overpowering the brakes with the engine

In article
>,
XR650L_Dave > wrote:

> On Oct 13, 3:43*pm, gpsman > wrote:
> > On Oct 13, 8:46*am, XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> > > are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> > > econo-boxes.
> >
> > Or, as usual, you don't know what the **** you're talking about.
> > *-----
> >
> > - gpsman
>
> Contributing absolutely zero as usual, I see.
>
> ****in' useless troll.
>
> I happen to know quite a bit about all the engineering/physics/
> thermodynamics of what's going on in the suggested situation.
>
> Dave

So what is going on?

Explain it.. ..if you can.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

On Oct 13, 5:29*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > On Oct 13, 3:20*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
>
> > > *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 13, 2:12*pm, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > >,
>
> > > > > *XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> > > > > > On Oct 13, 3:15*am, Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > > > > > In article >,
>
> > > > > > > *richard > wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:12:04 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Much discussion in the Toyota deathmobile thread of this. *What
> > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > people are not accounting for is the element of time. *I
> > > > > > > > > believe
> > > > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > correct that if you stomp down hard when the engine is in
> > > > > > > > > runaway
> > > > > > > > > mode
> > > > > > > > > you can make the car stop. *For that scenario to work you must
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > diddle around trying to stop, letting up, picking up speed
> > > > > > > > > again
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > then trying to stop again. *You have to make the stop NOW. *If
> > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > only make halfhearted or repetitive attempts to stop the car
> > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > just heat the brakes up. *The engine is going to produce power
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > > as it's running and the longer you drag out the braking the
> > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > power
> > > > > > > > > the brakes must dissipate. *I think that is most likely the
> > > > > > > > > reason,
> > > > > > > > > assuming it's even true, that there were "flames" claimed to be
> > > > > > > > > coming
> > > > > > > > > from the deathmobile wheels and that it eventually ran up to
> > > > > > > > > 120
> > > > > > > > > mph.
> > > > > > > > > Once you let the brakes get too hot it's all over.
>
> > > > > > > > Brakes will heat up and catch fire at ANY speed. It's just a
> > > > > > > > matter
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > As a former truck driver, I have witnessed to many times where
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > fools
> > > > > > > > will ride their brakes down a long mountain grade. Before they
> > > > > > > > hit
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > bottom, they are on fire.
>
> > > > > > > > In the recent Toyota case, attempting to stop with the brakes is
> > > > > > > > futile.
> > > > > > > > The pedal was jammed. In the design of current braking systems,
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > extreme high speed is meaningless to the brakes.
>
> > > > > > > > What they need to do is to work in an emergency shut off switch.
> > > > > > > > Perhaps a method where when a high speed is maintained over a
> > > > > > > > short
> > > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > of time, the transmission is kicked into neutral. With no power
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > wheels, you can then apply the brakes.
>
> > > > > > > Apply brakes as hard as you can: unless they are actually
> > > > > > > defective, or
> > > > > > > you're driving a nitro-methane dragster, the car will stop.
>
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Alan Baker
> > > > > > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > > > > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> > > > > > Wrong, except for cars with the smallest of engines.
>
> > > > > > Try it, anything with a bigger engine than a 1982 corolla, highway,
> > > > > > 65mph, floor it, and try to stop with the brakes.
> > > > > > Even if you slow it a bit, the trans will downshift, and sufficient
> > > > > > TORQUE will be provided at the WHEELS to cook the brakes until they
> > > > > > fade, and you'll be accelerating again.
>
> > > > > > I think you've been driving something with a tiny engine so long you
> > > > > > are not aware of the recent uptick in engine output even for many
> > > > > > econo-boxes.
>
> > > > > Nope, sorry, but you're wrong.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > Alan Baker
> > > > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> > > > Don't hear you volunteering to do a test... you're hung up on HP
> > > > produceable by the engine vs. HP that can be dissipated in the brakes-
> > > > that's not the limiting factor.
>
> > > > Dave
>
> > > <sigh>
>
> > > Ask yourself this:
>
> > > Can the engine spin the wheels at highway speeds? No.
>
> > > Can the brakes lock the wheels at any time?
>
> > > Think about it.
>
> > > --
> > > Alan Baker
> > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> > Still the wrong questions.
>
> Explain why you think that is?
>
> There is a certain force required to overcome static friction between
> the tires and road. If the engine cannot produce that much force there,
> and the brakes can...
>
>
>
> > If it's dry on the way home I'll do a quick test with my subaru-
> > 65mph, floor gas, nail brakes. I'm not willing to cook my brakes but
> > I'll work 'em a bit.
>
> Good.
>
> --
> Alan Baker
> Vancouver, British Columbia
> <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

See new thread.

Brakes lost.


Dave

Alan Baker wrote:

> They're my cousin's kids, actually...
>
> But thanks for the "20-30s" guess. I'm actually 47.

Congrats!

--
Cheers, Bev
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """
"We're from the Government. We're here to help."

On Oct 13, 4:39*pm, XR650L_Dave > wrote:
>
> If it's dry on the way home I'll do a quick test with my subaru-
> 65mph, floor gas, nail brakes.

Great! If you have the slightest shred of capacity for embarrassment
that ought to shut you the **** up for awhile.

If you'd ever done any severe trail-braking in a FWD car you'd have
had an opportunity to learn something about the balance of influence
between engine and brakes (and brake fade).

Serviceable brakes win, it's not even remotely close.

The source the OP suggested re fade I think might also have been
exacerbated due to the seemingly increasing tendency of drivers to
operate in manners which require (and/or induce in other drivers)
frequent braking at speed.

It is common for drivers to approach traffic to the front at speed
with a +15-25 mph speed differential and stay on the throttle until
just before a brake application is required to (often barely) avoid a
collision.

Then, often, if the rear bumper of the vehicle ahead in the adjacent
lane is forward of the bumper they are fixated upon, and there is
sufficient space to miss colliding with the driver tailgating that
vehicle, they change lanes.

In addition to the stupidity seemingly induced by getting behind the
wheel, stupid people are steering around at speed with hot brakes.

I wonder how brake fade might be contributing to RLC and other rear-
end crashes.
-----

- gpsman

On Oct 15, 1:26*am, gpsman > wrote:
> On Oct 13, 4:39*pm, XR650L_Dave > wrote:
>
>
>
> > If it's dry on the way home I'll do a quick test with my subaru-
> > 65mph, floor gas, nail brakes.
>
> Great! *If you have the slightest shred of capacity for embarrassment
> that ought to shut you the **** up for awhile.
>
> If you'd ever done any severe trail-braking in a FWD car you'd have
> had an opportunity to learn something about the balance of influence
> between engine and brakes (and brake fade).
>
> Serviceable brakes win, it's not even remotely close.
>
> The source the OP suggested re fade I think might also have been
> exacerbated due to the seemingly increasing tendency of drivers to
> operate in manners which require (and/or induce in other drivers)
> frequent braking at speed.
>
> It is common for drivers to approach traffic to the front at speed
> with a +15-25 mph speed differential and stay on the throttle until
> just before a brake application is required to (often barely) avoid a
> collision.
>
> Then, often, if the rear bumper of the vehicle ahead in the adjacent
> lane is forward of the bumper they are fixated upon, and there is
> sufficient space to miss colliding with the driver tailgating that
> vehicle, they change lanes.
>
> In addition to the stupidity seemingly induced by getting behind the
> wheel, stupid people are steering around at speed with hot brakes.
>
> I wonder how brake fade might be contributing to RLC and other rear-
> end crashes.
> *-----
>
> - gpsman

Looks like the ****ing trolling **** should have read the other
****ing thread first.



Dave

In article
>,
XR650L_Dave > wrote:

> On Oct 15, 1:26*am, gpsman > wrote:
> > On Oct 13, 4:39*pm, XR650L_Dave > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > If it's dry on the way home I'll do a quick test with my subaru-
> > > 65mph, floor gas, nail brakes.
> >
> > Great! *If you have the slightest shred of capacity for embarrassment
> > that ought to shut you the **** up for awhile.
> >
> > If you'd ever done any severe trail-braking in a FWD car you'd have
> > had an opportunity to learn something about the balance of influence
> > between engine and brakes (and brake fade).
> >
> > Serviceable brakes win, it's not even remotely close.
> >
> > The source the OP suggested re fade I think might also have been
> > exacerbated due to the seemingly increasing tendency of drivers to
> > operate in manners which require (and/or induce in other drivers)
> > frequent braking at speed.
> >
> > It is common for drivers to approach traffic to the front at speed
> > with a +15-25 mph speed differential and stay on the throttle until
> > just before a brake application is required to (often barely) avoid a
> > collision.
> >
> > Then, often, if the rear bumper of the vehicle ahead in the adjacent
> > lane is forward of the bumper they are fixated upon, and there is
> > sufficient space to miss colliding with the driver tailgating that
> > vehicle, they change lanes.
> >
> > In addition to the stupidity seemingly induced by getting behind the
> > wheel, stupid people are steering around at speed with hot brakes.
> >
> > I wonder how brake fade might be contributing to RLC and other rear-
> > end crashes.
> > *-----
> >
> > - gpsman
>
> Looks like the ****ing trolling **** should have read the other
> ****ing thread first.
>
>
>
> Dave

Sorry, but I don't believe your test went as you claim.

You should have used the brakes hard enough to stall the engine, but you
didn't.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>