Problems with LHS in Montreal

The car:

Chrysler LHS, Year 2000, fully loaded, owned since new - September 2000.
Mileage: 55,000 km / about 35,000 miles.
Maintenance: with the exception of a nasty tire issue, always by one of four
Chrysler dealers - two of them now closed. Full service records on file at
home - no serious problems up to now. Oil/Filter changes, lubes and such
(always at the dealer) every 5K kilometres. Air filter changes done by me
twice.

The car is parked indoors day and night (both ends of my commute). The body
is oiled yearly - the car has led a pampered life.

Extended warranty: An aftermarket 'plan 6 - zero deductible' warranty from
PP.

The problem:

About 3 weeks ago the car started running warm. Temp gauge rose to above
the center line, would drop back down to normal when idling. I took the car
to the dealer and they diagnosed a leaking water pump. They told me my
coolant was 'dirty'. They also recommended changing the serpentine belts
(2) and insisted (against my strongly stated skepticism) on doing a 'power
flush' of the coolant. I had an oil/filter change done at the same time,
about 1000 km before it was due.

(the skepticism stems from a bad experience with crud being flushed into the
engine block on a 1972 Datsun 240Z many years ago)

They pronounced the car healthy, charged me about $200 and PPP about $600
and sent me on my way.

Arriving at home there was a strong smell of antifreeze - the following day
I noticed that the temp gauge was wandering, slightly above the center line
(previously it was about 1/3 the way up). Heading home I stopped to get my
mail (superbox) and heard my cooling fans running - temps were about -15.
Strong smell of coolant that night.

I called the dealer, they suggested bringing the car back in and they
diagnosed 'air in the cooling system' - they bled the system and, because I
was there I had them flush and refill the transmission for another $100.
They again sent me on my way.

The following day, still the smell of hot coolant after parking and a
wandering temp gauge (no obvious leaks, by the way) - I had spoken with the
service adviser previously and called again on the 21st and spoke with the
service advisor at the dealer because I was planning to take my son
snowboarding the next day and was concerned about the problem - his
assurance: "Don't worry about it. It can't be serious. We'll find the
problem. You have a warranty . Take your son skiing."

On the way home from work that night the car started seriously warming up. I
took photos of the temp gauge with my cell phone and called the shop - they
told me to bring the car in, that they would share the cost of renting a car
with me and would solve the problem.

The gauge continued to climb - and eventually hit the 'red zone'. So I shut
the engine off, let it cool down for a while then restarted. I drove a few
blocks and shut it down again. I repeated the process a number of times
until I got to the dealer. At no time did the gauge go to the top of the red
zone - I do have a photo (I own a camera phone) of as high as it went.

Dealer issued a 50/50 purchase order and I rented a car to drive. I was
told on the 23rd that they replaced the radiator with authorisation from PPP
the previous day. Apparently that did not solve the problem. They wanted
to open the head and look for a cracked head gasket and had filed the
request with PPP. Dealer reported that PPP insisted on inspecting the car
prior to authorising further work - this on the 23rd.

On the 24th I was skiing with my son again and was told by the dealer that
PPP could not inspect the car before the following Monday (the 28th), a full
week after it was brought to the dealer and 5 working days after the problem
was reported to PPP. Since PPP pays for only 7 days of rental - and their
delay would be 6 days - this was unacceptable to me and I called and spoke
with PPP - the discussion was not pleasant. They insisted that the 7 day
limit is to give THEM time to inspect - my impression was that they limit
was to protect them in the case where parts might be on backorder and that
they have an obligation to be responsive!!!

Aparently they showed up on the 28th, gave the permission to pull the head
and went back to see the car on the 1st (Tuesday). I was given a call by
the dealer and told that:

- There is some dark 'gluey' substance that is completely blocking the
coolant plumbing in the head
- It seems that someone 'might have' put a foreign substance into the
coolant which congealed in the head
- The head can be cleaned out, but PPP will likely deny paying, not only for
the repair, but for the car rental and previously authorised-by-them
radiator and other work.
- I should come in and sign authorisation for them to proceed (even though
apparently PPP has yet to formally deny the claim).

I have spoken with a number of mechanics. They tell me that the diagnostic
sequence done by the dealer was correct - but that there are some very
plausible potential explanations for the problem:

- A cracked head gasket is apparently fairly common. Oil leaking into the
coolant as a result is apparently pretty common on the 3.5L-V6 Chrysler
engine - but there was no report of oil in the original coolant when the
water pump was changed - just that the coolant was 'dirty'. I've heard no
mention of oil in the new coolant either. If there was a contaminant, you'd
expect that the mechanic doing the work would have noticed either with the
first drain - or with the second.
- There was no smell of coolant until AFTER the water pump change.
- Apparently the transmission cooler plumbing runs INSIDE the antifreeze. If
there was a leak, that might explain the contamination, though the mechanic
who suggested that as a possibility said that he'd never heard of it
happening before.

The car was sitting at the dealer with the head off. I was invited to 'look
at the car' and have to authorise the repair - estimated at $3,000.
Obviously I am not happy to be asked to do this and to pay for several weeks
of car rental.

The dealer will not support me in any way - they will not get the substance
analysed. The fact is that the only fluid ever put under the hood of my car
by someone other than a Five-Star Chrysler mechanic at a dealership was
windshield washer fluid - by me - and I KNOW where that goes.

The head gasket (and apparently the head and block) are reportedly just
fine.

Yesterday morning I went by the dealer and authorised the repair 'under
protest' and 'without prejudice'.

They told me the 'gooey' substance had 'disappeared', but there is a brown
almost powdery substance remaining (presumably the moisture in the goo
evaporated). I took a couple of pictures and collected a sample of the
powder in a sterile container.

The powder was blocking screens that seem to be installed in the head
gasket, preventing coolant flow - they believe that the foreign substance
was introduced by persons unknown and collected in the head as goo.

Someone at the office suggested that this could be a condensate from a
reaction to a coolant chemistry change with the flush . . . someone else
suggested that the powder is aluminum that was in suspension and that came
from the deteriorated water pump.

I've done nothing obviously wrong and one would imagine that the warranty
OUGHT to cover anything that isn't patently abuse. I am looking for
suggestions as to just what went wrong in my car and how to get the warranty
group to hold up their end of the deal - or even get Chrysler to cover the
costs - yes, the car is past the warranty period, but the mileage is very
low and the car was maintained by their dealers to their specifications.

Anyone have any suggestions?

"HaroldB" > wrote in message
...
> The car:
>
> Chrysler LHS, Year 2000, fully loaded, owned since new - September 2000.
> Mileage: 55,000 km / about 35,000 miles.
> Maintenance: with the exception of a nasty tire issue, always by one of
four
> Chrysler dealers - two of them now closed. Full service records on file
at
> home - no serious problems up to now. Oil/Filter changes, lubes and such
> (always at the dealer) every 5K kilometres. Air filter changes done by me
> twice.
>
> The car is parked indoors day and night (both ends of my commute). The
body
> is oiled yearly - the car has led a pampered life.
>
> Extended warranty: An aftermarket 'plan 6 - zero deductible' warranty
from
> PP.
>
> The problem:
>
> About 3 weeks ago the car started running warm. Temp gauge rose to above
> the center line, would drop back down to normal when idling. I took the
car
> to the dealer and they diagnosed a leaking water pump. They told me my
> coolant was 'dirty'. They also recommended changing the serpentine belts
> (2) and insisted (against my strongly stated skepticism) on doing a 'power
> flush' of the coolant. I had an oil/filter change done at the same time,
> about 1000 km before it was due.
>
> (the skepticism stems from a bad experience with crud being flushed into
the
> engine block on a 1972 Datsun 240Z many years ago)
>
> They pronounced the car healthy, charged me about $200 and PPP about $600
> and sent me on my way.
>
> Arriving at home there was a strong smell of antifreeze - the following
day
> I noticed that the temp gauge was wandering, slightly above the center
line
> (previously it was about 1/3 the way up). Heading home I stopped to get
my
> mail (superbox) and heard my cooling fans running - temps were about -15.
> Strong smell of coolant that night.
>
> I called the dealer, they suggested bringing the car back in and they
> diagnosed 'air in the cooling system' - they bled the system and, because
I
> was there I had them flush and refill the transmission for another $100.
> They again sent me on my way.
>
> The following day, still the smell of hot coolant after parking and a
> wandering temp gauge (no obvious leaks, by the way) - I had spoken with
the
> service adviser previously and called again on the 21st and spoke with the
> service advisor at the dealer because I was planning to take my son
> snowboarding the next day and was concerned about the problem - his
> assurance: "Don't worry about it. It can't be serious. We'll find the
> problem. You have a warranty . Take your son skiing."
>
> On the way home from work that night the car started seriously warming up.
I
> took photos of the temp gauge with my cell phone and called the shop -
they
> told me to bring the car in, that they would share the cost of renting a
car
> with me and would solve the problem.
>
> The gauge continued to climb - and eventually hit the 'red zone'. So I
shut
> the engine off, let it cool down for a while then restarted. I drove a
few
> blocks and shut it down again. I repeated the process a number of times
> until I got to the dealer. At no time did the gauge go to the top of the
red
> zone - I do have a photo (I own a camera phone) of as high as it went.
>
> Dealer issued a 50/50 purchase order and I rented a car to drive. I was
> told on the 23rd that they replaced the radiator with authorisation from
PPP
> the previous day. Apparently that did not solve the problem. They wanted
> to open the head and look for a cracked head gasket and had filed the
> request with PPP. Dealer reported that PPP insisted on inspecting the car
> prior to authorising further work - this on the 23rd.
>
> On the 24th I was skiing with my son again and was told by the dealer that
> PPP could not inspect the car before the following Monday (the 28th), a
full
> week after it was brought to the dealer and 5 working days after the
problem
> was reported to PPP. Since PPP pays for only 7 days of rental - and their
> delay would be 6 days - this was unacceptable to me and I called and spoke
> with PPP - the discussion was not pleasant. They insisted that the 7 day
> limit is to give THEM time to inspect - my impression was that they limit
> was to protect them in the case where parts might be on backorder and that
> they have an obligation to be responsive!!!
>
> Aparently they showed up on the 28th, gave the permission to pull the head
> and went back to see the car on the 1st (Tuesday). I was given a call by
> the dealer and told that:
>
> - There is some dark 'gluey' substance that is completely blocking the
> coolant plumbing in the head
> - It seems that someone 'might have' put a foreign substance into the
> coolant which congealed in the head
> - The head can be cleaned out, but PPP will likely deny paying, not only
for
> the repair, but for the car rental and previously authorised-by-them
> radiator and other work.
> - I should come in and sign authorisation for them to proceed (even though
> apparently PPP has yet to formally deny the claim).
>
> I have spoken with a number of mechanics. They tell me that the
diagnostic
> sequence done by the dealer was correct - but that there are some very
> plausible potential explanations for the problem:
>
> - A cracked head gasket is apparently fairly common. Oil leaking into the
> coolant as a result is apparently pretty common on the 3.5L-V6 Chrysler
> engine - but there was no report of oil in the original coolant when the
> water pump was changed - just that the coolant was 'dirty'. I've heard no
> mention of oil in the new coolant either. If there was a contaminant,
you'd
> expect that the mechanic doing the work would have noticed either with the
> first drain - or with the second.
> - There was no smell of coolant until AFTER the water pump change.
> - Apparently the transmission cooler plumbing runs INSIDE the antifreeze.
If
> there was a leak, that might explain the contamination, though the
mechanic
> who suggested that as a possibility said that he'd never heard of it
> happening before.
>
> The car was sitting at the dealer with the head off. I was invited to
'look
> at the car' and have to authorise the repair - estimated at $3,000.
> Obviously I am not happy to be asked to do this and to pay for several
weeks
> of car rental.
>
> The dealer will not support me in any way - they will not get the
substance
> analysed. The fact is that the only fluid ever put under the hood of my
car
> by someone other than a Five-Star Chrysler mechanic at a dealership was
> windshield washer fluid - by me - and I KNOW where that goes.
>
> The head gasket (and apparently the head and block) are reportedly just
> fine.
>
> Yesterday morning I went by the dealer and authorised the repair 'under
> protest' and 'without prejudice'.
>
> They told me the 'gooey' substance had 'disappeared', but there is a brown
> almost powdery substance remaining (presumably the moisture in the goo
> evaporated). I took a couple of pictures and collected a sample of the
> powder in a sterile container.
>
> The powder was blocking screens that seem to be installed in the head
> gasket, preventing coolant flow - they believe that the foreign substance
> was introduced by persons unknown and collected in the head as goo.
>
> Someone at the office suggested that this could be a condensate from a
> reaction to a coolant chemistry change with the flush . . . someone else
> suggested that the powder is aluminum that was in suspension and that came
> from the deteriorated water pump.
>
> I've done nothing obviously wrong and one would imagine that the warranty
> OUGHT to cover anything that isn't patently abuse. I am looking for
> suggestions as to just what went wrong in my car and how to get the
warranty
> group to hold up their end of the deal - or even get Chrysler to cover the
> costs - yes, the car is past the warranty period, but the mileage is very
> low and the car was maintained by their dealers to their specifications.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions?

If you are gonna buy a service contract, buy the one that the manufacturer
sells, The dealer will not have fluid sent out for inspection, It sounds to
me like someone may have put a stop leak in the system for a possible leak?
and in all honesty the 3.5 does not have head gasket or head problems,
Normally if the head gasket/head fails its because the vehicle was severely
overheated, possibly by a loss of coolant (water pump leak) and vehicle kept
driving. or Radiator fan inop.
You keep saying you smelled a strong smell of coolant, did you ever see any
leaks after the pump was replaced? If the overflow bottle cap seal is
cracked it will cause this vehicle to loose coolant and possibly overheat,
that will leave coolant on the right side frame rail.

> The head gasket (and apparently the head and block) are reportedly just
> fine.

No where was it mentioned that the thermostat was checked before the heads
were pulled??? sounds like you may have problems when they reassemble it, I
would tell them to put a thermostat in it while it is there. ask them for
the old part back and test it yourself

good luck
Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

"maxpower" > wrote in
:
>
> No where was it mentioned that the thermostat was checked before the
> heads were pulled??? sounds like you may have problems when they
> reassemble it, I would tell them to put a thermostat in it while it is
> there. ask them for the old part back and test it yourself
>
> good luck
> Glenn Beasley
> Chrysler Tech
>

Glenn;

They replaced the thermostat at the same time as the pump - and then again
when they were diagnosing the overheat and changed the radiator. I'll ask
for all parts I'm buying when it is ready tomorrow.

I found a lab that will analyse the residue - but interesting enough there
was NO smell of coolant before they changed the water pump - and no visual
clues - but it is damp and wet up here in the winter time, so the ground
below cars is always wet.

Interesting that when the warranty company blew me off, they said something
about leak-stop - and someone else mentioned it as well. All the more
interesting because the car never suffered any leaks or coolant losses
before this and no one has touched the cooling system before now . . . I
really want to know what this stuff is. If it's a sealant of some sort,
then the question becomes "how did it get into my car"?

Had there been leak stop in the car beforehand, shouldn't it have been blown
out by the power flush?

Lots of questions. No answers.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, HaroldB wrote:

> Chrysler LHS, Year 2000, fully loaded, owned since new - September 2000.
> Mileage: 55,000 km / about 35,000 miles. Maintenance: with the exception
> of a nasty tire issue, always by one of four Chrysler dealers - two of
> them now closed. Full service records on file at home - no serious
> problems up to now. Oil/Filter changes, lubes and such (always at the
> dealer) every 5K kilometres. Air filter changes done by me twice.

8< 8= 8< 8= 8< 8=
Long and painful story
8< 8= 8< 8= 8< 8=

> They told me the 'gooey' substance had 'disappeared', but there is a brown
> almost powdery substance remaining (presumably the moisture in the goo
> evaporated). I took a couple of pictures and collected a sample of the
> powder in a sterile container.

Good idea. The description sounds a lot like a product known as "BAR'S
LEAKS" [sic], which is a cooling system stop-leak product that has been on
the market for many decades. It's beyond my comprehension that anyone
thinks it's wise or helpful to pour this brown-pebbles-in-brown-syrup
gookum into any cooling system made after about 1955, but people do.
Mechanics, even, sometimes, if they think it might "fix" a leak long
enough for the repair to get paid for.

> Someone at the office suggested that this could be a condensate from a
> reaction to a coolant chemistry change with the flush

Doubtful.

> suggested that the powder is aluminum that was in suspension and that
> came from the deteriorated water pump.

Also doubtful.

Note, automatic transmission fluid coolers have been installed in the
radiator coolant tanks for many decades, and sometimes they do fail,
allowing trans fluid into the cooling system. The result is milky orange
coolant, not brown goo or powder.

"HaroldB" > wrote in message
...
> "maxpower" > wrote in
> :
> >
> > No where was it mentioned that the thermostat was checked before the
> > heads were pulled??? sounds like you may have problems when they
> > reassemble it, I would tell them to put a thermostat in it while it is
> > there. ask them for the old part back and test it yourself
> >
> > good luck
> > Glenn Beasley
> > Chrysler Tech
> >
>
> Glenn;
>
> They replaced the thermostat at the same time as the pump - and then again
> when they were diagnosing the overheat and changed the radiator. I'll ask
> for all parts I'm buying when it is ready tomorrow.
>
> I found a lab that will analyse the residue - but interesting enough there
> was NO smell of coolant before they changed the water pump - and no visual
> clues - but it is damp and wet up here in the winter time, so the ground
> below cars is always wet.
>
> Interesting that when the warranty company blew me off, they said
something
> about leak-stop - and someone else mentioned it as well. All the more
> interesting because the car never suffered any leaks or coolant losses
> before this and no one has touched the cooling system before now . . . I
> really want to know what this stuff is. If it's a sealant of some sort,
> then the question becomes "how did it get into my car"?
>
> Had there been leak stop in the car beforehand, shouldn't it have been
blown
> out by the power flush?
>
> Lots of questions. No answers.

Without seeing the stuff you are refering to, I would not think that is what
caused your problem. Keep in mind when they cast the block and do all the
machining there is some residue in the system that lots like gooo. most of
the time it is seen in the overflow bottle and the owners ask questions
about it, If it is a stop leak, maybe the tech knew there was a leak
somewhere and added it?

HaroldB wrote:
> "maxpower" > wrote in
> :
>
>>No where was it mentioned that the thermostat was checked before the
>>heads were pulled??? sounds like you may have problems when they
>>reassemble it, I would tell them to put a thermostat in it while it is
>>there. ask them for the old part back and test it yourself
>>
>>good luck
>>Glenn Beasley
>>Chrysler Tech
>>
>
>
> Glenn;
>
> They replaced the thermostat at the same time as the pump - and then again
> when they were diagnosing the overheat and changed the radiator. I'll ask
> for all parts I'm buying when it is ready tomorrow.
>
> I found a lab that will analyse the residue - but interesting enough there
> was NO smell of coolant before they changed the water pump - and no visual
> clues - but it is damp and wet up here in the winter time, so the ground
> below cars is always wet.
>
> Interesting that when the warranty company blew me off, they said something
> about leak-stop - and someone else mentioned it as well. All the more
> interesting because the car never suffered any leaks or coolant losses
> before this and no one has touched the cooling system before now . . . I
> really want to know what this stuff is. If it's a sealant of some sort,
> then the question becomes "how did it get into my car"?
>
> Had there been leak stop in the car beforehand, shouldn't it have been blown
> out by the power flush?
>
> Lots of questions. No answers.

Had the coolant ever been changed? I ask because if someone put the
DexCool™/Prestone Extended Life™ in it, I understand that it can form a
gooey residue when it gets old and the pH gets off. Not saying that
this is the explanation for your car - just one more possibility.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

That is why I only buy manufacturer brand extended service agreements and
have the car only serviced at the dealer while the service agreement is
pending. No ifs, ands or buts.... they got to fix it.

Sounds like this thread may be in danger of sinking into blathering about
the warranty and the dealer. I think it would be more fun to figure out what
the original problem was.

The issue of getting hot while driving and cooling back down while idling is
kind of odd. One thing that does fit that, however, is a collapsing lower
radiator hose.You'd think the pressure in the system would prevent that, but
it doesn't - They were made with steel springs in them for 100 years.

One thing's for sure. It sure wasn't the water pump or the radiator.

If the O.P. doesn't work on his own car, the best we'll ever get here is 2nd
hand info on what's been done,. and now the car's all apart, so I'm not too
optimistic.