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What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 19th 17, 03:43 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Ed Pawlowski
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Posts: 202
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

On 8/19/2017 10:04 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
> Given >, Stormin' Norman
> > wrote:
>
>> The specific products you mentioned above are all synthetic lubricants
>> and cost more to manufacture, hence, they are more expensive at retail
>> than their non-synthetic counterparts.

>
> I think I have the answer as to "why" now, which is that the synthetics
> cost about $70 per gallon while the not synthetics cost about half that, at
> around $35/gallon.
>
> But why, when motor oil is commonly half that still, is gear oil at even
> $35 per gallon, but much more importantly, what would be a reason to choose
> between the $35/gallon SAE 75W90 GL-4 gear oil versus the $70/gallon stuff.


One factor is volume. Regular motor oil is made in much larger
quantities. I don't know about the differences in distilling and
processing to comment about other factors.


>
> Is it all due to synthetics?
> Are synthetics better for a two-decade old 5-speed manual transmission?
>
> The reason I'm looking is that the shifting is getting harder to get into
> gear lately, so someone suggested putting the high end transmission fluid.
>


It may help, but it may not do a damned thing. You have to find the
real cause of the shifting problem. IMO, better lube will have minimal
effect. It does not put metal back on worn parts, it does not
straighten bent linkage.

You would get better results if you describe the actual problem. Hard
to move the shift lever? Gears grinding? Synchronizer slow? Clutch
adjustment? After 20 years a lot of things can be worn. Could be as
simple as a worn pin in the linkage or as compex as main gears worn out.
Ads
  #12  
Old August 19th 17, 03:48 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Bram van den Heuvel
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Posts: 9
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

Given >,
> wrote:

> Rerally nothing of you don't need synthetic. All you NEED is a simple
> GL4 gear oil like the Walmart LubKing GL4. Synthetic doesn't thicken
> as much in the cold, or thin as much in the heat, and MAY last a
> little longer, but not enoughlonger to make it worth 4 times as much
> (there isGL4 oil available for as little as about US$16 a gallon)


I was hoping to get good information like that so I thank you because all
the guys on the Toyota forum are saying to only use Amsoil or Redline but
they don't really know why.

I'm looking at GL4 and SAE 75W90 as those are the specs from Toyota.

My one question to you is if the synthetic doesn't thicken as much in the
cold, how does it keep the 75W and if it doesn't thin out in the heat as
much, how does it keep the 90 rating?

Isn't that what the rating is all about?
So doesn't one 75W90 act the same at cold/hot as another 75W90?
  #13  
Old August 19th 17, 03:50 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Scott Dorsey
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Posts: 3,914
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

Bram van den Heuvel > wrote:
>Given <news > wrote:
>
>> Have you checked Amazon, NAPA, or farm supply stores like Tractor
>> Supply,
>> Rural King, or Orscheln? The first one that pops up at Amazon is $35.

>
>I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
>use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
>transmission.


Well, then buy that.

There are plenty of cheaper GL4 oils out there. Most of the cheaper ones
are not synthetics. They will not have sulfur additives that will damage
nonferrous metals the way GL5 does. But, they also will not last as long
and be as slick as the synthetics.

The synthetics are much more expensive. If they are formulated well, it
is possible to make synthetics that cling to surfaces better, don't degrade
as much with time, and keep junk in solution better. The Red Line will
definitely do these things. Do you need any of these characteristics?
I don't know, but it sounds like "all the Toyota guys" think you do.

>Even the Royal Purple 75W90 gear oil is $60 per gallon.
>https://skspeed.com/royal-purple-013...-gl-5-1-quart/


That's not particularly expensive for a synthetic oil.

>All I want to know is what's so special about these gear oils that they
>cost $60 to $70 a gallon (where I need about a gallon)?


They are synthetic oils, actually genuine synthetics where the base oil
materal has been made from a pure short-chain stock. Whereas natural
petroleum oils are always going to be a mixture of paraffins, napthas,
and napthalines no matter how well they are purified, these are pretty damn
pure. But, it's more expensive to make an oil from ethylene gas than it is
to take an existing oil and purify it.

If you think $70/gal is expensive, you should see what the high purity
instrument oils for rebuilding speedometers costs.

>Looking up the gear oils, I find technical information but nothing answers
>my question which is why I asked here.
>
>A study of automotive gear lubes
>http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf


The answer is mostly that a dollar isn't worth a dollar anymore. Back when
gas was a quarter a gallon, gear oil cost about 25 times what gas did. Today
gas is $2/gal. and gear oil costs about 25 times what gas does.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #14  
Old August 19th 17, 03:51 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Bram van den Heuvel
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Posts: 9
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

Given >, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:

> Is the shifting problem your real issue? You are asking questions
> about why item A is more expensive than item B and that takes us off
> on tangents about refining, manufacturing, etc.


Good point where the answer is that I'm going to change the 20-year-old oil
anyway, just in case that solves the shifting problem and even if it
doesn't solve the shifting problem, it's well past its due date, don't you
think?

So, I have two separate (but combined) issues which are that I have a
shifting problem getting into gear when the clutch seems to be engaging OK
(a bit late in the pedal arc, but still ok) and where it's time to change
the gear oil.

I'll probably do the differential at the same time but that's a different
question because I think that takes GL5.


> If you are having a shifting issue on your 20 year old transmission, I
> would start by thoroughly inspecting the clutch assembly including the
> actuator. There are a number of other reasons why the manual
> transmission might be hard to shift. You can start replacing things
> willy-nilly, but that gets expensive. It is far more logical to
> diagnose the actual cause of the problems.


I agree with you so that's why I would like this thread to just be how to
intelligently choose the transmission gear oil for a twenty-year-old
transmission.
  #15  
Old August 19th 17, 03:52 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Scott Dorsey
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Posts: 3,914
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

Bill > wrote:
>On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
>> I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
>> use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
>> transmission.

>
>Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.


The problem with older cars is that what the manufacturer recommended has
likely been unavailable for decades.

We have this issue with motor oils that don't have the ZDDP levels that
older lifter designs expected.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #16  
Old August 19th 17, 03:58 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 931
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 14:04:58 +0000 (UTC), Bram van den Heuvel
> wrote:

>Given >, Stormin' Norman
> wrote:
>
>> The specific products you mentioned above are all synthetic lubricants
>> and cost more to manufacture, hence, they are more expensive at retail
>> than their non-synthetic counterparts.

>
>I think I have the answer as to "why" now, which is that the synthetics
>cost about $70 per gallon while the not synthetics cost about half that, at
>around $35/gallon.
>
>But why, when motor oil is commonly half that still, is gear oil at even
>$35 per gallon, but much more importantly, what would be a reason to choose
>between the $35/gallon SAE 75W90 GL-4 gear oil versus the $70/gallon stuff.
>
>Is it all due to synthetics?
>Are synthetics better for a two-decade old 5-speed manual transmission?
>
>The reason I'm looking is that the shifting is getting harder to get into
>gear lately, so someone suggested putting the high end transmission fluid.

When I put synthetic in my ranger it GOT hard to shift
  #17  
Old August 19th 17, 03:59 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 931
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 10:08:48 -0400, Bill > wrote:

>On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
>> I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
>> use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
>> transmission.

>
>
>Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.

I was a Toyota service manager for a long time. Synthetic NOT
REQUIRED
  #18  
Old August 19th 17, 04:01 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Ed Pawlowski
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Posts: 202
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

On 8/19/2017 10:48 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:

>
> My one question to you is if the synthetic doesn't thicken as much in the
> cold, how does it keep the 75W and if it doesn't thin out in the heat as
> much, how does it keep the 90 rating?
>
> Isn't that what the rating is all about?
> So doesn't one 75W90 act the same at cold/hot as another 75W90?
>


Better living through chemistry!
  #19  
Old August 19th 17, 04:43 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Scott Dorsey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,914
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

On 8/19/2017 10:48 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
>
> My one question to you is if the synthetic doesn't thicken as much in the
> cold, how does it keep the 75W and if it doesn't thin out in the heat as
> much, how does it keep the 90 rating?
>
> Isn't that what the rating is all about?
> So doesn't one 75W90 act the same at cold/hot as another 75W90?


That's a function of the VI additives, not the base oil. A higher end oil
is apt to have better and more stable VI additives. This means that after
five years in the transmission, it's apt to remain a 75W90 oil, whereas the
less expensive oil probably won't be.

Now, in extreme cold, the synthetic might well be thinner. Remember that
it's a 75W90 oil meaning that two viscosity measurements are made at two
different temperatures. Once you get outside those temperatures, the
behaviour of the different oils will not be the same. This isn't an issue
here in Virginia but it might be a very significant one in Maine.

These days there are a lot of conventional oils that come very close to the
stability and quality of the synthetics, and in the US most of them can be
sold legally as "synthetic" even though they are not really. This makes
the labelling very problematic unless you look very carefully. The Castrol
Syntec 10W-30 can't be sold legally in Europe as a synthetic oil, but the
Syntec 10W-40 can be. If you look carefully at the type approvals on the
label you can see this.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #20  
Old August 19th 17, 04:51 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Willy
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Posts: 1
Default What's so special about gear oil that it's 70 bucks a gallon?

On 8/19/2017 10:52 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Bill > wrote:
>> On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
>>> I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
>>> use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
>>> transmission.

>> Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.

> The problem with older cars is that what the manufacturer recommended has
> likely been unavailable for decades.
>
> We have this issue with motor oils that don't have the ZDDP levels that
> older lifter designs expected.
> --scott



Oh, if you are trying to make this vehicle last forever, quit being such a tightwad and buy the Amsoil.


 




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