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Civic lug studs



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 26th 12, 04:56 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
jim beam[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,204
Default Civic lug studs

On 06/25/2012 08:18 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 06/25/2012 03:16 PM, Tegger wrote:
>> wrote in :
>>
>>>
>>> hammering doesn't seem like a very bright idea,

>>
>>
>> Hammering works just fine;

>
> yes, it removes studs just fine. it brinells bearings just fine too.
>
>
>> thje pros do it all the time.

>
> the same "pros" that think they can "cure" radiator electrode potentials
> by "grounding"? or the pros that are happy when you come back because a
> bearing has inexplicably gone?
>
> fact: every single bearing manufacturer out there says never to hammer.
> there is a reason for that.
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/bearings/productlist/roller/cylindrical/Documents/BDABrochure5892.pdf&sa=U&ei=ESnpT8GoDoLY2AXSgKGtAg &ved=0CBkQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNEiHgb1h3pDfMHgDLVhmfotBy4 mhw>


forgot: see page 21.


>
>
>
>> Imagine the
>> pounding the wheel bearing takes in everyday use; you're unlikely to
>> exceed
>> that as you remove the old stud.

>
> completely to the contrary. the "pounding" the bearing experiences as
> transmitted through a nice soft cushy tire is one to two orders of
> magnitude less than that imparted by a direct hammer blow.
>
>
>> The stud is on there with less force than
>> you might think.

>
> which makes it nice and easy to press out with the correct tool.
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I think it is the angle with the broken stud verses the new longer
>>> stud that makes the difference.

>>
>>
>> That's all it is.
>>
>>
>> Once you get the new on in place, you use the lug nut and some washers to
>> pull it all the way on.
>>
>>
>>> Other comments suggest that you could
>>> bang it into place, at risk of the threads. And several videos and
>>> picture posts show some bar resting against the other studs to keep
>>> the hub from turning. I wouldn't do that for fear of flattening those
>>> threads. I might use a wooden handled sledge hammer.
>>>

>>
>> Or put the brakes back together again, then have a helper step on the
>> pedal
>> to hold the disk while you pull the stud in place.
>>
>>

>
>



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  #12  
Old July 1st 12, 11:59 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
[email protected]
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Posts: 9
Default Civic lug studs

jim beam > wrote:
> i haven't done this job on a 2003, but on other civics, you just remove
> the brake caliper, then the brake disk, and that gives you enough room
> to press the stud out.


Well, this didn't turn out well at all.
It took three different auto parts stores to actually get the stud. They
all have the Dorman drawers full of studs and nuts, but the Honda part is
empty in two of them.

I forgot to pick up the impact driver, and whacking a regular screwdriver
while twisting the shank with a vise grip didn't work. Back to the store
for the impact driver, which I promptly broke loosening the second screw.

Fortunately, I had already asked my neighbor, and while he was visiting
someone else, he asked them... I had one I could borrow.

Off came the caliper, pads, caliper holding bracket, disk. The disk is
levered off using the brake hose holding bolt, which is different thread
pitch than the caliper bolts of the same diameter. The screws that hold
the disk on could easily have performed the task, if Honda had bothered to
thread both holes the same.
I remember now that the Mazda did that. I thought it was a lug bolt, but
it wasn't. There were locating pins to hold the wheel in place, because
they used lug bolts, and those pins both held the drum on, and backed it
off, when moved to different holes. If Honda had lug bolts, I'd have been
finished a week ago.

> it's very important to press it out, not hammer it - hammering brinell's
> the bearings. you can usually rent a press from your local flaps, or
> you can make one from a socket and a c-clamp. the former is a much
> easier option.


Using an impact driver without hammering is a bit of a problem, but I did
try to press out the stud. There is not enough room between the hub and
the bearing housing to get anything in there. So I gave it a little whack,
and it moved, so I gave it another little whack, and it moved, and stopped,
lodged firmly against the bearing housing. It is not possible to get a
stud out of this hub while it is in place on the vehicle.
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT.

Now, I had the stud backed out to the point where the wheel won't turn, and
there's no way to press or pry it back into place. I had to grind off the
mangled threads on the stud to get down to some fresh threads, so I could
put a lug nut on it and pull it back into place.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
  #13  
Old July 4th 12, 09:08 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
jim beam[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,204
Default Civic lug studs

On 07/01/2012 03:59 PM, wrote:
> jim > wrote:
>> i haven't done this job on a 2003, but on other civics, you just remove
>> the brake caliper, then the brake disk, and that gives you enough room
>> to press the stud out.

>
> Well, this didn't turn out well at all.
> It took three different auto parts stores to actually get the stud. They
> all have the Dorman drawers full of studs and nuts, but the Honda part is
> empty in two of them.
>
> I forgot to pick up the impact driver, and whacking a regular screwdriver
> while twisting the shank with a vise grip didn't work.


those so-called "impact drivers" are little better than screwdrivers -
they exert little or no torque in my experience. and they completely
conflict with what was said earlier about brinelling bearings.


> Back to the store
> for the impact driver, which I promptly broke loosening the second screw.


the only reason the screwdriver didn't "do it" was because the polymer
handle wasn't transmitting the blow. see above re brinelling bearings.

the only kind of impact driver to use in this situation is a rotary impact.


>
> Fortunately, I had already asked my neighbor, and while he was visiting
> someone else, he asked them... I had one I could borrow.
>
> Off came the caliper, pads, caliper holding bracket, disk. The disk is
> levered off using the brake hose holding bolt, which is different thread
> pitch than the caliper bolts of the same diameter. The screws that hold
> the disk on could easily have performed the task, if Honda had bothered to
> thread both holes the same.


most of the time, you don't /need/ to lever the disks off. simply
loosening the wheel. driving and hard braking [forward and reverse]
usually does that much better.


> I remember now that the Mazda did that. I thought it was a lug bolt, but
> it wasn't. There were locating pins to hold the wheel in place, because
> they used lug bolts, and those pins both held the drum on, and backed it
> off, when moved to different holes. If Honda had lug bolts, I'd have been
> finished a week ago.
>
>> it's very important to press it out, not hammer it - hammering brinell's
>> the bearings. you can usually rent a press from your local flaps, or
>> you can make one from a socket and a c-clamp. the former is a much
>> easier option.

>
> Using an impact driver without hammering is a bit of a problem,


it's not a real "impact driver" since there's hardly and "drive", it's
merely a glorified punch.


> but I did
> try to press out the stud. There is not enough room between the hub and
> the bearing housing to get anything in there. So I gave it a little whack,
> and it moved, so I gave it another little whack, and it moved, and stopped,
> lodged firmly against the bearing housing. It is not possible to get a
> stud out of this hub while it is in place on the vehicle.
> 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT.


i have to ask, and i'm not trying to diminish the worthiness of diy
repair, but if you observed that "There is not enough room between the
hub and the bearing housing to get anything in there", why did you
proceed to punch the stud? would the fact that the old one didn't have
clearance to be removed not have tipped you off to the possibility of
insertion of a new one being similarly challenged?


>
> Now, I had the stud backed out to the point where the wheel won't turn, and
> there's no way to press or pry it back into place. I had to grind off the
> mangled threads on the stud to get down to some fresh threads, so I could
> put a lug nut on it and pull it back into place.


sounds like you need to disassemble the hub. be prepared to replace the
bearing at the same time. double row ball bearings like this, once
fitted, won't reassemble without damage. better to do it as part of the
stud job than have to come back to it a couple of weeks from now and
disassemble the hub a second time.


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fact check required
  #14  
Old July 9th 12, 08:18 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
[email protected]
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Posts: 9
Default Civic lug studs

jim beam > wrote:
> those so-called "impact drivers" are little better than screwdrivers -


The 30 year old one that I misplaced didn't transmit any torque last time I
used it. It was just a big convenient handle for me to twist while banging
on the screw. As I recall, I never used it against any bearings.

> i have to ask, and i'm not trying to diminish the worthiness of diy
> repair, but if you observed that "There is not enough room between the
> hub and the bearing housing to get anything in there", why did you
> proceed to punch the stud? would the fact that the old one didn't have
> clearance to be removed not have tipped you off to the possibility of
> insertion of a new one being similarly challenged?


The scheme expressed on the DIY web was that the old one would make it's
way out, and the new one would have to have a portion of the head ground
off to fit back in. Punching the stud was a worthless endeavor, and I knew
it. My DIY was a lot more worthy in the past. I have rebuilt piston and
rotary motors, and did some impressive parking lot repairs, but that was
long ago, before I found it more convenient to have someone else do the
work for me.
Disk pads is about the only thing I've done in several years, because the
price is so outrageous compared to the amount of labor.


> sounds like you need to disassemble the hub. be prepared to replace the
> bearing at the same time. double row ball bearings like this, once
> fitted, won't reassemble without damage. better to do it as part of the
> stud job than have to come back to it a couple of weeks from now and
> disassemble the hub a second time.


That sounds like a recording from the shop. ;-)
I'm going to take the knuckle off and down to him for pressing, and replace
the bearing and four studs. If I do this one day on the other side, I
don't think I'll even bother to take those two screws out to get the disk
off. I'll just haul it down to him as part of the knuckle.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
  #15  
Old July 9th 12, 09:57 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
jim beam[_4_]
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Posts: 3,204
Default Civic lug studs

On 07/09/2012 12:18 PM, wrote:
> jim > wrote:
>> those so-called "impact drivers" are little better than screwdrivers -

>
> The 30 year old one that I misplaced didn't transmit any torque last time I
> used it. It was just a big convenient handle for me to twist while banging
> on the screw. As I recall, I never used it against any bearings.
>
>> i have to ask, and i'm not trying to diminish the worthiness of diy
>> repair, but if you observed that "There is not enough room between the
>> hub and the bearing housing to get anything in there", why did you
>> proceed to punch the stud? would the fact that the old one didn't have
>> clearance to be removed not have tipped you off to the possibility of
>> insertion of a new one being similarly challenged?

>
> The scheme expressed on the DIY web was that the old one would make it's
> way out, and the new one would have to have a portion of the head ground
> off to fit back in. Punching the stud was a worthless endeavor, and I knew
> it. My DIY was a lot more worthy in the past. I have rebuilt piston and
> rotary motors, and did some impressive parking lot repairs, but that was
> long ago, before I found it more convenient to have someone else do the
> work for me.
> Disk pads is about the only thing I've done in several years, because the
> price is so outrageous compared to the amount of labor.


agreed.

you could still do this stud if you're prepared to cut out a hole in the
disk's splash guard. they're not structural, and once the stud is
replaced, you can duct tape [or better yet, sticky aluminum tape] over
the hole to cover it again. that way, no additional expense or new
bearings.


>
>
>> sounds like you need to disassemble the hub. be prepared to replace the
>> bearing at the same time. double row ball bearings like this, once
>> fitted, won't reassemble without damage. better to do it as part of the
>> stud job than have to come back to it a couple of weeks from now and
>> disassemble the hub a second time.

>
> That sounds like a recording from the shop. ;-)


well, it's the truth, although their motivation for telling you might be
slightly different from mine.


> I'm going to take the knuckle off and down to him for pressing, and replace
> the bearing and four studs. If I do this one day on the other side, I
> don't think I'll even bother to take those two screws out to get the disk
> off. I'll just haul it down to him as part of the knuckle.


look into the splash guard hole if money is an issue.


--
fact check required
  #16  
Old July 16th 12, 04:12 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
[email protected]
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Posts: 9
Default Civic lug studs

jim beam > wrote:
> you could still do this stud if you're prepared to cut out a hole in the
> disk's splash guard. they're not structural, and once the stud is


I would be willing to do various things to the splash guard, but that's not
the problem, it is the bearing area.

> look into the splash guard hole if money is an issue.


I would be happy to eliminate some money flow in the mechanical area over
the past couple of months.
(PTU in a Ford Escape AWD, Ford Braking System message, Ford outer tie rod
ends, overlooked and then replaced inner tie rod ends, starter and clutch
problems on a John Deere tractor, coil on a weed eater.)

The Honda should be fixed tomorrow, if the parts have arrived.


--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
  #19  
Old July 27th 12, 01:30 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda
[email protected]
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Posts: 9
Default Civic lug studs

jim beam > wrote:
> indeed. and that's why i still do that kind of work myself. it's
> better to have a 20t a-frame press sitting out in the garage idle most
> of the time than it is to have to deal with cock-ups like this.


But I don't want to, any more. I ought to be able to get a mechanic that
can at least do the things I know how to do. ;-(

I intend to back off that one acorn and have a look.
It might be that they used it to pull in the new studs, and didn't have a
pad to make up for the missing wheel. Maybe they pressed them in.

On the plus side, I think that the bearing was going bad. I think the car
is quieter now.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
 




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