Slow Bikes Keep Right

This sign was on a reasonably steep uphill grade along Palos Verdes
Drive East, on the Palos Verdes Peninsula, southwest of Los Angeles.

My question: What does it mean?

Does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average bike should
keep right?

Or does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average car
(Speed Limit 35) should keep right?

If it had been on a downhill section, I know that some bikes would be
doing the same speed as the cars, but on a steep uphill section bike
riders struggle to keep moving at all.

"larry_scholnick" > wrote in message
...
> This sign was on a reasonably steep uphill grade along Palos Verdes
> Drive East, on the Palos Verdes Peninsula, southwest of Los Angeles.
>
> My question: What does it mean?
>
> Does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average bike should
> keep right?
>
> Or does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average car
> (Speed Limit 35) should keep right?
>
> If it had been on a downhill section, I know that some bikes would be
> doing the same speed as the cars, but on a steep uphill section bike
> riders struggle to keep moving at all.

I'm guessing that these slow uphill riders have been coming out into the
lane and impeding cars.

On Sep 7, 5:20*pm, "D. Stussy" > wrote:
> "larry_scholnick" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > This sign was on a reasonably steep uphill grade along Palos Verdes
> > Drive East, on the Palos Verdes Peninsula, southwest of Los Angeles.
>
> > My question: What does it mean?
>
> > Does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average bike should
> > keep right?
>
> > Or does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average car
> > (Speed Limit 35) should keep right?
>
> > If it had been on a downhill section, I know that some bikes would be
> > doing the same speed as the cars, but on a steep uphill section bike
> > riders struggle to keep moving at all.
>
> I'm guessing that these slow uphill riders have been coming out into the
> lane and impeding cars.

Some bicyclists are entirely too arrogant. I had one shout at me for
passing him on a wide, unstriped town street. When I pulled up to the
light, he pulled up next to me to lecture me about passing him. My
response: If you have a wide roadway, keep to the right; I'm a
bicyclist myself and the idea is to share the road, meaning let cars
have the right of way whenever possible. I mention this because it is
highly likely these arrogant riders will think "I'm not a SLOW bike"
and continue to hog the whole lane. Well, if they get passed/cut off
(but I certainly _don't_ mean forcing a crash), they get what they
deserve for being so arrogant.

Steve A wrote:

> Some bicyclists are entirely too arrogant. I had one shout at me for
> passing him on a wide, unstriped town street.

How much space did you give him when you were passing? When I'm riding,
I really don't like it when people pass me with less than 3 feet of
distance between my bike's handlebar and their passenger side mirror. I
also don't like it when they act like an idiot and brushpass me on
purpose when there's no opposing traffic or they pass me at exactly the
wrong time (right when there's a car going in the opposite direction).

> If you have a wide roadway, keep to the right;

Is riding in the right tire track of the lane too far to the left in
your opinion?

On 2009-09-07, Steve A > wrote:
> On Sep 7, 5:20*pm, "D. Stussy" > wrote:
>> "larry_scholnick" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > This sign was on a reasonably steep uphill grade along Palos Verdes
>> > Drive East, on the Palos Verdes Peninsula, southwest of Los Angeles.
>>
>> > My question: What does it mean?
>>
>> > Does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average bike should
>> > keep right?
>>
>> > Or does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average car
>> > (Speed Limit 35) should keep right?
>>
>> > If it had been on a downhill section, I know that some bikes would be
>> > doing the same speed as the cars, but on a steep uphill section bike
>> > riders struggle to keep moving at all.
>>
>> I'm guessing that these slow uphill riders have been coming out into the
>> lane and impeding cars.
>
> Some bicyclists are entirely too arrogant. I had one shout at me for
> passing him on a wide, unstriped town street. When I pulled up to the
> light, he pulled up next to me to lecture me about passing him. My
> response: If you have a wide roadway, keep to the right; I'm a
> bicyclist myself and the idea is to share the road, meaning let cars
> have the right of way whenever possible. I mention this because it is
> highly likely these arrogant riders will think "I'm not a SLOW bike"
> and continue to hog the whole lane. Well, if they get passed/cut off
> (but I certainly _don't_ mean forcing a crash), they get what they
> deserve for being so arrogant.

No, cars do not have the right of way 'whenever possible'. They have the
right of way when they have it under the rules of the road.

I bike a good number of roads with 25 and 30mph posted speed limits. The
vast majority of them are correctly posted because they are residential
roads. I can do the posted limit on many of them much of the time. When
I drive them, I obey that speed limit. It is EXTREMELY rare, to the
point of never happening that anyone even attempts to pass me. Also, I
am usually going 2mph under the limit (driving) because the speedometer
reads 2mph high.

Bicycling these roads I am often at the speed limit (speedo is
accurate). I will move towards the center of the lane when going that
fast because that's where the better pavement is, and at that speed, am
no longer legally required to be on the far right edge. Drivers of
course think they *MUST* pass and then try to do so, very often coming
way to close to me in the process. What bothers me the most is they do
it for no gain. I immediately catch up to them in a hundred feet or
three where there is a stop sign or traffic light. They will risk
killing me to wait at a stop.

And yes, I will occasionally end up giving some of these drivers a
lecture if they say even one word to me. These drivers won't dare try
that crap when I'm driving those roads at 25mph, so they shouldn't do it
when I'm bicycling them. They don't get to shove me off the road or over
to the side just because their vehicle is bigger. Those who think they
should, should have someone in a gravel truck do them what they do to
bicyclists.

Given your description of the road type, you're probably passing
bicyclists whom if they were driving the same speed you'd have no
problem staying behind. It's only because they are on bicycles that it
becomes an issue for you.

Today a driver of a pickup was behind me. it was a difficult spot to
pass so I sprinted up to 29.5 mph in a 30mph zone. The only reason I did
was because he was back there, it consumed limited energy for me. He
held back. When it got easier to pass I slowed and moved to the edge and
he passed. No problems. he was even a little close, but he was acting
right before that so I just let it go. That's the way it should be, but
often isn't. I've even had drivers intentionally run me off the road
when I've moved over to let them pass. One of the reasons I only do it
in circumstances where I am 98% sure of the driver is reasonable and I
have a safe exit.

On Sep 7, 10:00*pm, Brent > wrote:
> On 2009-09-07, Steve A > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 7, 5:20*pm, "D. Stussy" > wrote:
> >> "larry_scholnick" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> >> > This sign was on a reasonably steep uphill grade along Palos Verdes
> >> > Drive East, on the Palos Verdes Peninsula, southwest of Los Angeles.
>
> >> > My question: What does it mean?
>
> >> > Does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average bike should
> >> > keep right?
>
> >> > Or does it mean: Bikes that are going slower than the average car
> >> > (Speed Limit 35) should keep right?
>
> >> > If it had been on a downhill section, I know that some bikes would be
> >> > doing the same speed as the cars, but on a steep uphill section bike
> >> > riders struggle to keep moving at all.
>
> >> I'm guessing that these slow uphill riders have been coming out into the
> >> lane and impeding cars.
>
> > Some bicyclists are entirely too arrogant. *I had one shout at me for
> > passing him on a wide, unstriped town street. *When I pulled up to the
> > light, he pulled up next to me to lecture me about passing him. *My
> > response: *If you have a wide roadway, keep to the right; I'm a
> > bicyclist myself and the idea is to share the road, meaning let cars
> > have the right of way whenever possible. *I mention this because it is
> > highly likely these arrogant riders will think "I'm not a SLOW bike"
> > and continue to hog the whole lane. *Well, if they get passed/cut off
> > (but I certainly _don't_ mean forcing a crash), they get what they
> > deserve for being so arrogant.
>
> No, cars do not have the right of way 'whenever possible'. They have the
> right of way when they have it under the rules of the road.
>
> I bike a good number of roads with 25 and 30mph posted speed limits. The
> vast majority of them are correctly posted because they are residential
> roads. I can do the posted limit on many of them much of the time. When
> I drive them, I obey that speed limit. It is EXTREMELY rare, to the
> point of never happening that anyone even attempts to pass me. Also, I
> am usually going 2mph under the limit (driving) because the speedometer
> reads 2mph high.
>
> Bicycling these roads I am often at the speed limit (speedo is
> accurate). I will move towards the center of the lane when going that
> fast because that's where the better pavement is, and at that speed, am
> no longer legally required to be on the far right edge. Drivers of
> course think they *MUST* pass and then try to do so, very often coming
> way to close to me in the process. What bothers me the most is they do
> it for no gain. I immediately catch up to them in a hundred feet or
> three where there is a stop sign or traffic light. They will risk
> killing me to wait at a stop.
>
> And yes, I will occasionally end up giving some of these drivers a
> lecture if they say even one word to me. These drivers won't dare try
> that crap when I'm driving those roads at 25mph, so they shouldn't do it
> when I'm bicycling them. They don't get to shove me off the road or over
> to the side just because their vehicle is bigger. Those who think they
> should, should have someone in a gravel truck do them what they do to
> bicyclists.
>
> Given your description of the road type, you're probably passing
> bicyclists whom if they were driving the same speed you'd have no
> problem staying behind. It's only because they are on bicycles that it
> becomes an issue for you.
>
> Today a driver of a pickup was behind me. it was a difficult spot to
> pass so I sprinted up to 29.5 mph in a 30mph zone. The only reason I did
> was because he was back there, it consumed limited energy for me. *He
> held back. When it got easier to pass I slowed and moved to the edge and
> he passed. No problems. he was even a little close, but he was acting
> right before that so I just let it go. That's the way it should be, but
> often isn't. I've even had drivers intentionally run me off the road
> when I've moved over to let them pass. One of the reasons I only do it
> in circumstances where I am 98% sure of the driver is reasonable and I
> have a safe exit.

Exactly. Those who rarely ride, hold a belief that cyclists belong on
sidewalks and on paths, and who never ride, will often post knee-jerk
comments such as what Steve stated above. Traffic lanes are not
reserved for the express use by automobiles only, unless designated as
such (e.g. limited-access highways). You MUST share the lane with
other cyclists, even if they are using more of the lane than you would
prefer.

For instance, I typically ride in the right tire-track so as to avoid
debris, glass and the like in the areas near to the curb. It also
allows me to remain more visible to the motorist, to assert my right
to the lane, and to avoid hidding people opening their car doors (it
happens more often than you'd think).

I suggest, Steve, that you brush up on the laws of your state. What
you did was illegal.

Sherman

However, bicyclists can't expect to have it both ways. If they want
drivers to obey the laws and respect their rights, they also have to
obey the Laws. That means coming to a complete stop at stop signs,
waiting for red lights, no squeezing between cars in adjacent lanes.

An example: I was driving on a road that narrowed to 1 lane for
bridge construction over the freeway. There was a bicyclist toward
the right, watching so I wouldn't cut him off and take the entrance
ramp; I was watching him as well. We cross the bridge and come up to
the red light at the next intersection, where he moves up to the front
of the pack by using the gutter, slows down, and then blows the red
light.

Scott in SoCal wrote:

> Would you still insist on taking the lane even though you're
> struggling to maintain 3 MPH?

I don't know about Brent, but I can maintain 8 to 10 mph up those types
of grades (and that's if I don't have the benefit of previous momentum).
I do tend to keep a bit further to the right when going slow, but I'm
not going to ride less than 2 feet from the edge of the road regardless.

Drivers need to learn how to time their passes such that they don't try
to force the cyclist off the road while trying to pass at the same time
a car is coming from the opposite direction.

Arif Khokar > wrote in
:

> Scott in SoCal wrote:
>
>> Would you still insist on taking the lane even though you're
>> struggling to maintain 3 MPH?
>
> I don't know about Brent, but I can maintain 8 to 10 mph up those types
> of grades (and that's if I don't have the benefit of previous momentum).
> I do tend to keep a bit further to the right when going slow, but I'm
> not going to ride less than 2 feet from the edge of the road regardless.

what's so bad about that 2 feet? I generally ride WITHIN that 2 ft.
Of course,I stay OFF roads if practical.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Sep 8, 12:36*am, "Sherman L. Cahal" > wrote:
> I suggest, Steve, that you brush up on the laws of your state. What
> you did was illegal.

Granted, his response to the cyclist's lecture may have contained some
misinformation or unenlightened opinions on what "the idea" is, but
there is no evidence in Steve's post he did anything illegal.