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#11
August 22nd 13, 08:12 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:11:37 PM UTC-4, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/21/2013 05:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote: > > > On 8/21/2013 8:33 PM, jim beam wrote: > > >> On 08/21/2013 03:56 AM, wrote: > > >>> I'm under the impression that Porsche is among very > > >>> few car mass production companies that are impervious to > > >>> the "valuable input" from the marketing folks. > > >> > > >> what are you talking about??? porsche wouldn't /exist/ if it wasn't for > > >> "marketing". just like bmw. > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> Bmw was like that before the numb electric > > >>> steering went on 3xx (in F90?) > > >> > > >> there's nothing wrong with electric steering assist any more with > > >> hydraulic power assist. in fact, it has the potential to be > > >> significantly better since it's much more controllable. > > >> > > >> if you think it should have different modes such as "sport feel" and > > >> "soccer mom feel", you have a point, but there's nothing fundamentally > > >> wrong with electric in principle. > > > > > > You are correct that there's nothing wrong with it in principle, but > > > feedback from owners of older model BMWs (even E9x owners, and that's a > > > pretty big, soft car for a 3er) who have driven a F30 are pretty much > > > uniformly negative. Or in other words, they tuned it wrong. It would > > > appear that BMW is diverging farther and farther away from its "sports > > > car in a small sedan body" roots and attempting to sell more upscale > > > Civics and Camrys. Predictably, this is causing disappointment among > > > the faithful, and I have to wonder how many current owners of Japanese > > > makes are going to make the switch and put up with the higher running > > > cost of a BMW when the driving experience becomes less and less > > > differentiated from the Japanese competition. > > > > > > Personally I could easily be tempted to turn Japanese for my next car if > > > the BRZ is any indication of what kind of cars the Japanese are going to > > > be making in the future. > > > > > > nate > > > > quitcherbitching and buy an evo. > Ah, yes, the Evo - the answer to the question "well, it's Japanese, how unreliable could it possibly be?" :/ nate 
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#13
August 23rd 13, 01:42 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On 08/22/2013 12:12 PM, N8N wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:11:37 PM UTC-4, jim beam wrote: >> On 08/21/2013 05:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote: >> >>> On 8/21/2013 8:33 PM, jim beam wrote: >> >>>> On 08/21/2013 03:56 AM, wrote: >> >>>>> I'm under the impression that Porsche is among very >> >>>>> few car mass production companies that are impervious to >> >>>>> the "valuable input" from the marketing folks. >> >>>> >> >>>> what are you talking about??? porsche wouldn't /exist/ if it wasn't for >> >>>> "marketing". just like bmw. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Bmw was like that before the numb electric >> >>>>> steering went on 3xx (in F90?) >> >>>> >> >>>> there's nothing wrong with electric steering assist any more with >> >>>> hydraulic power assist. in fact, it has the potential to be >> >>>> significantly better since it's much more controllable. >> >>>> >> >>>> if you think it should have different modes such as "sport feel" and >> >>>> "soccer mom feel", you have a point, but there's nothing fundamentally >> >>>> wrong with electric in principle. >> >>> >> >>> You are correct that there's nothing wrong with it in principle, but >> >>> feedback from owners of older model BMWs (even E9x owners, and that's a >> >>> pretty big, soft car for a 3er) who have driven a F30 are pretty much >> >>> uniformly negative. Or in other words, they tuned it wrong. It would >> >>> appear that BMW is diverging farther and farther away from its "sports >> >>> car in a small sedan body" roots and attempting to sell more upscale >> >>> Civics and Camrys. Predictably, this is causing disappointment among >> >>> the faithful, and I have to wonder how many current owners of Japanese >> >>> makes are going to make the switch and put up with the higher running >> >>> cost of a BMW when the driving experience becomes less and less >> >>> differentiated from the Japanese competition. >> >>> >> >>> Personally I could easily be tempted to turn Japanese for my next car if >> >>> the BRZ is any indication of what kind of cars the Japanese are going to >> >>> be making in the future. >> >>> >> >>> nate >> >> >> >> quitcherbitching and buy an evo. >> > > Ah, yes, the Evo - the answer to the question "well, it's Japanese, how unreliable could it possibly be?" :/ > > nate > ah yes, the evo - the "ultimate marketing machine" owner's cause for shame and embarrassment. fact is, the evo is way better, by both performance and value for money. reliability too if not tracked. but mitsubishi's marketing [marketing? do they even advertise these days?] doesn't comprise the emperor's clothes tactic that seems to work so superbly with people that don't know any better - i.e. bmw owners that over pay and under receive just because of they're gullible to the world's best ad campaign. -- fact check required
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#14
August 23rd 13, 08:39 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On Friday, August 23, 2013 3:42:48 AM UTC+3, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/22/2013 12:12 PM, N8N wrote: > > > On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:11:37 PM UTC-4, jim beam wrote: > > >> On 08/21/2013 05:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote: > > >> > > >>> On 8/21/2013 8:33 PM, jim beam wrote: > > >> > > >>>> On 08/21/2013 03:56 AM, wrote: > > >> > > >>>>> I'm under the impression that Porsche is among very > > >> > > >>>>> few car mass production companies that are impervious to > > >> > > >>>>> the "valuable input" from the marketing folks. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> what are you talking about??? porsche wouldn't /exist/ if it wasn't for > > >> > > >>>> "marketing". just like bmw. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>>> > > >> > > >>>>> Bmw was like that before the numb electric > > >> > > >>>>> steering went on 3xx (in F90?) > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> there's nothing wrong with electric steering assist any more with > > >> > > >>>> hydraulic power assist. in fact, it has the potential to be > > >> > > >>>> significantly better since it's much more controllable. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> if you think it should have different modes such as "sport feel" and > > >> > > >>>> "soccer mom feel", you have a point, but there's nothing fundamentally > > >> > > >>>> wrong with electric in principle. > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> You are correct that there's nothing wrong with it in principle, but > > >> > > >>> feedback from owners of older model BMWs (even E9x owners, and that's a > > >> > > >>> pretty big, soft car for a 3er) who have driven a F30 are pretty much > > >> > > >>> uniformly negative. Or in other words, they tuned it wrong. It would > > >> > > >>> appear that BMW is diverging farther and farther away from its "sports > > >> > > >>> car in a small sedan body" roots and attempting to sell more upscale > > >> > > >>> Civics and Camrys. Predictably, this is causing disappointment among > > >> > > >>> the faithful, and I have to wonder how many current owners of Japanese > > >> > > >>> makes are going to make the switch and put up with the higher running > > >> > > >>> cost of a BMW when the driving experience becomes less and less > > >> > > >>> differentiated from the Japanese competition. > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> Personally I could easily be tempted to turn Japanese for my next car if > > >> > > >>> the BRZ is any indication of what kind of cars the Japanese are going to > > >> > > >>> be making in the future. > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> nate > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> quitcherbitching and buy an evo. > > >> > > > > > > Ah, yes, the Evo - the answer to the question "well, it's Japanese, how unreliable could it possibly be?" :/ > > > > > > nate > > > > > > > ah yes, the evo - the "ultimate marketing machine" owner's cause for > > shame and embarrassment. > > > > fact is, the evo is way better, by both performance and value for money. > > reliability too if not tracked. but mitsubishi's marketing > > [marketing? do they even advertise these days?] doesn't comprise the > > emperor's clothes tactic that seems to work so superbly with people that > > don't know any better - i.e. bmw owners that over pay and under receive > > just because of they're gullible to the world's best ad campaign. > Nah. I'd take E34 if it was still made over evo any day. I think 2 dacade old bmw still has better nvh than that mutsu
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#15
August 25th 13, 10:53 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On Thursday, 22 August 2013 08:33:15 UTC+8, jim beam wrote:
> > imo, the people that complain about fwd don't know how to drive fwd. > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND6aoEPLxYU> > > do your homework - that "****mobile" beat 4wd's in its day. as did the > > original mini's beat the rwd's of their day. > > > Most British cars were stodgy ****e when the Mini came out, so the Mini was seen the greatest thing since sliced organic wholemeal bread.
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#16
August 25th 13, 03:50 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On 08/22/2013 08:42 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/22/2013 12:12 PM, N8N wrote: >> On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:11:37 PM UTC-4, jim beam wrote: >>> On 08/21/2013 05:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote: >>> >>>> On 8/21/2013 8:33 PM, jim beam wrote: >>> >>>>> On 08/21/2013 03:56 AM, wrote: >>> >>>>>> I'm under the impression that Porsche is among very >>> >>>>>> few car mass production companies that are impervious to >>> >>>>>> the "valuable input" from the marketing folks. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> what are you talking about??? porsche wouldn't /exist/ if it >>>>> wasn't for >>> >>>>> "marketing". just like bmw. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Bmw was like that before the numb electric >>> >>>>>> steering went on 3xx (in F90?) >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> there's nothing wrong with electric steering assist any more with >>> >>>>> hydraulic power assist. in fact, it has the potential to be >>> >>>>> significantly better since it's much more controllable. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> if you think it should have different modes such as "sport feel" and >>> >>>>> "soccer mom feel", you have a point, but there's nothing fundamentally >>> >>>>> wrong with electric in principle. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> You are correct that there's nothing wrong with it in principle, but >>> >>>> feedback from owners of older model BMWs (even E9x owners, and that's a >>> >>>> pretty big, soft car for a 3er) who have driven a F30 are pretty much >>> >>>> uniformly negative. Or in other words, they tuned it wrong. It would >>> >>>> appear that BMW is diverging farther and farther away from its "sports >>> >>>> car in a small sedan body" roots and attempting to sell more upscale >>> >>>> Civics and Camrys. Predictably, this is causing disappointment among >>> >>>> the faithful, and I have to wonder how many current owners of Japanese >>> >>>> makes are going to make the switch and put up with the higher running >>> >>>> cost of a BMW when the driving experience becomes less and less >>> >>>> differentiated from the Japanese competition. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Personally I could easily be tempted to turn Japanese for my next >>>> car if >>> >>>> the BRZ is any indication of what kind of cars the Japanese are >>>> going to >>> >>>> be making in the future. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> nate >>> >>> >>> >>> quitcherbitching and buy an evo. >>> >> >> Ah, yes, the Evo - the answer to the question "well, it's Japanese, >> how unreliable could it possibly be?" :/ >> >> nate >> > > ah yes, the evo - the "ultimate marketing machine" owner's cause for > shame and embarrassment. Really? A Bimmer is comfortable, practical, handles better (at least on road) some models can be almost as fast, and is FAR less likely to be busted at the side of the road. > > fact is, the evo is way better, by both performance and value for money. > reliability too if not tracked. but mitsubishi's marketing > [marketing? do they even advertise these days?] doesn't comprise the > emperor's clothes tactic that seems to work so superbly with people that > don't know any better - i.e. bmw owners that over pay and under receive > just because of they're gullible to the world's best ad campaign. The Evo reminds me of the old days of Ferrari - slap together a road car as quickly as possible and sell it for as much as possible to starry-eyed race (well, rally) fans to fund the racing efforts which is where the company actually puts its engineering effort. For a day to day driver for those in touch with their inner Finn, a WRX STi would be a far more practical option to an Evo. Again, almost as fast, far more reliable and durable, and built by a company that won't invite you to do anatomically improbable things to yourself if you have a problem and they have any suspicion that you have done anything other to the car than drive it on paved public roads in constant compliance with the speed limit. Now I have no explanation for the original Eclipse; it's like Mitsubishi screwed up and inadvertantly made a legitimately good car. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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#17
August 25th 13, 03:54 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On 08/23/2013 03:39 AM, wrote:
> On Friday, August 23, 2013 3:42:48 AM UTC+3, jim beam wrote: >> On 08/22/2013 12:12 PM, N8N wrote: >> >>> On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:11:37 PM UTC-4, jim beam wrote: >> >>>> On 08/21/2013 05:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> On 8/21/2013 8:33 PM, jim beam wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On 08/21/2013 03:56 AM, wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I'm under the impression that Porsche is among very >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> few car mass production companies that are impervious to >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> the "valuable input" from the marketing folks. >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> what are you talking about??? porsche wouldn't /exist/ if it wasn't for >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "marketing". just like bmw. >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Bmw was like that before the numb electric >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> steering went on 3xx (in F90?) >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> there's nothing wrong with electric steering assist any more with >> >>>> >> >>>>>> hydraulic power assist. in fact, it has the potential to be >> >>>> >> >>>>>> significantly better since it's much more controllable. >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> if you think it should have different modes such as "sport feel" and >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "soccer mom feel", you have a point, but there's nothing fundamentally >> >>>> >> >>>>>> wrong with electric in principle. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> You are correct that there's nothing wrong with it in principle, but >> >>>> >> >>>>> feedback from owners of older model BMWs (even E9x owners, and that's a >> >>>> >> >>>>> pretty big, soft car for a 3er) who have driven a F30 are pretty much >> >>>> >> >>>>> uniformly negative. Or in other words, they tuned it wrong. It would >> >>>> >> >>>>> appear that BMW is diverging farther and farther away from its "sports >> >>>> >> >>>>> car in a small sedan body" roots and attempting to sell more upscale >> >>>> >> >>>>> Civics and Camrys. Predictably, this is causing disappointment among >> >>>> >> >>>>> the faithful, and I have to wonder how many current owners of Japanese >> >>>> >> >>>>> makes are going to make the switch and put up with the higher running >> >>>> >> >>>>> cost of a BMW when the driving experience becomes less and less >> >>>> >> >>>>> differentiated from the Japanese competition. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Personally I could easily be tempted to turn Japanese for my next car if >> >>>> >> >>>>> the BRZ is any indication of what kind of cars the Japanese are going to >> >>>> >> >>>>> be making in the future. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> nate >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> quitcherbitching and buy an evo. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> Ah, yes, the Evo - the answer to the question "well, it's Japanese, how unreliable could it possibly be?" :/ >> >>> >> >>> nate >> >>> >> >> >> >> ah yes, the evo - the "ultimate marketing machine" owner's cause for >> >> shame and embarrassment. >> >> >> >> fact is, the evo is way better, by both performance and value for money. >> >> reliability too if not tracked. but mitsubishi's marketing >> >> [marketing? do they even advertise these days?] doesn't comprise the >> >> emperor's clothes tactic that seems to work so superbly with people that >> >> don't know any better - i.e. bmw owners that over pay and under receive >> >> just because of they're gullible to the world's best ad campaign. >> > > Nah. I'd take E34 if it was still made over evo any day. > I think 2 dacade old bmw still has better nvh than that mutsu > Oddly, I was at my friend's shop the other day and had a long chat with a gentleman still driving an E36 (3 series roughly contemporary to the E34 5er) daily. Guy had a complaint a slight noise in the brakes after a recent brake job which I suspect was either slightly sticky slider pins, a little corrosion on the rotor to hub mating surfaces, or both. That was his main current complaint with the car which is showing over 200K miles. I suspect that most Mitsus don't make it to 200K miles as they nickel and dime their owners to death long before that. There was in fact a newer Lancer in one of the bays and had been for several days, but I didn't ask what it was in for. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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#18
August 25th 13, 03:58 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On 08/22/2013 05:00 PM, bugalugs wrote:
> On 22/08/2013 4:52 p.m., T0m $herman wrote: >> On 8/21/2013 11:04 PM, jim beam wrote: >>> On 08/21/2013 08:46 PM, T0m $herman wrote: >>>> On 8/21/2013 10:11 PM, jim beam wrote: >>>>> On 08/21/2013 05:52 PM, Nate Nagel wrote: >>>>>> On 8/21/2013 8:33 PM, jim beam wrote: >>>>>>> On 08/21/2013 03:56 AM, wrote: >>>>>>>> I'm under the impression that Porsche is among very >>>>>>>> few car mass production companies that are impervious to >>>>>>>> the "valuable input" from the marketing folks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what are you talking about??? porsche wouldn't /exist/ if it wasn't >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> "marketing". just like bmw. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bmw was like that before the numb electric >>>>>>>> steering went on 3xx (in F90?) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> there's nothing wrong with electric steering assist any more with >>>>>>> hydraulic power assist. in fact, it has the potential to be >>>>>>> significantly better since it's much more controllable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> if you think it should have different modes such as "sport feel" and >>>>>>> "soccer mom feel", you have a point, but there's nothing >>>>>>> fundamentally >>>>>>> wrong with electric in principle. >>>>>> >>>>>> You are correct that there's nothing wrong with it in principle, but >>>>>> feedback from owners of older model BMWs (even E9x owners, and >>>>>> that's a >>>>>> pretty big, soft car for a 3er) who have driven a F30 are pretty much >>>>>> uniformly negative. Or in other words, they tuned it wrong. It >>>>>> would >>>>>> appear that BMW is diverging farther and farther away from its >>>>>> "sports >>>>>> car in a small sedan body" roots and attempting to sell more upscale >>>>>> Civics and Camrys. Predictably, this is causing disappointment among >>>>>> the faithful, and I have to wonder how many current owners of >>>>>> Japanese >>>>>> makes are going to make the switch and put up with the higher running >>>>>> cost of a BMW when the driving experience becomes less and less >>>>>> differentiated from the Japanese competition. >>>>>> >>>>>> Personally I could easily be tempted to turn Japanese for my next >>>>>> car if >>>>>> the BRZ is any indication of what kind of cars the Japanese are >>>>>> going to >>>>>> be making in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> nate >>>>> >>>>> quitcherbitching and buy an evo. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I wish the Japanese still made cars like this one: >>>> <http://chrisoncars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/3716724671_f0b9f008cb.jpg>. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> these things are interesting too: >>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_AE86> >>> and let's not forget the datsun 2000's >>> >>> but the crx is the one that still rocks my world. >>> >>> >> Now this is a car to die for! >> >> <http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt240/trikerider/Cars%20I%20Have%20Owned/003DatsonF10.jpg> >> >> >> > You're right......I wouldn't be seen dead in it > I actually like it save for the woodgrain. It's distinctly Japanese, but from a time when Japanese design was quirky but kind of endearing rather than the angular, uninviting plastickiness of the 80's. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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#19
August 25th 13, 05:14 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On 08/25/2013 07:54 AM, Nate Nagel blathered:
<snip usual irrelevance> > I suspect you "suspect"??? i would merely "suspect" that you're an insufferable blathering idiot if you didn't insist on proving it. > that most Mitsus don't make it to 200K miles as they nickel > and dime their owners to death fact-free projected-to-justify-poor-advertisinging-susceptibility drivel - and like bmw /NEVER/ actually [as opposed to suppositionally] do that. that's why they use high silica brake pads to make sure disks last only one set, not two or three like other manufacturers. that's why their radiators burst. that's why they only use a wear indicator on one brake pad of one wheel. etc long boring etc. but why do i bother - you're completely bought in to the world's ultimate marketing campaign and no factual reality could ever enter your already ultimately challenged cranium. -- fact check required
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#20
August 25th 13, 05:28 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
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fwd **** propagation
On 08/25/2013 07:50 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 08/22/2013 08:42 PM, jim beam wrote: <snip crap> >> >> ah yes, the evo - the "ultimate marketing machine" owner's cause for >> shame and embarrassment. > > Really? A Bimmer is comfortable, practical, handles better (at least on > road) some models can be almost as fast, ???? to be "almost as fast", you need to spend a good deal more than $38k on your ultimate marketing purchase bucko. > and is FAR less likely to be > busted at the side of the road. that's because bmw roadside assistance is included free - they flat-bed that carp out of there asap so it's busted in the workshop not at the side of the road where it looks bad. > >> >> fact is, the evo is way better, by both performance and value for money. >> reliability too if not tracked. but mitsubishi's marketing >> [marketing? do they even advertise these days?] doesn't comprise the >> emperor's clothes tactic that seems to work so superbly with people that >> don't know any better - i.e. bmw owners that over pay and under receive >> just because of they're gullible to the world's best ad campaign. > > The Evo reminds me of the old days of Ferrari - slap together a road car > as quickly as possible and sell it for as much as possible to > starry-eyed race (well, rally) fans to fund the racing efforts which is > where the company actually puts its engineering effort. driveling idiot. you're simply trying to justifying spending more and getting less. -- fact check required
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