels
> strange compared to the unrealistically smooth sims everyone's used to.
> Watch an incar of LeMans - looks _exactly_ like GTR. The cars are
> dancing around like crazy. Yeah, it's tough to drive. But my times
> keep improving as I do it better, the skills involved are realistic
> ones, and I always know what I'm doing wrong. I can't say the same
> about GPL, as good as it is.

I'm not a NASCAR fan, and my first proper foray into Papy's NASCAR sims
was NR2002. One of my first TV races, I remember thinking just how
bumpy the track was-the cars were all over the place, and I've
experienced just how awful American suspension is (sorry guys, but it's
true-I hired a Mercedes Vito 8-seater last weekend with air suspension,
rocked and rolled all over the place as you'd expect, and it was still
better than anything American I've driven on the suspension side of
things ). Anyway, I remember Papy making a big deal of modelling
bumps in NR2003, but no, it's still smooth-as. GTR is good. Also,
porpoising is natural in racing cars, due to their extremely light
weight and very stiff suspension settings. You just don't get that in
overdamped cup cars, but you should still get the bumps in a sim like
NR2003-plus the 2CV rebounds

> RBR. If this doesn't excite you, I'm surprised. I'm still trying to
> pass that last darn lesson. Just not good enough. When I get
> frustrated with that I go to Nevada and let it all hang out. Woo.

That one's nasty... the thing I like about RBR is you first get in and
it understeers everywhere. And I mean *everywhere*. You have to learn
how to left-foot brake to even get around most of the corners. In
fact, it's pretty realistic in that regard. The first time I got a
proper pendulum going, I couldn't get the grin off my face!

> NASCAR. People just say they don't get NASCAR. The difference is that
> NASCAR is a competition between drivers, not cars or tracks. You need
> to be able to drive a corner a tenth of a second faster than the other
> guy, adjust your line to deal with traffic or your setup/tires, and
> know when to make a move and when to hold back and wait for a better
> opportunity. Tire management is crucial in longer races. There's a
> _lot_ to it (mostly involving thinking), just different stuff than
> roadracing. To me, different is good.

That is a fantastic way to sum it up. I'm just not made for NASCAR, or
it's not made for me, or whatever, but I respect the skills involved.
Everything that racing means to me seems at odds to what is involved in
NASCAR, but it obviously appeals to a lot of people and I respect that.

> GPL holds up amazingly well, but I think GTR has pretty well surpassed
> it offline. GPL seems artificial by comparison, particularly in how
> the cars respond to setup changes. Screwy setups work in GPL, but not
> in GTR.

GPL is great, but the tyre model is damn awful. The thing that puts me
off most is the GPL 'bounce'-when you're sliding and one end moves a
bit, then with the increased AoA, the other end returns, and you end up
yawing laterally a few degrees left and right through the turns. It
reminds me of an F-16 deep stall, where it just settles and you have to
follow the yaw moments with your controls until you can get it out of
the other end. Everything else about that sim is great though, I'd
love to see the source leaked so we could fix it up-it worked so well
for Falcon 4.0...

> You really should give RBR a go, but...what about GTP? Great multi,
> great physics,

Ahem, great physics? RBR, yes but GTP? Well, I guess they're not
contaminated with complexity...

Steve Simpson wrote:

> Ahem, great physics? RBR, yes but GTP? Well, I guess they're not
> contaminated with complexity...

The Redline Developments GTP mod 1.1? N2003 is the only sim I know of
besides RBR that doesn't rely on lookup tables for everything, and
while I think RBR's physical modelling (i.e. of the engine components
and so forth) is much better I can't think of anything with a better
tire model than N2003/GTP. In terms of GTP vs N2003, each car has
completely unique physics, down to parts of the sim that no one outside
of RD ever dared to modify. It's not like the other mods that simply
changed engine and weight values, and placed limits on things inside
the garage menu. The tire characteristics, suspension geometry, and
aerodynamics have all been highly modified, and IMHO the end result is
fairly unique, even compared to N2003. It's also gotten really high
praise from some popular sportscar drivers.

Jason