Anco wiper blades called a CR best buy

On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:10:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:

> L Alpert wrote:
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the past
>>>>>>>> 30
>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze, brake
>>>>>>>> fluid,
>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them other
>>>>>>>> than the
>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered. Long
>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the
>>>>>>> shelf
>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings are a
>>>>> commodity "material" with stock bearings available for every conceivable
>>>>> application. but auto manufacturers spec clutch thrust bearings that
>>>>> are almost always different and exclusive from any of the off-the-shelf
>>>>> solutions. because they can.
>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing applications
>>>> are specific. In this case, their need has created a new standard unit
>>>> because no other standard unit fit their model as well as they wanted it
>>>> to.
>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a custom
>>> bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should lubricant be any
>>> different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process. it's a piece of cake to
>>> do from a production viewpoint, and can have substantial mechanical
>>> benefits as shown by the way honda atf performs differently to non-honda
>>> atf.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first, before
>>>> designing a new one.
>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that has forced
>>>>>> or required a technological breakthrough in auto fluids.
>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the facts.
>>>>> honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary honda gear trains,
>>>>> they use a "stick" transmission configuration with clutch packs instead
>>>>> of synchros. and they use one-way clutches too. on that basis, i
>>>>> personally have absolutely no trouble believing they'd need a different
>>>>> spec fluid. there's nothing "forcing" them to do it that way, but honda
>>>>> are different. oh, and there's nothing "forcing" honda to make a car
>>>>> that will routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more miles. but honda are
>>>>> different.
>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for the Honda
>>>> branded vs. those that are at least closely compared to it, such as the
>>>> Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since most
>>> producers go out of their way to keep the public in the dark about this
>>> stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity index.
>>
>> There is plenty of more specific information available then viscosity index,
>> isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C, Brookfield Viscosity and Phosphorous
>> % by weight including the ASTM test methods used.
>>
>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>
> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
> understand you properly.
>
>
>> but it is good start for
>> comparison purposes.
>
> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission, shifts
> smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's humvee is
> nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/ to honda atf,
> does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>
>>
>
> still waiting on that one...

I have trouble with my 89 legend, using Dexron2, the FSM says Dexron2.
Should I try Honda fluid?

Bret wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:10:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the past
>>>>>>>>> 30
>>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze, brake
>>>>>>>>> fluid,
>>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them other
>>>>>>>>> than the
>>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered. Long
>>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the
>>>>>>>> shelf
>>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings are a
>>>>>> commodity "material" with stock bearings available for every conceivable
>>>>>> application. but auto manufacturers spec clutch thrust bearings that
>>>>>> are almost always different and exclusive from any of the off-the-shelf
>>>>>> solutions. because they can.
>>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing applications
>>>>> are specific. In this case, their need has created a new standard unit
>>>>> because no other standard unit fit their model as well as they wanted it
>>>>> to.
>>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a custom
>>>> bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should lubricant be any
>>>> different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process. it's a piece of cake to
>>>> do from a production viewpoint, and can have substantial mechanical
>>>> benefits as shown by the way honda atf performs differently to non-honda
>>>> atf.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first, before
>>>>> designing a new one.
>>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that has forced
>>>>>>> or required a technological breakthrough in auto fluids.
>>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the facts.
>>>>>> honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary honda gear trains,
>>>>>> they use a "stick" transmission configuration with clutch packs instead
>>>>>> of synchros. and they use one-way clutches too. on that basis, i
>>>>>> personally have absolutely no trouble believing they'd need a different
>>>>>> spec fluid. there's nothing "forcing" them to do it that way, but honda
>>>>>> are different. oh, and there's nothing "forcing" honda to make a car
>>>>>> that will routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more miles. but honda are
>>>>>> different.
>>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for the Honda
>>>>> branded vs. those that are at least closely compared to it, such as the
>>>>> Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since most
>>>> producers go out of their way to keep the public in the dark about this
>>>> stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity index.
>>> There is plenty of more specific information available then viscosity index,
>>> isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C, Brookfield Viscosity and Phosphorous
>>> % by weight including the ASTM test methods used.
>>>
>>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
>> understand you properly.
>>
>>
>>> but it is good start for
>>> comparison purposes.
>> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission, shifts
>> smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's humvee is
>> nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/ to honda atf,
>> does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>>
>> still waiting on that one...
>
> I have trouble with my 89 legend, using Dexron2, the FSM says Dexron2.
> Should I try Honda fluid?


what are the symptoms?

On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:32:27 -0700, jim beam wrote:

> Bret wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:10:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>> t...
>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the past
>>>>>>>>>> 30
>>>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze, brake
>>>>>>>>>> fluid,
>>>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them other
>>>>>>>>>> than the
>>>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered. Long
>>>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the
>>>>>>>>> shelf
>>>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings are a
>>>>>>> commodity "material" with stock bearings available for every conceivable
>>>>>>> application. but auto manufacturers spec clutch thrust bearings that
>>>>>>> are almost always different and exclusive from any of the off-the-shelf
>>>>>>> solutions. because they can.
>>>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing applications
>>>>>> are specific. In this case, their need has created a new standard unit
>>>>>> because no other standard unit fit their model as well as they wanted it
>>>>>> to.
>>>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a custom
>>>>> bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should lubricant be any
>>>>> different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process. it's a piece of cake to
>>>>> do from a production viewpoint, and can have substantial mechanical
>>>>> benefits as shown by the way honda atf performs differently to non-honda
>>>>> atf.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first, before
>>>>>> designing a new one.
>>>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that has forced
>>>>>>>> or required a technological breakthrough in auto fluids.
>>>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the facts.
>>>>>>> honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary honda gear trains,
>>>>>>> they use a "stick" transmission configuration with clutch packs instead
>>>>>>> of synchros. and they use one-way clutches too. on that basis, i
>>>>>>> personally have absolutely no trouble believing they'd need a different
>>>>>>> spec fluid. there's nothing "forcing" them to do it that way, but honda
>>>>>>> are different. oh, and there's nothing "forcing" honda to make a car
>>>>>>> that will routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more miles. but honda are
>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for the Honda
>>>>>> branded vs. those that are at least closely compared to it, such as the
>>>>>> Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since most
>>>>> producers go out of their way to keep the public in the dark about this
>>>>> stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity index.
>>>> There is plenty of more specific information available then viscosity index,
>>>> isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C, Brookfield Viscosity and Phosphorous
>>>> % by weight including the ASTM test methods used.
>>>>
>>>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>>> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
>>> understand you properly.
>>>
>>>
>>>> but it is good start for
>>>> comparison purposes.
>>> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission, shifts
>>> smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's humvee is
>>> nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/ to honda atf,
>>> does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>>>
>>> still waiting on that one...
>>
>> I have trouble with my 89 legend, using Dexron2, the FSM says Dexron2.
>> Should I try Honda fluid?
>
>
> what are the symptoms?

Over-revs first when accelerating at anything other than moderate throttle,
then jumps into third, jumps back to second momentarily then continuues in
third and to fourth.

Bret wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:32:27 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>
>> Bret wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:10:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>> t...
>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the past
>>>>>>>>>>> 30
>>>>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze, brake
>>>>>>>>>>> fluid,
>>>>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them other
>>>>>>>>>>> than the
>>>>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered. Long
>>>>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off the
>>>>>>>>>> shelf
>>>>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings are a
>>>>>>>> commodity "material" with stock bearings available for every conceivable
>>>>>>>> application. but auto manufacturers spec clutch thrust bearings that
>>>>>>>> are almost always different and exclusive from any of the off-the-shelf
>>>>>>>> solutions. because they can.
>>>>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing applications
>>>>>>> are specific. In this case, their need has created a new standard unit
>>>>>>> because no other standard unit fit their model as well as they wanted it
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a custom
>>>>>> bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should lubricant be any
>>>>>> different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process. it's a piece of cake to
>>>>>> do from a production viewpoint, and can have substantial mechanical
>>>>>> benefits as shown by the way honda atf performs differently to non-honda
>>>>>> atf.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first, before
>>>>>>> designing a new one.
>>>>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that has forced
>>>>>>>>> or required a technological breakthrough in auto fluids.
>>>>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the facts.
>>>>>>>> honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary honda gear trains,
>>>>>>>> they use a "stick" transmission configuration with clutch packs instead
>>>>>>>> of synchros. and they use one-way clutches too. on that basis, i
>>>>>>>> personally have absolutely no trouble believing they'd need a different
>>>>>>>> spec fluid. there's nothing "forcing" them to do it that way, but honda
>>>>>>>> are different. oh, and there's nothing "forcing" honda to make a car
>>>>>>>> that will routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more miles. but honda are
>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for the Honda
>>>>>>> branded vs. those that are at least closely compared to it, such as the
>>>>>>> Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>>>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since most
>>>>>> producers go out of their way to keep the public in the dark about this
>>>>>> stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity index.
>>>>> There is plenty of more specific information available then viscosity index,
>>>>> isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C, Brookfield Viscosity and Phosphorous
>>>>> % by weight including the ASTM test methods used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>>>> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
>>>> understand you properly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> but it is good start for
>>>>> comparison purposes.
>>>> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission, shifts
>>>> smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's humvee is
>>>> nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/ to honda atf,
>>>> does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>>> still waiting on that one...
>>> I have trouble with my 89 legend, using Dexron2, the FSM says Dexron2.
>>> Should I try Honda fluid?
>>
>> what are the symptoms?
>
> Over-revs first when accelerating at anything other than moderate throttle,
> then jumps into third, jumps back to second momentarily then continuues in
> third and to fourth.
>

honda atf will help, but you're better off making sure the kickdown
cable is adjusted correctly [if it has one], that the engine is tuned
right [if it's hunting in anticipation of a climb in rpm's that never
come, it can fluff about like you describe - trust me on that one] and
last but not least, making sure the fluid level is correct. in my old
civics, the atf is measured 30-60 seconds after shutdown, from full
temperature.

of course, you could also have a slipping clutch, but that gets real bad
real quick, and you can isolate it by holding the transmission select in
the suspect gear for diagnosis.

fyi, my crx sometimes does what you describe on cold days. it used to
do it in warmer weather too, but after i undertook the above, and
changed the fluid once, it only does it on the first shift of the day up
a grade. after that, no problems.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
> jim beam wrote:
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>> t...
>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> t...
>>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in
>>>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>>> Retired VIP > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scott, I don't believe that Honda or any other car
>>>>>>>>>>> manufacturer does
>>>>>>>>>>> quality control testing on anything produced outside of
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>> factories.
>>>>>>>>>> Sure they do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They spec power steering fluid and auto trans fluid, and if
>>>>>>>>>> you bypass
>>>>>>>>>> their stuff, you see problems.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Engine oil, probably not.
>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> past 30 years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF,
>>>>>>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid, oil, etc.
>>>>>>>> i use c.o.t.s antifreeze, brake fluid etc., but not atf. in
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> experience, the only atf that makes a honda shift well is
>>>>>>>> honda
>>>>>>>> z1. if you've added non-honda fluid and it's been "ok", it
>>>>>>>> sounds like you haven't achieved full dilution.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>> other than the label.
>>>>>>>> rather than just "doubt", why don't you do some homework? do
>>>>>>>> you "doubt" that the component quality used by honda under
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> hood is any better than frod? have you ever dissected a
>>>>>>>> honda
>>>>>>>> vs. non-honda spec igniter unit for instance? honda may not
>>>>>>>> manufacture half their stuff directly, but they /do/ write
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> spec and /do/ undertake q.c.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While specific components that are manufactured for specific
>>>>>>> applications will be built for those applications, genric
>>>>>>> items
>>>>>>> that are manufactured to a general specification and relabled
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> OEM are not.
>>>>>> that statement is technically true...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is something I am quite familiar with, as I have been in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> OEM industry for many years (non automotive, but OEM non the
>>>>>>> less).
>>>>>> but here's the problem, you're /presuming/ that to be always
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> case. it's not! just because some manufacturers do that,
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> mean they all do.
>>>>>>
>>>>> We make the same component for 4 different companies. Although
>>>>> each customer has a slightly different specification, the
>>>>> process
>>>>> is designed to meet them all.
>>>>>
>>>>> For anyone to mass manufacture a single component under multiple
>>>>> processes and conditions would have great cost implications. It
>>>>> is
>>>>> an economic reality.
>>>> indeed. but i return to the original point - i can tell you from
>>>> experience that two "generic" products used on hondas are not
>>>> generic at all - atf and p/s fluid. just because others practice
>>>> what you say, doesn't mean they all do.
>>>
>>> Manufacturing is manufacturing. Unless someone can point to a
>>> specification for Honda fluids that actually make them unique from
>>> other good and commonly used SAE equivalent components, I will
>>> continue to use those generics that are readily available.
>>>
>>> While you have historically given very good advice in this
>>> newsgroup and I respect your opinion on just about everything you
>>> post, I have to disagree with the assessment of "Honda only
>>> fluids". It is a common practice for just about every
>>> manufacturer to recommend in their manuals to use only their
>>> fluids as a way of increasing sales of these items.
>>
>> we can agree on that - in principle.
>>
>>
>>> As I have stated before, my own experiences are quite the
>>> opposite of yours, even with the small sample size of 5 Honda
>>> vehicles over 30 years.
>>
>> search the honda newsgroups - there's a tom of people disagree with
>> you on the atf/psf thing.
>>
>> what atf do you use? and how often do you change it?
>>
>
> no response? what atf do you use? and how often do you change it?
>

Castrol (use the oil as well). Changes as per the manual.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
>L Alpert wrote:
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>> t...
>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over
>>>>>>>>>> the past 30
>>>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF,
>>>>>>>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid,
>>>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about
>>>>>>>>>> them other than the
>>>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you
>>>>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly
>>>>>>>>> engineered. Long
>>>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's
>>>>>>>>> off the shelf
>>>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings
>>>>>>> are a commodity "material" with stock bearings available for
>>>>>>> every conceivable application. but auto manufacturers spec
>>>>>>> clutch thrust bearings that are almost always different and
>>>>>>> exclusive from any of the off-the-shelf solutions. because
>>>>>>> they can.
>>>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing
>>>>>> applications are specific. In this case, their need has
>>>>>> created a new standard unit because no other standard unit fit
>>>>>> their model as well as they wanted it to.
>>>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a
>>>>> custom bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should
>>>>> lubricant be any different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process.
>>>>> it's a piece of cake to do from a production viewpoint, and can
>>>>> have substantial mechanical benefits as shown by the way honda
>>>>> atf performs differently to non-honda atf.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first,
>>>>>> before designing a new one.
>>>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that
>>>>>>>> has forced or required a technological breakthrough in auto
>>>>>>>> fluids.
>>>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the
>>>>>>> facts. honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary
>>>>>>> honda gear trains, they use a "stick" transmission
>>>>>>> configuration with clutch packs instead of synchros. and they
>>>>>>> use one-way clutches too. on that basis, i personally have
>>>>>>> absolutely no trouble believing they'd need a different spec
>>>>>>> fluid. there's nothing "forcing" them to do it that way, but
>>>>>>> honda are different. oh, and there's nothing "forcing" honda
>>>>>>> to make a car that will routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more
>>>>>>> miles. but honda are different.
>>>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for
>>>>>> the Honda branded vs. those that are at least closely compared
>>>>>> to it, such as the Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since
>>>>> most producers go out of their way to keep the public in the
>>>>> dark about this stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity
>>>>> index.
>>>> There is plenty of more specific information available then
>>>> viscosity index, isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C,
>>>> Brookfield Viscosity and Phosphorous % by weight including the
>>>> ASTM test methods used.
>>>>
>>>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>>> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
>>> understand you properly.
>>>
>>>
>>>> but it is good start for comparison purposes.
>>> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission,
>>> shifts smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's
>>> humvee is nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/
>>> to honda atf, does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>>>
>>
>> I used dextron III equivalent in my 01 accord, and there was no
>> discernable difference in peformance or shifting of the
>> transmission, so I could not comment on this phenomenon.
>
> but you seem to have an opinion! how can you have an opinion if
> you're not familiar with the facts?

I cannot experience your "facts".

>
> and btw, the 01 accord has full electronic transmission control,
> including engine down-power through ignition retardation on
> shifting. so yes, you might well expect a smoother shift than you'd
> get with the older transmissions. but because electronics
> compensate, doesn't mean that the transmission is operating
> optimally as it would with the factory spec atf.

If the transmission is shifting optimally, then it is performing
optimally. There is, after all, not much else for it to do.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>>>
>>> still waiting on that one...
>
>
> found those specs yet?

I have found them from Castrol, but finding them from the Z1 has
proven to be quite difficult.

L Alpert wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>> t...
>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over
>>>>>>>>>>> the past 30
>>>>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF,
>>>>>>>>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid,
>>>>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about
>>>>>>>>>>> them other than the
>>>>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you
>>>>>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly
>>>>>>>>>> engineered. Long
>>>>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's
>>>>>>>>>> off the shelf
>>>>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings
>>>>>>>> are a commodity "material" with stock bearings available for
>>>>>>>> every conceivable application. but auto manufacturers spec
>>>>>>>> clutch thrust bearings that are almost always different and
>>>>>>>> exclusive from any of the off-the-shelf solutions. because
>>>>>>>> they can.
>>>>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing
>>>>>>> applications are specific. In this case, their need has
>>>>>>> created a new standard unit because no other standard unit fit
>>>>>>> their model as well as they wanted it to.
>>>>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a
>>>>>> custom bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should
>>>>>> lubricant be any different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process.
>>>>>> it's a piece of cake to do from a production viewpoint, and can
>>>>>> have substantial mechanical benefits as shown by the way honda
>>>>>> atf performs differently to non-honda atf.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first,
>>>>>>> before designing a new one.
>>>>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that
>>>>>>>>> has forced or required a technological breakthrough in auto
>>>>>>>>> fluids.
>>>>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the
>>>>>>>> facts. honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary
>>>>>>>> honda gear trains, they use a "stick" transmission
>>>>>>>> configuration with clutch packs instead of synchros. and they
>>>>>>>> use one-way clutches too. on that basis, i personally have
>>>>>>>> absolutely no trouble believing they'd need a different spec
>>>>>>>> fluid. there's nothing "forcing" them to do it that way, but
>>>>>>>> honda are different. oh, and there's nothing "forcing" honda
>>>>>>>> to make a car that will routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more
>>>>>>>> miles. but honda are different.
>>>>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for
>>>>>>> the Honda branded vs. those that are at least closely compared
>>>>>>> to it, such as the Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>>>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since
>>>>>> most producers go out of their way to keep the public in the
>>>>>> dark about this stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity
>>>>>> index.
>>>>> There is plenty of more specific information available then
>>>>> viscosity index, isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C,
>>>>> Brookfield Viscosity and Phosphorous % by weight including the
>>>>> ASTM test methods used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>>>> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
>>>> understand you properly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> but it is good start for comparison purposes.
>>>> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission,
>>>> shifts smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's
>>>> humvee is nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/
>>>> to honda atf, does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>>>>
>>> I used dextron III equivalent in my 01 accord, and there was no
>>> discernable difference in peformance or shifting of the
>>> transmission, so I could not comment on this phenomenon.
>> but you seem to have an opinion! how can you have an opinion if
>> you're not familiar with the facts?
>
> I cannot experience your "facts".

don't bother with my data - google this group and see how many times
this subject arises, how many times people complain of harsh shifting,
and how many times the cure is reversion to honda atf.




>
>> and btw, the 01 accord has full electronic transmission control,
>> including engine down-power through ignition retardation on
>> shifting. so yes, you might well expect a smoother shift than you'd
>> get with the older transmissions. but because electronics
>> compensate, doesn't mean that the transmission is operating
>> optimally as it would with the factory spec atf.
>
> If the transmission is shifting optimally, then it is performing
> optimally. There is, after all, not much else for it to do.

i guess you're invested in that position now! but if you've only done
drain and fill once, you're still about 70% honda atf.


>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>>> still waiting on that one...
>>
>> found those specs yet?
>
> I have found them from Castrol, but finding them from the Z1 has
> proven to be quite difficult.

surprise.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
>L Alpert wrote:
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>> t...
>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>> t...
>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>>>>>>>>>>>> past 30
>>>>>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze,
>>>>>>>>>>>> brake fluid,
>>>>>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>>>>>>>>>> other than the
>>>>>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered.
>>>>>>>>>>> Long
>>>>>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off
>>>>>>>>>>> the shelf
>>>>>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings are a
>>>>>>>>> commodity "material" with stock bearings available for every
>>>>>>>>> conceivable application. but auto manufacturers spec clutch
>>>>>>>>> thrust bearings that are almost always different and exclusive
>>>>>>>>> from any of the off-the-shelf solutions. because they can.
>>>>>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing
>>>>>>>> applications are specific. In this case, their need has created a
>>>>>>>> new standard unit because no other standard unit fit their model as
>>>>>>>> well as they wanted it to.
>>>>>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a
>>>>>>> custom bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should lubricant be
>>>>>>> any different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process. it's a piece of
>>>>>>> cake to do from a production viewpoint, and can have substantial
>>>>>>> mechanical benefits as shown by the way honda atf performs
>>>>>>> differently to non-honda atf.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first, before
>>>>>>>> designing a new one.
>>>>>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that has
>>>>>>>>>> forced or required a technological breakthrough in auto fluids.
>>>>>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the
>>>>>>>>> facts. honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary honda
>>>>>>>>> gear trains, they use a "stick" transmission configuration with
>>>>>>>>> clutch packs instead of synchros. and they use one-way clutches
>>>>>>>>> too. on that basis, i personally have absolutely no trouble
>>>>>>>>> believing they'd need a different spec fluid. there's nothing
>>>>>>>>> "forcing" them to do it that way, but honda are different. oh,
>>>>>>>>> and there's nothing "forcing" honda to make a car that will
>>>>>>>>> routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more miles. but honda are
>>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for the
>>>>>>>> Honda branded vs. those that are at least closely compared to it,
>>>>>>>> such as the Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>>>>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since most
>>>>>>> producers go out of their way to keep the public in the dark about
>>>>>>> this stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity index.
>>>>>> There is plenty of more specific information available then viscosity
>>>>>> index, isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C, Brookfield Viscosity
>>>>>> and Phosphorous % by weight including the ASTM test methods used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>>>>> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
>>>>> understand you properly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> but it is good start for comparison purposes.
>>>>> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission, shifts
>>>>> smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's humvee is
>>>>> nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/ to honda atf,
>>>>> does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>>>>>
>>>> I used dextron III equivalent in my 01 accord, and there was no
>>>> discernable difference in peformance or shifting of the transmission,
>>>> so I could not comment on this phenomenon.
>>> but you seem to have an opinion! how can you have an opinion if you're
>>> not familiar with the facts?
>>
>> I cannot experience your "facts".
>
> don't bother with my data - google this group and see how many times this
> subject arises, how many times people complain of harsh shifting, and how
> many times the cure is reversion to honda atf.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> and btw, the 01 accord has full electronic transmission control,
>>> including engine down-power through ignition retardation on shifting. so
>>> yes, you might well expect a smoother shift than you'd get with the
>>> older transmissions. but because electronics compensate, doesn't mean
>>> that the transmission is operating optimally as it would with the
>>> factory spec atf.
>>
>> If the transmission is shifting optimally, then it is performing
>> optimally. There is, after all, not much else for it to do.
>
> i guess you're invested in that position now! but if you've only done
> drain and fill once, you're still about 70% honda atf.

Why change the subject and assume that I used some type of shortcut and that
is why I had no issues with non-Honda ATF?

Maybe it might have something to do with the mileage on the transmission and
the year of the car itself. As you stated, the '01 Accord EX tranny has
electronic means to assist in the shifting, and I'm sure my '04 Accord EX
and '02 Civic EX would have the same or similar hardware. As well, none of
them have over 80k miles on them, and I have had no issues with any of them
shifting. As far as the older Honda's I have owned over the years, they
have not had automatic transmissions.

As for as an "investment" in a position, that in itself is another matter of
opinion. It is a shame that you have to feel as if any position has to be
some sort of an investment as opposed to an open exchange of ideas.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>>>> still waiting on that one...
>>>
>>> found those specs yet?
>>
>> I have found them from Castrol, but finding them from the Z1 has proven
>> to be quite difficult.
>
> surprise.

Not really. It was what I expected.

L Alpert wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> ...
>> L Alpert wrote:
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>> t...
>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> t...
>>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> past 30
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF, antifreeze,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> brake fluid,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other than the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Long
>>>>>>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off
>>>>>>>>>>>> the shelf
>>>>>>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>>>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings are a
>>>>>>>>>> commodity "material" with stock bearings available for every
>>>>>>>>>> conceivable application. but auto manufacturers spec clutch
>>>>>>>>>> thrust bearings that are almost always different and exclusive
>>>>>>>>>> from any of the off-the-shelf solutions. because they can.
>>>>>>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing
>>>>>>>>> applications are specific. In this case, their need has created a
>>>>>>>>> new standard unit because no other standard unit fit their model as
>>>>>>>>> well as they wanted it to.
>>>>>>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a
>>>>>>>> custom bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should lubricant be
>>>>>>>> any different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process. it's a piece of
>>>>>>>> cake to do from a production viewpoint, and can have substantial
>>>>>>>> mechanical benefits as shown by the way honda atf performs
>>>>>>>> differently to non-honda atf.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first, before
>>>>>>>>> designing a new one.
>>>>>>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that has
>>>>>>>>>>> forced or required a technological breakthrough in auto fluids.
>>>>>>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the
>>>>>>>>>> facts. honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary honda
>>>>>>>>>> gear trains, they use a "stick" transmission configuration with
>>>>>>>>>> clutch packs instead of synchros. and they use one-way clutches
>>>>>>>>>> too. on that basis, i personally have absolutely no trouble
>>>>>>>>>> believing they'd need a different spec fluid. there's nothing
>>>>>>>>>> "forcing" them to do it that way, but honda are different. oh,
>>>>>>>>>> and there's nothing "forcing" honda to make a car that will
>>>>>>>>>> routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more miles. but honda are
>>>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for the
>>>>>>>>> Honda branded vs. those that are at least closely compared to it,
>>>>>>>>> such as the Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>>>>>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since most
>>>>>>>> producers go out of their way to keep the public in the dark about
>>>>>>>> this stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity index.
>>>>>>> There is plenty of more specific information available then viscosity
>>>>>>> index, isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C, Brookfield Viscosity
>>>>>>> and Phosphorous % by weight including the ASTM test methods used.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>>>>>> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
>>>>>> understand you properly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but it is good start for comparison purposes.
>>>>>> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission, shifts
>>>>>> smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's humvee is
>>>>>> nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/ to honda atf,
>>>>>> does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>>>>>>
>>>>> I used dextron III equivalent in my 01 accord, and there was no
>>>>> discernable difference in peformance or shifting of the transmission,
>>>>> so I could not comment on this phenomenon.
>>>> but you seem to have an opinion! how can you have an opinion if you're
>>>> not familiar with the facts?
>>> I cannot experience your "facts".
>> don't bother with my data - google this group and see how many times this
>> subject arises, how many times people complain of harsh shifting, and how
>> many times the cure is reversion to honda atf.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> and btw, the 01 accord has full electronic transmission control,
>>>> including engine down-power through ignition retardation on shifting. so
>>>> yes, you might well expect a smoother shift than you'd get with the
>>>> older transmissions. but because electronics compensate, doesn't mean
>>>> that the transmission is operating optimally as it would with the
>>>> factory spec atf.
>>> If the transmission is shifting optimally, then it is performing
>>> optimally. There is, after all, not much else for it to do.
>> i guess you're invested in that position now! but if you've only done
>> drain and fill once, you're still about 70% honda atf.
>
> Why change the subject and assume that I used some type of shortcut and that
> is why I had no issues with non-Honda ATF?

i'm not changing the subject. and drain-and-fill is honda factory
procedure. if you do that, you'll only change 30-odd percent of the
fluid each time. hence you may not have "contaminated" the fluid
sufficiently to have an adverse effect.



>
> Maybe it might have something to do with the mileage on the transmission and
> the year of the car itself. As you stated, the '01 Accord EX tranny has
> electronic means to assist

it's not electronic assist, it's electronic control. different things.
the actuators are still hydraulic.


> in the shifting, and I'm sure my '04 Accord EX
> and '02 Civic EX would have the same or similar hardware. As well, none of
> them have over 80k miles on them, and I have had no issues with any of them
> shifting.

at only 80k miles, you shouldn't be changing the fluid anyway!



> As far as the older Honda's I have owned over the years, they
> have not had automatic transmissions.
>
> As for as an "investment" in a position, that in itself is another matter of
> opinion. It is a shame that you have to feel as if any position has to be
> some sort of an investment as opposed to an open exchange of ideas.

someone is "invested" in their position is they stick to it, regardless
of contrary fact. you are indeed invested.



>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>>>>> still waiting on that one...
>>>> found those specs yet?
>>> I have found them from Castrol, but finding them from the Z1 has proven
>>> to be quite difficult.
>> surprise.
>
> Not really. It was what I expected.

me too. but i wasn't making assertions that i could find the data like
you were!

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
>L Alpert wrote:
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>> t...
>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>> t...
>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>> t...
>>>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>> L Alpert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "L Alpert" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have never had an issue with the Hondas I have owned over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the past 30
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years or so using off the shelf items such as ATF,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> antifreeze, brake fluid,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oil, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I seriously doubt that there is anything "special" about them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other than the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go ahead, then, use non-Honda ATF and tell us what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Same with coolant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shoot, same with power steering fluid nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're all part of a complex system that's highly engineered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Long
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gone are the days of everybody using the same stuff that's off
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the shelf
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Goober's gas station.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Systems are engineered using available standard materials.
>>>>>>>>>>> not always true - look at clutch thrust bearings. bearings are
>>>>>>>>>>> a commodity "material" with stock bearings available for every
>>>>>>>>>>> conceivable application. but auto manufacturers spec clutch
>>>>>>>>>>> thrust bearings that are almost always different and exclusive
>>>>>>>>>>> from any of the off-the-shelf solutions. because they can.
>>>>>>>>>> I would disagree with the assessment above. Thrust bearing
>>>>>>>>>> applications are specific. In this case, their need has created
>>>>>>>>>> a new standard unit because no other standard unit fit their
>>>>>>>>>> model as well as they wanted it to.
>>>>>>>>> but that's my point!!! it costs almost nothing extra to have a
>>>>>>>>> custom bearing unit specific to the task!!! why should lubricant
>>>>>>>>> be any different? [rhetorical] it's a batch process. it's a
>>>>>>>>> piece of cake to do from a production viewpoint, and can have
>>>>>>>>> substantial mechanical benefits as shown by the way honda atf
>>>>>>>>> performs differently to non-honda atf.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd bet they considered stock items in their design first, before
>>>>>>>>>> designing a new one.
>>>>>>>>> maybe, maybe not. maybe they want lock-in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have seen no indications that Honda has used systems that has
>>>>>>>>>>>> forced or required a technological breakthrough in auto fluids.
>>>>>>>>>>> then you're not looking and you're not paying attention to the
>>>>>>>>>>> facts. honda auto transmissions are not standard planetary honda
>>>>>>>>>>> gear trains, they use a "stick" transmission configuration with
>>>>>>>>>>> clutch packs instead of synchros. and they use one-way clutches
>>>>>>>>>>> too. on that basis, i personally have absolutely no trouble
>>>>>>>>>>> believing they'd need a different spec fluid. there's nothing
>>>>>>>>>>> "forcing" them to do it that way, but honda are different. oh,
>>>>>>>>>>> and there's nothing "forcing" honda to make a car that will
>>>>>>>>>>> routinely last, 300k, 500k, or more miles. but honda are
>>>>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>>>> The only way to tell is to compare the actual specification for
>>>>>>>>>> the Honda branded vs. those that are at least closely compared to
>>>>>>>>>> it, such as the Mobil grades that have been discussed.
>>>>>>>>> go ahead. but you'll be lucky to find anything specific since
>>>>>>>>> most producers go out of their way to keep the public in the dark
>>>>>>>>> about this stuff. there's more to oil than just viscosity index.
>>>>>>>> There is plenty of more specific information available then
>>>>>>>> viscosity index, isuch as SG, viscosity at s 100 deg C, Brookfield
>>>>>>>> Viscosity and Phosphorous % by weight including the ASTM test
>>>>>>>> methods used.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does this tell the whole story, no, not quite,
>>>>>>> can you understate that again please? i'm not sure i failed to
>>>>>>> understand you properly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but it is good start for comparison purposes.
>>>>>>> so, yet again, explain why honda atf, in a honda transmission,
>>>>>>> shifts smoothly, but, say, castrol dexron III shifts like arnie's
>>>>>>> humvee is nudging your back bumper? and why when you swap /back/ to
>>>>>>> honda atf, does your transmission shift smoothly again???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used dextron III equivalent in my 01 accord, and there was no
>>>>>> discernable difference in peformance or shifting of the transmission,
>>>>>> so I could not comment on this phenomenon.
>>>>> but you seem to have an opinion! how can you have an opinion if
>>>>> you're not familiar with the facts?
>>>> I cannot experience your "facts".
>>> don't bother with my data - google this group and see how many times
>>> this subject arises, how many times people complain of harsh shifting,
>>> and how many times the cure is reversion to honda atf.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> and btw, the 01 accord has full electronic transmission control,
>>>>> including engine down-power through ignition retardation on shifting.
>>>>> so yes, you might well expect a smoother shift than you'd get with the
>>>>> older transmissions. but because electronics compensate, doesn't mean
>>>>> that the transmission is operating optimally as it would with the
>>>>> factory spec atf.
>>>> If the transmission is shifting optimally, then it is performing
>>>> optimally. There is, after all, not much else for it to do.
>>> i guess you're invested in that position now! but if you've only done
>>> drain and fill once, you're still about 70% honda atf.
>>
>> Why change the subject and assume that I used some type of shortcut and
>> that is why I had no issues with non-Honda ATF?
>
> i'm not changing the subject. and drain-and-fill is honda factory
> procedure. if you do that, you'll only change 30-odd percent of the fluid
> each time. hence you may not have "contaminated" the fluid sufficiently
> to have an adverse effect.
>
>
>
>>
>> Maybe it might have something to do with the mileage on the transmission
>> and the year of the car itself. As you stated, the '01 Accord EX tranny
>> has electronic means to assist
>
> it's not electronic assist, it's electronic control. different things.
> the actuators are still hydraulic.

Symantics.

>
>
>> in the shifting, and I'm sure my '04 Accord EX and '02 Civic EX would
>> have the same or similar hardware. As well, none of them have over 80k
>> miles on them, and I have had no issues with any of them shifting.
>
> at only 80k miles, you shouldn't be changing the fluid anyway!
>
>
>
>> As far as the older Honda's I have owned over the years, they have not
>> had automatic transmissions.
>>
>> As for as an "investment" in a position, that in itself is another matter
>> of opinion. It is a shame that you have to feel as if any position has
>> to be some sort of an investment as opposed to an open exchange of ideas.
>
> someone is "invested" in their position is they stick to it, regardless of
> contrary fact. you are indeed invested.

It is obvious that your prejudices and your afinity to be right no matter
what has affected your abilities to have any useful discussions. As such, I
refuse to continue this discussion to the point that it degenerates into a
typical usenet flamewar that will eventually have Godwin's law apply.

Let's just say we agree to disagree and leave it at that. If you chose to
continue the conversation, you may do so with yourself.





>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll see if I google is my freind for this one today......
>>>>>>> still waiting on that one...
>>>>> found those specs yet?
>>>> I have found them from Castrol, but finding them from the Z1 has proven
>>>> to be quite difficult.
>>> surprise.
>>
>> Not really. It was what I expected.
>
> me too. but i wasn't making assertions that i could find the data like
> you were!