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  #41  
Old November 14th 05, 06:39 AM
Lanny Chambers
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Default Basic Horsepower Upgrades

In article >,
wrote:

> That "handling through the turns business" is mostly done at 35 to 55
> mph, yes? What's up with that?


I dunno--perhaps limited expectations, or a compulsion to obey speed
laws? If the road is dry, the tires are first-rate, and the driver has
had some training, as a rule he can double the number on most yellow
"SAFE SPEED" signs and still have enough reserve capability to deal
safely with the unexpected. Miatas are not fast...but they don't have to
slow down as much or as often as most cars.

You should take your Miata to a track education day and discover what it
can do. I think you underestimate its potential.

--
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
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  #42  
Old November 14th 05, 07:16 AM
XS11E
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Default Basic Horsepower Upgrades

pws > wrote in
:

> Will a good driver in a Mustang beat a poor driver in a miata on a
> twisty track? Of course they will. That is obvious.


Not obvious at all, not even true maybe. "Good driver", "poor driver"
and "twisty track" are relative terms. How good is the Mustang driver?
How poor it the Miata driver? How twisty is the track?

I think you've made too broad a generalization...





  #43  
Old November 14th 05, 08:56 AM
pws
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XS11E wrote:

>
> Not obvious at all, not even true maybe. "Good driver", "poor driver"
> and "twisty track" are relative terms. How good is the Mustang driver?
> How poor it the Miata driver? How twisty is the track?
>
> I think you've made too broad a generalization...


Ok, no argument here. I am guilty as charged.

To clarify, I am referring to a really good driver in the Mustang, not
necessarily competition level but someone who knows what they are doing
versus someone in the miata who is such a complete novice, or just so
bad, that they are as likely to end up sliding off of the track as they
are to finish the race.

Dave pointed out that it was the driver that mattered.

I was simply agreeing with this statement to an extent, a better driver
can win a race in a slower car, unless the difference is extreme as as
in the case of my Tercel versus Corvette example.
This is assuming that the Corvette driver can stay on the track, but
that shouldn't be too hard to do if all you have to do is beat a Tercel. :-)

Pat - off to bed, finally. With a predicted high of 83 tomorrow, a full
tank of gas, and the day off, I know what I'll be doing.



  #45  
Old November 14th 05, 04:00 PM
XS11E
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Default Basic Horsepower Upgrades

Lanny Chambers > wrote in
:

> I dunno--perhaps limited expectations, or a compulsion to obey
> speed laws? If the road is dry, the tires are first-rate, and the
> driver has had some training, as a rule he can double the number
> on most yellow "SAFE SPEED" signs and still have enough reserve
> capability to deal safely with the unexpected.


Wrong, you may deal with the unexpected but what about the expected?
Going fast will irritate Mr. Policeman and when he's irritated the ears
on his horse will turn red and that will cause severe injury to your
wallet (don't ask how I know this!) so to be safe, drive so as not to
irritate Mr. Policeman.

  #46  
Old November 14th 05, 04:22 PM
Grant Edwards
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Default Basic Horsepower Upgrades

On 2005-11-14, XS11E > wrote:
> Lanny Chambers > wrote in
> :
>
>> I dunno--perhaps limited expectations, or a compulsion to obey
>> speed laws? If the road is dry, the tires are first-rate, and the
>> driver has had some training, as a rule he can double the number
>> on most yellow "SAFE SPEED" signs and still have enough reserve
>> capability to deal safely with the unexpected.

>
> Wrong, you may deal with the unexpected but what about the expected?
> Going fast will irritate Mr. Policeman and when he's irritated the ears
> on his horse will turn red and that will cause severe injury to your
> wallet (don't ask how I know this!) so to be safe, drive so as not to
> irritate Mr. Policeman.


In the states I've lived in, the yellow "speed" signs at curves
are not regulatory.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! We just joined the
at civil hair patrol!
visi.com
  #47  
Old November 14th 05, 04:33 PM
Dave
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Default Basic Horsepower Upgrades

In article >, pws > wrote:
>Dave wrote:


First, let me say I think we agree on more than we'll admit. But I
do think that we have a little too much faith in our trusty Miatas.

>I agree that the power is an advantage, but how does the weight help?


It doesn't. Never said it did. Miata owners, me included, worship
at the "add lightness" temple (noting your Elise comment and I too
want one). Yes, light is good. But I think we all overestimate it.
But I submit power/weight is by far the biggest component in racing
after the driver (assuming a decently sorted suspension). Sure, make
it light and you've solved the equation. So does adding power.

Next, any lightweight-disciple will say "yeah, but light makes for
better cornering and braking". To an extent, I agree. But you can
make anything brake and corner with great tires, big brakes, and a
well-sorted suspension. "But they all add weight...". Yes, but you
can still make that up with added hp. Vipers, GT CTS-V race cars,
and many others go very, very fast and still weigh 3500 lbs.
Listen, I don't want to argue myself into a corner, so I'll state
"YES, LIGHT IS GOOD". But it isn't going to make up for a ****-poor
power/weight *on a race track*.

Look at that Automobile article where they had 9 track cars. The
Elise finished mid-pack.
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.
php?s=&threadid=3270&highlight=automobile+magazine

Further, frankly, I think we overestimate the Miata's handling. It
has *fun* handling. Nice balance, lots of feel, good stick
(rubber-dependent). But out of the box, too much roll, too much
weight transfer (though it makes it fun). Yes, aftermarket can
address all that ... as it can with a Mustang. On the road, any of
these cars is a lot more capable than what we do with them. If not,
you are a danger (sand, oil, deer, bicyclist ...).

Honestly, I have no idea how well a stock Mustang GT handles. I
wouldn't believe what I read here anyway. Most everyone says their
car handles great. And will say the other guy's (especially
American cars) suck. But handling is so subjective it is a
near-meaningless statement. Bottom line, I'd look for the same
very competent driver running both a Miata and a Mustang GT stock.
My bet: on a track other than auto-X, no contest.

I don't have any proof, but here's an interesting article ...

http://www.edmunds.
com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=107486?flushCache=true

We all agree the RX-8 is a fine handling car akin to the Miata? And
it has much better power/weight, so it should be faster on the
track? Well, here's three drivers of very different ability levels
lapping it and the Mustang GT (and others). They were all about 3
sec a lap faster in the junky Ford than the RX-8. Certainly not
conclusive, but doesn't it make one stop and reconsider their
preconceptions?

I still prefer my Miata. But I wouldn't diss anyone who either (a)
prefers the Mustang or (b) wants to add power to their Miata.

My apologies for the long-winder post ... if you got here ...
  #48  
Old November 14th 05, 05:54 PM
pws
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Default Basic Horsepower Upgrades

Dave,

I think that we are basically on the same page here. I know that in one
magazine article of the fastest modified cars, there wasn't a small car
to be found. I think that they measured acceleration, braking, lap
times, and a few other tests and came up with the car with the best
overall abilities, which was a very highly modified Corvette, iirc.

They still haven't gotten a miata to do 200 mph, a rather easy
achievement for some car models, so I agree that it is not a
*high-speed* car, even when modified.

I do, however, have to smile anytime I see this picture.

http://home.austin.rr.com/sheltonser...pers-miata.jpg

A muscle car driving friend of mine says that it is just a shot of the
Vipers lapping the Miata, but I think we know better. :-)

Have fun and be safe! I just did.

Pat
  #49  
Old November 14th 05, 06:00 PM
pws
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Default Basic Horsepower Upgrades

Dave wrote:

>
> http://www.edmunds.
> com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=107486?flushCache=true


Here is a working link to the article using Tinyurl.

http://tinyurl.com/a6ddf

Pat
  #50  
Old November 14th 05, 07:06 PM
Lanny Chambers
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Default Basic Horsepower Upgrades

In article >,
XS11E > wrote:

> Going fast will irritate Mr. Policeman and when he's irritated the ears
> on his horse will turn red and that will cause severe injury to your
> wallet (don't ask how I know this!) so to be safe, drive so as not to
> irritate Mr. Policeman.


There's a time and place for everything. If a driver can't tell the
difference...well, think of Mr. Policeman as an agent of natural
selection. :-)

If there are no fun, unpatrolled roads where you live, then move!

--
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
 




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