Impressive auto

In article >, kkt > wrote:

> Alan Baker > writes:
>
> > In article >,
> > "Michael G. Koerner" > wrote:
> >
> > > Bill Z. wrote:
> > > > Alan Baker > writes:
> > > >
> > > >> In article
> > > >> >,
> > > >> Carl Rogers > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hi Viatologists,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Wow... Here's an outfit out of Carlsbad, Calif. (outside San Diego)
> > > >>> who reportedly offers a car capable of 300 MPG:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> http://www.aptera.com
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If you've got $30,000 (USD), patience, California residency and a
> > > >>> sense of adventure, have at it! Oh yeah... No--it does not fly.
> > > >> And...
> > > >>
> > > >> ...oh, yeah...
> > > >>
> > > >> ...the production model doesn't exist and as of now has no firm
> > > >> introduction date.
> > > >>
> > > >> They don't even have the funding to build the production facilities
> > > >> yet.
> > > >
> > > > Better, check out <http://www.aptera.com/details.php>, which claims the
> > > > mileage drops with how far you drive, going to an asymptotic value of
> > > > 130 miles per gallon. This sounds crazy, but what they seem to be
> > > > doing is measuring on-board fuel consumption and not counting the
> > > > energy stored in the battery as part of the fuel.
> > > >
> > > > It's basically a three-wheel electric or hybrid motorcycle with a
> > > > faring to cut air drag, and seems to be able to seat two people.
> > > > You can plug it in to recharge the battery.
> > >
> > > Yea, but how much will it cost and how much coal will be burned to
> > > recharge
> > > the battery when you plug it in?
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> > about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> >
> > It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
> > sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
> > power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
>
> There's some truth to that. However, electric vehicles would be
> plugged in mainly at night, when existing demand is at its lowest.
> Might be able to supply them primarily with hydro after all.

Ummmmm... ...no.

Electric cars are going to add lots of load at two very obvious times:

When everyone commutes in to the office and parks, what do they do? They
plug in, of course! So spike in demand from 0800 - 1000.

And the same again when everyone returns home. They all plug in their
electric cars right then and there, because the last thing anyone will
want when they go out to use their cars later in the evening is for it
to be sitting with a half charge. So another spike from 1600 - 1800.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Alan Baker > writes:

> In article >,
> (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
>
> > In article ]>,
> > Alan Baker > wrote:
> > >
> > >One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> > >about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> > >
> > >It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
> > >sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
> > >power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
> >
> > Coal and hydro are both base load. When demand spikes, they fire up
> > oil and natural gas generators. Except in California, where they burn
> > natural gas for base load, then wonder why electricity costs so much.
>
> That's not the way it is in BC or Ontario (the two regions with which
> I'm familiar), but the point is somewhat moot.
>
> The real point is that if electric cars are going to need electricity
> derived from fossil fuels, then there is no real advantage over internal
> combustion vehicles. In fact, if one remembers that electricity is
> neither produced nor transported with 100% efficiency, electric cars
> could in theory produce *more* greenhouse gases than highly efficient IC
> cars.

You can justify a lot more expensive pollution control equipment on
one power plant than you can on 10,000 cars...

-- Patrick

In article >, kkt > wrote:

> Alan Baker > writes:
>
> > In article >,
> > (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > > ]>,
> > > Alan Baker > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> > > >about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> > > >
> > > >It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
> > > >sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
> > > >power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
> > >
> > > Coal and hydro are both base load. When demand spikes, they fire up
> > > oil and natural gas generators. Except in California, where they burn
> > > natural gas for base load, then wonder why electricity costs so much.
> >
> > That's not the way it is in BC or Ontario (the two regions with which
> > I'm familiar), but the point is somewhat moot.
> >
> > The real point is that if electric cars are going to need electricity
> > derived from fossil fuels, then there is no real advantage over internal
> > combustion vehicles. In fact, if one remembers that electricity is
> > neither produced nor transported with 100% efficiency, electric cars
> > could in theory produce *more* greenhouse gases than highly efficient IC
> > cars.
>
> You can justify a lot more expensive pollution control equipment on
> one power plant than you can on 10,000 cars...
>
> -- Patrick

True, but modern cars are getting pretty good at pollution control as it
is...

....and all the pollution control in the world won't do anything about
CO2.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Alan Baker > writes:

> In article >, kkt > wrote:
>
> > Alan Baker > writes:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > "Michael G. Koerner" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bill Z. wrote:
> > > > > Alan Baker > writes:
> > > > >
> > > > >> In article
> > > > >> >,
> > > > >> Carl Rogers > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi Viatologists,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Wow... Here's an outfit out of Carlsbad, Calif. (outside San Diego)
> > > > >>> who reportedly offers a car capable of 300 MPG:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> http://www.aptera.com
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> If you've got $30,000 (USD), patience, California residency and a
> > > > >>> sense of adventure, have at it! Oh yeah... No--it does not fly.
> > > > >> And...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ...oh, yeah...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ...the production model doesn't exist and as of now has no firm
> > > > >> introduction date.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> They don't even have the funding to build the production facilities
> > > > >> yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Better, check out <http://www.aptera.com/details.php>, which claims the
> > > > > mileage drops with how far you drive, going to an asymptotic value of
> > > > > 130 miles per gallon. This sounds crazy, but what they seem to be
> > > > > doing is measuring on-board fuel consumption and not counting the
> > > > > energy stored in the battery as part of the fuel.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's basically a three-wheel electric or hybrid motorcycle with a
> > > > > faring to cut air drag, and seems to be able to seat two people.
> > > > > You can plug it in to recharge the battery.
> > > >
> > > > Yea, but how much will it cost and how much coal will be burned to
> > > > recharge
> > > > the battery when you plug it in?
> > >
> > > Yup.
> > >
> > > One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> > > about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> > >
> > > It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
> > > sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
> > > power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
> >
> > There's some truth to that. However, electric vehicles would be
> > plugged in mainly at night, when existing demand is at its lowest.
> > Might be able to supply them primarily with hydro after all.
>
> Ummmmm... ...no.
>
> Electric cars are going to add lots of load at two very obvious times:
>
> When everyone commutes in to the office and parks, what do they do? They
> plug in, of course! So spike in demand from 0800 - 1000.

No. Employers aren't going to let their employees charge their cars
at company expense, any more than they let them fill their tanks at
company expense. There's no outlets in the parking lot now, and I
don't think they'll be installing them.

Cars will have to be able to make it to and from work on a single
charge. Long-distance commuters for whom that's a problem will be
stuck with gas or hybrids.

> And the same again when everyone returns home. They all plug in their
> electric cars right then and there, because the last thing anyone will
> want when they go out to use their cars later in the evening is for it
> to be sitting with a half charge. So another spike from 1600 - 1800.

That's a little more likely, but it does correspond with a decrease in
demand as workplaces close.

Perhaps utilities will start charging more for peak power. Some
already do. If utilities do that, it would be easy to install a timer
so it doesn't start charging until midnight.

-- Patrick

In article >, kkt > wrote:

<snip>

> > > > > Yea, but how much will it cost and how much coal will be burned to
> > > > > recharge
> > > > > the battery when you plug it in?
> > > >
> > > > Yup.
> > > >
> > > > One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> > > > about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> > > >
> > > > It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
> > > > sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
> > > > power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
> > >
> > > There's some truth to that. However, electric vehicles would be
> > > plugged in mainly at night, when existing demand is at its lowest.
> > > Might be able to supply them primarily with hydro after all.
> >
> > Ummmmm... ...no.
> >
> > Electric cars are going to add lots of load at two very obvious times:
> >
> > When everyone commutes in to the office and parks, what do they do? They
> > plug in, of course! So spike in demand from 0800 - 1000.
>
> No. Employers aren't going to let their employees charge their cars
> at company expense, any more than they let them fill their tanks at
> company expense. There's no outlets in the parking lot now, and I
> don't think they'll be installing them.

Hmmmm...

So people will need to charge their vehicles -- potentially -- and you
don't think that anyone will come up with a way to charge for the charge?

>
> Cars will have to be able to make it to and from work on a single
> charge. Long-distance commuters for whom that's a problem will be
> stuck with gas or hybrids.

Because in our society nobody ever comes up with a means to sell
something.

If no one else jumps on the opportunity first, I'd love to be the guy
who invented a little pay-for-juice charging station you could install
in parking lots.



>
> > And the same again when everyone returns home. They all plug in their
> > electric cars right then and there, because the last thing anyone will
> > want when they go out to use their cars later in the evening is for it
> > to be sitting with a half charge. So another spike from 1600 - 1800.
>
> That's a little more likely, but it does correspond with a decrease in
> demand as workplaces close.

Do a little study. Early evening is on-peak in winter and mid-peak in
summer and late afternoon is the reverse.

Now add millions of electric cars...

>
> Perhaps utilities will start charging more for peak power. Some
> already do. If utilities do that, it would be easy to install a timer
> so it doesn't start charging until midnight.

And then you won't have a car you can use until midnight. Sure you
*could* install a charger, but who would?

Think, man!

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Scott in SoCal wrote, On 2008-02-03 08:27:

[...]

> 3) I'd prefer not to have the basis for our entire economy under the
> control from a part of the world that hates us, hates our way of life,
> and wants to destroy us. [...]

Wyoming.

Alan Baker > writes:

> In article >, kkt > wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > > > Yea, but how much will it cost and how much coal will be burned to
> > > > > > recharge
> > > > > > the battery when you plug it in?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yup.
> > > > >
> > > > > One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> > > > > about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
> > > > > sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
> > > > > power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
> > > >
> > > > There's some truth to that. However, electric vehicles would be
> > > > plugged in mainly at night, when existing demand is at its lowest.
> > > > Might be able to supply them primarily with hydro after all.
> > >
> > > Ummmmm... ...no.
> > >
> > > Electric cars are going to add lots of load at two very obvious times:
> > >
> > > When everyone commutes in to the office and parks, what do they do? They
> > > plug in, of course! So spike in demand from 0800 - 1000.
> >
> > No. Employers aren't going to let their employees charge their cars
> > at company expense, any more than they let them fill their tanks at
> > company expense. There's no outlets in the parking lot now, and I
> > don't think they'll be installing them.
>
> Hmmmm...
>
> So people will need to charge their vehicles -- potentially -- and you
> don't think that anyone will come up with a way to charge for the charge?
>
> >
> > Cars will have to be able to make it to and from work on a single
> > charge. Long-distance commuters for whom that's a problem will be
> > stuck with gas or hybrids.
>
> Because in our society nobody ever comes up with a means to sell
> something.
>
> If no one else jumps on the opportunity first, I'd love to be the guy
> who invented a little pay-for-juice charging station you could install
> in parking lots.
>
>
>
> >
> > > And the same again when everyone returns home. They all plug in their
> > > electric cars right then and there, because the last thing anyone will
> > > want when they go out to use their cars later in the evening is for it
> > > to be sitting with a half charge. So another spike from 1600 - 1800.
> >
> > That's a little more likely, but it does correspond with a decrease in
> > demand as workplaces close.
>
> Do a little study. Early evening is on-peak in winter and mid-peak in
> summer and late afternoon is the reverse.
>
> Now add millions of electric cars...
>
> >
> > Perhaps utilities will start charging more for peak power. Some
> > already do. If utilities do that, it would be easy to install a timer
> > so it doesn't start charging until midnight.
>
> And then you won't have a car you can use until midnight. Sure you
> *could* install a charger, but who would?

The car would need to be able to go to work, back, and out a shorter
distance in the evening as well on a single charge. I don't think
that's impossible. The census reported in 2004 that the average
commute is 24 minutes one way.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...cs/001695.html

Evening trips would be shorter; restaurants, grocery stores, etc., are
usually closer to home than work is. So you'd be talking about 90
minutes of operation on a charge.

-- Patrick

In article >,
Scott in SoCal > wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 07:07:11 GMT, Alan Baker >
> wrote:
>
> >> You can justify a lot more expensive pollution control equipment on
> >> one power plant than you can on 10,000 cars...
> >
> >True, but modern cars are getting pretty good at pollution control as it
> >is...
> >
> >...and all the pollution control in the world won't do anything about
> >CO2.
>
> So prove to us that replacing gasoline-powered cars with electric cars
> would not result in a net decrease in overall CO2 emissions.

Sorry, but that's not the way it works.

Those who advocate changing the status quo must prove the advantages of
doing so.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

In article >, kkt > wrote:

> Alan Baker > writes:
>
> > In article >, kkt > wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > > > > Yea, but how much will it cost and how much coal will be burned
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > recharge
> > > > > > > the battery when you plug it in?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yup.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to
> > > > > > talk
> > > > > > about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
> > > > >
> > > > > There's some truth to that. However, electric vehicles would be
> > > > > plugged in mainly at night, when existing demand is at its lowest.
> > > > > Might be able to supply them primarily with hydro after all.
> > > >
> > > > Ummmmm... ...no.
> > > >
> > > > Electric cars are going to add lots of load at two very obvious times:
> > > >
> > > > When everyone commutes in to the office and parks, what do they do?
> > > > They
> > > > plug in, of course! So spike in demand from 0800 - 1000.
> > >
> > > No. Employers aren't going to let their employees charge their cars
> > > at company expense, any more than they let them fill their tanks at
> > > company expense. There's no outlets in the parking lot now, and I
> > > don't think they'll be installing them.
> >
> > Hmmmm...
> >
> > So people will need to charge their vehicles -- potentially -- and you
> > don't think that anyone will come up with a way to charge for the charge?
> >
> > >
> > > Cars will have to be able to make it to and from work on a single
> > > charge. Long-distance commuters for whom that's a problem will be
> > > stuck with gas or hybrids.
> >
> > Because in our society nobody ever comes up with a means to sell
> > something.
> >
> > If no one else jumps on the opportunity first, I'd love to be the guy
> > who invented a little pay-for-juice charging station you could install
> > in parking lots.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > And the same again when everyone returns home. They all plug in their
> > > > electric cars right then and there, because the last thing anyone will
> > > > want when they go out to use their cars later in the evening is for it
> > > > to be sitting with a half charge. So another spike from 1600 - 1800.
> > >
> > > That's a little more likely, but it does correspond with a decrease in
> > > demand as workplaces close.
> >
> > Do a little study. Early evening is on-peak in winter and mid-peak in
> > summer and late afternoon is the reverse.
> >
> > Now add millions of electric cars...
> >
> > >
> > > Perhaps utilities will start charging more for peak power. Some
> > > already do. If utilities do that, it would be easy to install a timer
> > > so it doesn't start charging until midnight.
> >
> > And then you won't have a car you can use until midnight. Sure you
> > *could* install a charger, but who would?
>
> The car would need to be able to go to work, back, and out a shorter
> distance in the evening as well on a single charge. I don't think
> that's impossible. The census reported in 2004 that the average
> commute is 24 minutes one way.
>
> http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...ican_community
> _survey_acs/001695.html
>
> Evening trips would be shorter; restaurants, grocery stores, etc., are
> usually closer to home than work is. So you'd be talking about 90
> minutes of operation on a charge.
>
> -- Patrick

And you're talking about *people* who are used to having more like 2 or
three times that. If they're going to be sold on vehicles with more
limited energy capacity it is obvious that they're going to want ways to
recharge that vehicle to its capacity.

Hell, if there were a way you could easily ensure your car was always
kept full "just in case" wouldn't you?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

In article >, kkt > wrote:

> Alan Baker > writes:
>
> > In article >, kkt > wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > > > > Yea, but how much will it cost and how much coal will be burned
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > recharge
> > > > > > > the battery when you plug it in?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yup.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to
> > > > > > talk
> > > > > > about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
> > > > >
> > > > > There's some truth to that. However, electric vehicles would be
> > > > > plugged in mainly at night, when existing demand is at its lowest.
> > > > > Might be able to supply them primarily with hydro after all.
> > > >
> > > > Ummmmm... ...no.
> > > >
> > > > Electric cars are going to add lots of load at two very obvious times:
> > > >
> > > > When everyone commutes in to the office and parks, what do they do?
> > > > They
> > > > plug in, of course! So spike in demand from 0800 - 1000.
> > >
> > > No. Employers aren't going to let their employees charge their cars
> > > at company expense, any more than they let them fill their tanks at
> > > company expense. There's no outlets in the parking lot now, and I
> > > don't think they'll be installing them.
> >
> > Hmmmm...
> >
> > So people will need to charge their vehicles -- potentially -- and you
> > don't think that anyone will come up with a way to charge for the charge?
> >
> > >
> > > Cars will have to be able to make it to and from work on a single
> > > charge. Long-distance commuters for whom that's a problem will be
> > > stuck with gas or hybrids.
> >
> > Because in our society nobody ever comes up with a means to sell
> > something.
> >
> > If no one else jumps on the opportunity first, I'd love to be the guy
> > who invented a little pay-for-juice charging station you could install
> > in parking lots.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > And the same again when everyone returns home. They all plug in their
> > > > electric cars right then and there, because the last thing anyone will
> > > > want when they go out to use their cars later in the evening is for it
> > > > to be sitting with a half charge. So another spike from 1600 - 1800.
> > >
> > > That's a little more likely, but it does correspond with a decrease in
> > > demand as workplaces close.
> >
> > Do a little study. Early evening is on-peak in winter and mid-peak in
> > summer and late afternoon is the reverse.
> >
> > Now add millions of electric cars...
> >
> > >
> > > Perhaps utilities will start charging more for peak power. Some
> > > already do. If utilities do that, it would be easy to install a timer
> > > so it doesn't start charging until midnight.
> >
> > And then you won't have a car you can use until midnight. Sure you
> > *could* install a charger, but who would?
>
> The car would need to be able to go to work, back, and out a shorter
> distance in the evening as well on a single charge. I don't think
> that's impossible. The census reported in 2004 that the average
> commute is 24 minutes one way.
>
> http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...ican_community
> _survey_acs/001695.html
>
> Evening trips would be shorter; restaurants, grocery stores, etc., are
> usually closer to home than work is. So you'd be talking about 90
> minutes of operation on a charge.
>
> -- Patrick

And you're talking about *people* who are used to having more like 2 or
three times that. If they're going to be sold on vehicles with more
limited energy capacity it is obvious that they're going to want ways to
recharge that vehicle to its capacity.

Hell, if there were a way you could easily ensure your gasoline-powered
car was always kept full "just in case", wouldn't you?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."