Ignore Check Engine light at your peril!!

On 05/14/2011 04:32 PM, Tegger wrote:
> jim > wrote in
> t:
>
>> On 05/14/2011 08:02 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article<xeSdnYp6D4xXgFPQnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@speakeasy .net>,
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Making a mistake is one thing; what counts is how you recover from
>>> that mistake.
>>>
>>> Honda didn't recover from that mistake. Instead, they stuck their
>>> heads in the sand for years and tried to ignore it.
>
>
>
> <replying to Elmo>
>
> They assuredly did not. Even the NHTSA does not generally act until they
> receive at least 1,000 complaints. Anything below that number tends to
> fall into the "white noise" category, where it is difficult to determine
> patterns.
>
> Honda waited until they were certain they had a systemic issue, then
> went -- expensively -- all-out to find a solution. I have personally
> corresponded with, and advised, numerous owners who had got stuck with
> the defective transmissions. Just about all of them have had Honda pick
> up the entire tab for the replacement, and some have struck a deal where
> Honda paid for the parts and they paid the labor. In most cases, Honda
> did not argue at all: when the dealership made the "goodwill" out-of-
> warranty request, Honda agreed immediately.
>
> My observation is that Honda has been very generous with automatic-
> transmission warranty-repairs. This fiasco has been horrendously
> expensive for Honda, and has resulted in great damage to their
> reputation. It is not an experience they can afford to repeat.
>
> Almost all of the people I corresponded with had taken their cars to
> independent garages or a transmission shop, and were shocked when told
> how much it would cost to fix their transmissions. None were aware of
> the various recalls and TSBs, and none of the garages seem to have been
> aware of them either.
>
> I am happy to be able to say that I have helped many owners to save a
> huge amount of money simply by being able to inform them about the known
> problems, the recalls, the TSBs, and Honda's "goodwill" warranty; it's a
> good feeling.

they are very much in the minority. nobody i've met who has had honda
transmission problems before i know them has been able to get theirs
replaced for free. typical charges are $3.5k to $4.5k. and a
wagon-load of resentment and brand hostility.


>
>
>>
>> i don't think it was a mistake - i think it was a business decision.
>> mistakes get recalled and properly fixed.
>
>
>
> <repying to jim>
>
> Honda's automatic-transmission woes had nothing to do with the
> bean counters. They had to do with poor design, and poor
> quality-control.

i can't believe it wasn't a deliberate decision.

1. no engineer, unless they're a truly appallingly incompetent fraud,
would make a mistake on materials spec this bad. especially when they
had all the prior bullet-proof honda transmissions, including the
three-shaft designs, to reach to for example.

2. it's a beancounter's ongoing deliberate decision to continue to keep
parts off the market [and] by offering transmissions on an exchange-only
basis.

3. it's a beancounter's deliberate decision to make the same problem
appear across multiple different models/transmissions at the same time.
the accord transmission has no parts commonality with the civic, and
has a dramatically different load profile, yet they both had problems in
the same kind of mileage profiles. odyssey and pilot? same again.

no dude, it was, and from #2, remains, a policy decision.


>
> Honda has suffered mightily from their laxity, and has since corrected
> the problem entirely. The 2005+ automatics have stellar reliability
> records, and are probably the very best they've ever made.

honda thinking they could regularly shaft their customers just like
detroit does got them into this situation. they probably even
anticipated some backlash and ran the numbers accordingly. but their
mistake was not understanding the /degree/ of backlash they'd get from
their customers and how much they'd screw up their reputation and
goodwill. in that regard, it truly was a monumental goat ****. and
they deserve every little bit of it. and continue to deserve it for as
long as they continue to withhold parts and blow smoke up people's asses.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 05/14/2011 12:41 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<y7adnex__9t3UlPQnZ2dnUVZ_oudnZ2d@speakeasy .net>,
> jim > wrote:
>
>>> give me a Fit Si.
>>>
>>> It's more fun to drive a slow car fast...
>>
>> macpherson front and torsion beam rear won't /allow/ you to drive it
>> fast dude. and the si has the same output as the base, only it's
>> heavier with all the accessories...
>
> Wait--are you saying there is a Fit Si?
>
> Not sport edition--actual Si, like I mentioned the other day.

right, there isn't one.


> Put the
> Civic motor into it, do up a proper suspension and wheels/tires, pretty
> up the interior...make it true to the Si vision--the small car with the
> big (relatively speaking) motor and a good suspension.

they'd have to do the suspension. the current config on the fit is
pretty much useless for anything but driving in a straight line. they
should do what vw have been doing - put a decent multi-link rear on the
gti while the base models get the cheaper trailing torsion beam crap.


>
> That car, the one I want, doesn't exist. You're right.

honda have lost the plot. toyota get it. the scion models are what
they use to build their niche. but toyota are cheap and they think cars
should handle like buicks. honda used to be freakin' awesome and they
made cheap cars that had the potential to behave like a real car should.
but these days, they have their heads so far up their ass with their
copycatting of detroit big trucks, huge heavy sedans, and planned
"downstream revenue" [built-in transmission failures], they've
completely lost sight of what allowed them to break into the u.s. market
in the first place.

if they don't have the gonads to face their incompetence directly, they
should do what toyota have done: launch a separate brand, populate it
with a few models that are CHEAP TO GET INTO, that allow multiple
bolt-in engine configurations, and that have decent wishbone suspension
that has the necessary intrinsics to be tunable. if they had a motor
option that could compete with the wrx or the evo, especially if with a
4wd config, suddenly they'd be every nippon fanboi's wet dream.*

"win on sunday, sell on monday." the old cars sales adage. tried and true.



* have you seen the prices of 4wd civic wagons lately? have you seen
their insane fanatical following among the "2ner" crowd?
unbe-freakin'-lievable!



--
nomina rutrum rutrum

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Tegger > wrote:
>
>> >> Honda didn't recover from that mistake. Instead, they stuck their
>> >> heads in the sand for years and tried to ignore it.
>>
>>
>>
>> <replying to Elmo>
>>
>> They assuredly did not. Even the NHTSA does not generally act until
>> they receive at least 1,000 complaints. Anything below that number
>> tends to fall into the "white noise" category, where it is difficult
>> to determine patterns.
>>
>> Honda waited until they were certain they had a systemic issue, then
>> went -- expensively -- all-out to find a solution. I have personally
>> corresponded with, and advised, numerous owners who had got stuck
>> with the defective transmissions. Just about all of them have had
>> Honda pick up the entire tab for the replacement, and some have
>> struck a deal where Honda paid for the parts and they paid the labor.
>> In most cases, Honda did not argue at all: when the dealership made
>> the "goodwill" out-of- warranty request, Honda agreed immediately.
>
> That was back prior to 2007.



In my case, it's up to 2010.


<snip>

>
> He's the one who told me that Acura still gets it right in the
> details, but that the Honda brand has gone down the toilet.



Acura is just a marketing arm for certain Honda products. Honda V6
automatics are identical whether installed in Acura- or Honda-branded
vehicles.

Most mechanical TSBs for Acura products are word-for-word identical to
Honda TSBs. The only real differences between Acura and Honda are in trim
and comfort/convenience equipment, and that's usually where you find TSBs
unique to each brand.


<more snippage>


I understand your position, and I'm sorry you had the experiences you did.
But all I can relate is what I have seen and been party to.


--
Tegger

On 05/15/2011 02:37 PM, Tegger wrote:
> "Elmo P. > wrote in
> :
>
>> In >,
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>>> Honda didn't recover from that mistake. Instead, they stuck their
>>>>> heads in the sand for years and tried to ignore it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <replying to Elmo>
>>>
>>> They assuredly did not. Even the NHTSA does not generally act until
>>> they receive at least 1,000 complaints. Anything below that number
>>> tends to fall into the "white noise" category, where it is difficult
>>> to determine patterns.
>>>
>>> Honda waited until they were certain they had a systemic issue, then
>>> went -- expensively -- all-out to find a solution. I have personally
>>> corresponded with, and advised, numerous owners who had got stuck
>>> with the defective transmissions. Just about all of them have had
>>> Honda pick up the entire tab for the replacement, and some have
>>> struck a deal where Honda paid for the parts and they paid the labor.
>>> In most cases, Honda did not argue at all: when the dealership made
>>> the "goodwill" out-of- warranty request, Honda agreed immediately.
>>
>> That was back prior to 2007.
>
>
>
> In my case, it's up to 2010.
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>> He's the one who told me that Acura still gets it right in the
>> details, but that the Honda brand has gone down the toilet.
>
>
>
> Acura is just a marketing arm for certain Honda products. Honda V6
> automatics are identical whether installed in Acura- or Honda-branded
> vehicles.
>
> Most mechanical TSBs for Acura products are word-for-word identical to
> Honda TSBs. The only real differences between Acura and Honda are in trim
> and comfort/convenience equipment, and that's usually where you find TSBs
> unique to each brand.
>
>
> <more snippage>
>
>
> I understand your position, and I'm sorry you had the experiences you did.
> But all I can relate is what I have seen and been party to.
>
>

elmo's story is far from unique. friends of mine, both honda and acura
branded vehicles, have had this treatment for accords, tl's and civics
when all these transmissions have prematurely failed. since you're
putting yourself forward as honda's representative on tha interwebs, are
you sure you're not being astroturfed with "genuine" consumer
testimonials that are actually being generated by honda's p.r. agency?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum