overpowering the brakes with the engine

On Oct 13, 12:10*am, richard > wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:12:04 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> > Much discussion in the Toyota deathmobile thread of this. *What many
> > people are not accounting for is the element of time. *I believe it's
> > correct that if you stomp down hard when the engine is in runaway mode
> > you can make the car stop. *For that scenario to work you must not
> > diddle around trying to stop, letting up, picking up speed again and
> > then trying to stop again. *You have to make the stop NOW. *If you
> > only make halfhearted or repetitive attempts to stop the car you will
> > just heat the brakes up. *The engine is going to produce power as long
> > as it's running and the longer you drag out the braking the more power
> > the brakes must dissipate. *I think that is most likely the reason,
> > assuming it's even true, that there were "flames" claimed to be coming
> > from the deathmobile wheels and that it eventually ran up to 120 mph.
> > Once you let the brakes get too hot it's all over.
>
> Brakes will heat up and catch fire at ANY speed. It's just a matter of
> time.
> As a former truck driver, I have witnessed to many times where the fools
> will ride their brakes down a long mountain grade. Before they hit the
> bottom, they are on fire.
>
> In the recent Toyota case, attempting to stop with the brakes is futile.
> The pedal was jammed.
There is nothing at all in the report about the brake pedal being
jammed. I suppose it is _possible_ tht the mat bunched up under it.
The report of "flames" says the brakes were operable, dubious as that
report is.

Harry K


<snip>

Harry K

Most gearshifts have a position for "oh Nooooooooo!", or N for short,
widely said to interrupt power delivery to the wheels. The engine
will go on a spree until you figure out *that* part, but that's what
rev limiters (and, push comes to shove, powertrain warranties) are
for. Sure beats a crash, if that's the only alternative.

As for the actual question: Hmm. One of my memories of Drivers Ed
was a gentle and retiring young creature for whom an attempt at a
learner's permit constituted not only a tool for life but a form of
Women's Lib-tinged rebellion against whatever was going on home. (I
seem to recall that her mother did not want her to learn to drive, and
perhaps did not herself know how, and she was only in the class
because it was framed as a graduation requirement.)

One day, instead of recovering normally from an ordinary though sharp
right turn at low speeds, she panicked and kept the wheel hard over
and floored the gas. The car had dual brake pedals but not full dual
controls. The instructor (whose main job was football coach and who
was a pretty big guy in good shape) was getting on his brake pedal as
hard as he could, but it wasn't quite enough to overcome the mighty
smog-controlled 231 c.i.d. V-6 running wide open. It did some good
and we were going only a few mph when finally detained by a retaining
wall (too soon for him to reach over and grab Neutral -- besides
which, we were there for a lesson and I think he was hoping all the
way that she'd sort it out). However, it didn't stop the car and one
wonders if it ever would have.

The car was only trivially damaged (big ugly mid 70s bumpers to the
rescue) but Coach reluctantly concluded that her family dynamics
needed to be sorted out in some way that didn't involve a spiffy new
car that the local Buick dealer had been nice enough to loan us.

--Joe

In article
>,
XR650L_Dave > wrote:

> On Oct 13, 3:15*am, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> >
> >
> > *richard > wrote:
> > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:12:04 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> >
> > > > Much discussion in the Toyota deathmobile thread of this. *What many
> > > > people are not accounting for is the element of time. *I believe it's
> > > > correct that if you stomp down hard when the engine is in runaway mode
> > > > you can make the car stop. *For that scenario to work you must not
> > > > diddle around trying to stop, letting up, picking up speed again and
> > > > then trying to stop again. *You have to make the stop NOW. *If you
> > > > only make halfhearted or repetitive attempts to stop the car you will
> > > > just heat the brakes up. *The engine is going to produce power as long
> > > > as it's running and the longer you drag out the braking the more power
> > > > the brakes must dissipate. *I think that is most likely the reason,
> > > > assuming it's even true, that there were "flames" claimed to be coming
> > > > from the deathmobile wheels and that it eventually ran up to 120 mph.
> > > > Once you let the brakes get too hot it's all over.
> >
> > > Brakes will heat up and catch fire at ANY speed. It's just a matter of
> > > time.
> > > As a former truck driver, I have witnessed to many times where the fools
> > > will ride their brakes down a long mountain grade. Before they hit the
> > > bottom, they are on fire.
> >
> > > In the recent Toyota case, attempting to stop with the brakes is futile.
> > > The pedal was jammed. In the design of current braking systems, this
> > > extreme high speed is meaningless to the brakes.
> >
> > > What they need to do is to work in an emergency shut off switch.
> > > Perhaps a method where when a high speed is maintained over a short period
> > > of time, the transmission is kicked into neutral. With no power to the
> > > wheels, you can then apply the brakes.
> >
> > Apply brakes as hard as you can: unless they are actually defective, or
> > you're driving a nitro-methane dragster, the car will stop.
> >
> > --
> > Alan Baker
> > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> Wrong, except for cars with the smallest of engines.
>
> Try it, anything with a bigger engine than a 1982 corolla, highway,
> 65mph, floor it, and try to stop with the brakes.
> Even if you slow it a bit, the trans will downshift, and sufficient
> TORQUE will be provided at the WHEELS to cook the brakes until they
> fade, and you'll be accelerating again.
>
> I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> econo-boxes.

Nope, sorry, but you're wrong.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

On Oct 13, 2:12*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > On Oct 13, 3:15*am, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > In article >,
>
> > > *richard > wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:12:04 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> > > > > Much discussion in the Toyota deathmobile thread of this. *What many
> > > > > people are not accounting for is the element of time. *I believe it's
> > > > > correct that if you stomp down hard when the engine is in runaway mode
> > > > > you can make the car stop. *For that scenario to work you must not
> > > > > diddle around trying to stop, letting up, picking up speed again and
> > > > > then trying to stop again. *You have to make the stop NOW. *If you
> > > > > only make halfhearted or repetitive attempts to stop the car you will
> > > > > just heat the brakes up. *The engine is going to produce power as long
> > > > > as it's running and the longer you drag out the braking the more power
> > > > > the brakes must dissipate. *I think that is most likely the reason,
> > > > > assuming it's even true, that there were "flames" claimed to be coming
> > > > > from the deathmobile wheels and that it eventually ran up to 120 mph.
> > > > > Once you let the brakes get too hot it's all over.
>
> > > > Brakes will heat up and catch fire at ANY speed. It's just a matter of
> > > > time.
> > > > As a former truck driver, I have witnessed to many times where the fools
> > > > will ride their brakes down a long mountain grade. Before they hit the
> > > > bottom, they are on fire.
>
> > > > In the recent Toyota case, attempting to stop with the brakes is futile.
> > > > The pedal was jammed. In the design of current braking systems, this
> > > > extreme high speed is meaningless to the brakes.
>
> > > > What they need to do is to work in an emergency shut off switch.
> > > > Perhaps a method where when a high speed is maintained over a short period
> > > > of time, the transmission is kicked into neutral. With no power to the
> > > > wheels, you can then apply the brakes.
>
> > > Apply brakes as hard as you can: unless they are actually defective, or
> > > you're driving a nitro-methane dragster, the car will stop.
>
> > > --
> > > Alan Baker
> > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> > Wrong, except for cars with the smallest of engines.
>
> > Try it, anything with a bigger engine than a 1982 corolla, highway,
> > 65mph, floor it, and try to stop with the brakes.
> > Even if you slow it a bit, the trans will downshift, and sufficient
> > TORQUE will be provided at the WHEELS to cook the brakes until they
> > fade, and you'll be accelerating again.
>
> > I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> > are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> > econo-boxes.
>
> Nope, sorry, but you're wrong.
>
> --
> Alan Baker
> Vancouver, British Columbia
> <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

Don't hear you volunteering to do a test... you're hung up on HP
produceable by the engine vs. HP that can be dissipated in the brakes-
that's not the limiting factor.


Dave

In article >,
The Real Bev > wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > The Real Bev > wrote:
> >
> >> Alan Baker wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > The Real Bev > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Alan Baker wrote:
> >> >> <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
> >> >>
> >> >> Wow, you're really young!
> >> >
> >> > I wish...
> >>
> >> You have kids that age. That makes you young. Suck it up, Princess!
> >>
> >> You are always so serious that I thought you were older :-(
> >
> > I have kids *what* age?
> >
> > I'm sorry, Bev, but ya lost me here. How old do you now think I am?
>
> 20-30s?
>
> I looked at the ski pictures. I assume that Alan, kid1 and kid2 (can't
> remember the names) were you and your 2 kids. Hard to tell their ages, but
> they were definitely kids.
>
> I was wrong?

They're my cousin's kids, actually...

But thanks for the "20-30s" guess. I'm actually 47.

:-)

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

In article
>,
XR650L_Dave > wrote:

> On Oct 13, 2:12*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> >
> >
> >
> > *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > > On Oct 13, 3:15*am, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > > In article >,
> >
> > > > *richard > wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:12:04 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> >
> > > > > > Much discussion in the Toyota deathmobile thread of this. *What
> > > > > > many
> > > > > > people are not accounting for is the element of time. *I believe
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > correct that if you stomp down hard when the engine is in runaway
> > > > > > mode
> > > > > > you can make the car stop. *For that scenario to work you must not
> > > > > > diddle around trying to stop, letting up, picking up speed again
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > then trying to stop again. *You have to make the stop NOW. *If you
> > > > > > only make halfhearted or repetitive attempts to stop the car you
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > just heat the brakes up. *The engine is going to produce power as
> > > > > > long
> > > > > > as it's running and the longer you drag out the braking the more
> > > > > > power
> > > > > > the brakes must dissipate. *I think that is most likely the reason,
> > > > > > assuming it's even true, that there were "flames" claimed to be
> > > > > > coming
> > > > > > from the deathmobile wheels and that it eventually ran up to 120
> > > > > > mph.
> > > > > > Once you let the brakes get too hot it's all over.
> >
> > > > > Brakes will heat up and catch fire at ANY speed. It's just a matter
> > > > > of
> > > > > time.
> > > > > As a former truck driver, I have witnessed to many times where the
> > > > > fools
> > > > > will ride their brakes down a long mountain grade. Before they hit
> > > > > the
> > > > > bottom, they are on fire.
> >
> > > > > In the recent Toyota case, attempting to stop with the brakes is
> > > > > futile.
> > > > > The pedal was jammed. In the design of current braking systems, this
> > > > > extreme high speed is meaningless to the brakes.
> >
> > > > > What they need to do is to work in an emergency shut off switch.
> > > > > Perhaps a method where when a high speed is maintained over a short
> > > > > period
> > > > > of time, the transmission is kicked into neutral. With no power to
> > > > > the
> > > > > wheels, you can then apply the brakes.
> >
> > > > Apply brakes as hard as you can: unless they are actually defective, or
> > > > you're driving a nitro-methane dragster, the car will stop.
> >
> > > > --
> > > > Alan Baker
> > > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
> >
> > > Wrong, except for cars with the smallest of engines.
> >
> > > Try it, anything with a bigger engine than a 1982 corolla, highway,
> > > 65mph, floor it, and try to stop with the brakes.
> > > Even if you slow it a bit, the trans will downshift, and sufficient
> > > TORQUE will be provided at the WHEELS to cook the brakes until they
> > > fade, and you'll be accelerating again.
> >
> > > I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> > > are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> > > econo-boxes.
> >
> > Nope, sorry, but you're wrong.
> >
> > --
> > Alan Baker
> > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> Don't hear you volunteering to do a test... you're hung up on HP
> produceable by the engine vs. HP that can be dissipated in the brakes-
> that's not the limiting factor.
>
>
> Dave

<sigh>

Ask yourself this:

Can the engine spin the wheels at highway speeds? No.

Can the brakes lock the wheels at any time?

Think about it.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

On Oct 13, 8:46*am, XR650L_Dave > wrote:
>
> I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> econo-boxes.

Or, as usual, you don't know what the **** you're talking about.
-----

- gpsman

On Oct 13, 3:20*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > On Oct 13, 2:12*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
>
> > > *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 13, 3:15*am, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > > > In article >,
>
> > > > > *richard > wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:12:04 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Much discussion in the Toyota deathmobile thread of this. *What
> > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > people are not accounting for is the element of time. *I believe
> > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > correct that if you stomp down hard when the engine is in runaway
> > > > > > > mode
> > > > > > > you can make the car stop. *For that scenario to work you must not
> > > > > > > diddle around trying to stop, letting up, picking up speed again
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > then trying to stop again. *You have to make the stop NOW. *If you
> > > > > > > only make halfhearted or repetitive attempts to stop the car you
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > just heat the brakes up. *The engine is going to produce power as
> > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > as it's running and the longer you drag out the braking the more
> > > > > > > power
> > > > > > > the brakes must dissipate. *I think that is most likely the reason,
> > > > > > > assuming it's even true, that there were "flames" claimed to be
> > > > > > > coming
> > > > > > > from the deathmobile wheels and that it eventually ran up to 120
> > > > > > > mph.
> > > > > > > Once you let the brakes get too hot it's all over.
>
> > > > > > Brakes will heat up and catch fire at ANY speed. It's just a matter
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > time.
> > > > > > As a former truck driver, I have witnessed to many times where the
> > > > > > fools
> > > > > > will ride their brakes down a long mountain grade. Before they hit
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > bottom, they are on fire.
>
> > > > > > In the recent Toyota case, attempting to stop with the brakes is
> > > > > > futile.
> > > > > > The pedal was jammed. In the design of current braking systems, this
> > > > > > extreme high speed is meaningless to the brakes.
>
> > > > > > What they need to do is to work in an emergency shut off switch..
> > > > > > Perhaps a method where when a high speed is maintained over a short
> > > > > > period
> > > > > > of time, the transmission is kicked into neutral. With no power to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > wheels, you can then apply the brakes.
>
> > > > > Apply brakes as hard as you can: unless they are actually defective, or
> > > > > you're driving a nitro-methane dragster, the car will stop.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > Alan Baker
> > > > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> > > > Wrong, except for cars with the smallest of engines.
>
> > > > Try it, anything with a bigger engine than a 1982 corolla, highway,
> > > > 65mph, floor it, and try to stop with the brakes.
> > > > Even if you slow it a bit, the trans will downshift, and sufficient
> > > > TORQUE will be provided at the WHEELS to cook the brakes until they
> > > > fade, and you'll be accelerating again.
>
> > > > I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> > > > are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> > > > econo-boxes.
>
> > > Nope, sorry, but you're wrong.
>
> > > --
> > > Alan Baker
> > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> > Don't hear you volunteering to do a test... you're hung up on HP
> > produceable by the engine vs. HP that can be dissipated in the brakes-
> > that's not the limiting factor.
>
> > Dave
>
> <sigh>
>
> Ask yourself this:
>
> Can the engine spin the wheels at highway speeds? No.
>
> Can the brakes lock the wheels at any time?
>
> Think about it.
>
> --
> Alan Baker
> Vancouver, British Columbia
> <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

Still the wrong questions.

If it's dry on the way home I'll do a quick test with my subaru-
65mph, floor gas, nail brakes. I'm not willing to cook my brakes but
I'll work 'em a bit.


Dave

On Oct 13, 3:43*pm, gpsman > wrote:
> On Oct 13, 8:46*am, XR650L_Dave > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> > are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> > econo-boxes.
>
> Or, as usual, you don't know what the **** you're talking about.
> *-----
>
> - gpsman

Contributing absolutely zero as usual, I see.

****in' useless troll.

I happen to know quite a bit about all the engineering/physics/
thermodynamics of what's going on in the suggested situation.

Dave

In article
>,
XR650L_Dave > wrote:

> On Oct 13, 3:20*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> >
> >
> >
> > *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > > On Oct 13, 2:12*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> >
> > > > *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 13, 3:15*am, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > > > > In article >,
> >
> > > > > > *richard > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:12:04 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > Much discussion in the Toyota deathmobile thread of this. *What
> > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > people are not accounting for is the element of time. *I
> > > > > > > > believe
> > > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > correct that if you stomp down hard when the engine is in
> > > > > > > > runaway
> > > > > > > > mode
> > > > > > > > you can make the car stop. *For that scenario to work you must
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > diddle around trying to stop, letting up, picking up speed
> > > > > > > > again
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > then trying to stop again. *You have to make the stop NOW. *If
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > only make halfhearted or repetitive attempts to stop the car
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > just heat the brakes up. *The engine is going to produce power
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > as it's running and the longer you drag out the braking the
> > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > power
> > > > > > > > the brakes must dissipate. *I think that is most likely the
> > > > > > > > reason,
> > > > > > > > assuming it's even true, that there were "flames" claimed to be
> > > > > > > > coming
> > > > > > > > from the deathmobile wheels and that it eventually ran up to
> > > > > > > > 120
> > > > > > > > mph.
> > > > > > > > Once you let the brakes get too hot it's all over.
> >
> > > > > > > Brakes will heat up and catch fire at ANY speed. It's just a
> > > > > > > matter
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > As a former truck driver, I have witnessed to many times where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fools
> > > > > > > will ride their brakes down a long mountain grade. Before they
> > > > > > > hit
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > bottom, they are on fire.
> >
> > > > > > > In the recent Toyota case, attempting to stop with the brakes is
> > > > > > > futile.
> > > > > > > The pedal was jammed. In the design of current braking systems,
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > extreme high speed is meaningless to the brakes.
> >
> > > > > > > What they need to do is to work in an emergency shut off switch.
> > > > > > > Perhaps a method where when a high speed is maintained over a
> > > > > > > short
> > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > of time, the transmission is kicked into neutral. With no power
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > wheels, you can then apply the brakes.
> >
> > > > > > Apply brakes as hard as you can: unless they are actually
> > > > > > defective, or
> > > > > > you're driving a nitro-methane dragster, the car will stop.
> >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Alan Baker
> > > > > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > > > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
> >
> > > > > Wrong, except for cars with the smallest of engines.
> >
> > > > > Try it, anything with a bigger engine than a 1982 corolla, highway,
> > > > > 65mph, floor it, and try to stop with the brakes.
> > > > > Even if you slow it a bit, the trans will downshift, and sufficient
> > > > > TORQUE will be provided at the WHEELS to cook the brakes until they
> > > > > fade, and you'll be accelerating again.
> >
> > > > > I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> > > > > are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> > > > > econo-boxes.
> >
> > > > Nope, sorry, but you're wrong.
> >
> > > > --
> > > > Alan Baker
> > > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
> >
> > > Don't hear you volunteering to do a test... you're hung up on HP
> > > produceable by the engine vs. HP that can be dissipated in the brakes-
> > > that's not the limiting factor.
> >
> > > Dave
> >
> > <sigh>
> >
> > Ask yourself this:
> >
> > Can the engine spin the wheels at highway speeds? No.
> >
> > Can the brakes lock the wheels at any time?
> >
> > Think about it.
> >
> > --
> > Alan Baker
> > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> Still the wrong questions.

Explain why you think that is?

There is a certain force required to overcome static friction between
the tires and road. If the engine cannot produce that much force there,
and the brakes can...

>
> If it's dry on the way home I'll do a quick test with my subaru-
> 65mph, floor gas, nail brakes. I'm not willing to cook my brakes but
> I'll work 'em a bit.

Good.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>