Impressive auto

In article >,
"Michael G. Koerner" > wrote:

> Bill Z. wrote:
> > Alan Baker > writes:
> >
> >> In article
> >> >,
> >> Carl Rogers > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Viatologists,
> >>>
> >>> Wow... Here's an outfit out of Carlsbad, Calif. (outside San Diego)
> >>> who reportedly offers a car capable of 300 MPG:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.aptera.com
> >>>
> >>> If you've got $30,000 (USD), patience, California residency and a
> >>> sense of adventure, have at it! Oh yeah... No--it does not fly.
> >> And...
> >>
> >> ...oh, yeah...
> >>
> >> ...the production model doesn't exist and as of now has no firm
> >> introduction date.
> >>
> >> They don't even have the funding to build the production facilities yet.
> >
> > Better, check out <http://www.aptera.com/details.php>, which claims the
> > mileage drops with how far you drive, going to an asymptotic value of
> > 130 miles per gallon. This sounds crazy, but what they seem to be
> > doing is measuring on-board fuel consumption and not counting the
> > energy stored in the battery as part of the fuel.
> >
> > It's basically a three-wheel electric or hybrid motorcycle with a
> > faring to cut air drag, and seems to be able to seat two people.
> > You can plug it in to recharge the battery.
>
> Yea, but how much will it cost and how much coal will be burned to recharge
> the battery when you plug it in?

Yup.

One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
about is where all the electricity is going to come from.

It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
power companies fire up the coal generating stations.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

In article >,
Scott in SoCal > wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:51:16 GMT, Alan Baker >
> wrote:
>
> >One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> >about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
>
> Even if it comes from burning coal that's still better than importing
> oil, IMHO.

Why?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

In article >,
Scott in SoCal > wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:10:30 GMT, Alan Baker >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Scott in SoCal > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:51:16 GMT, Alan Baker >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> >> >about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> >>
> >> Even if it comes from burning coal that's still better than importing
> >> oil, IMHO.
> >
> >Why?
>
> Well, for starters, we don't have to import coal from unstable regions
> of the world, and we don't have to send American troops to die in
> order to keep the coal trains rolling. It doesn't **** up our balance
> of trade, either.

1. There's lots of oil to be imported from stable parts of the world.

2. There's no need to send American troops anywhere to get it. Just pay
for it.

3. If there are problems with your balance of trade, start making better
goods to export instead of worrying about what you need to import.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Scott in SoCal > wrote in
:

> Well, for starters, we don't have to import coal from unstable
> regions of the world, and we don't have to send American troops to
> die in order to keep the coal trains rolling.

I wasn't aware that we had troops dying in Canada.

--

In article >,
Scott in SoCal > wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 00:55:36 GMT, Alan Baker >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Scott in SoCal > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:10:30 GMT, Alan Baker >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article >,
> >> > Scott in SoCal > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:51:16 GMT, Alan Baker >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to
> >> >> >talk
> >> >> >about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> >> >>
> >> >> Even if it comes from burning coal that's still better than importing
> >> >> oil, IMHO.
> >> >
> >> >Why?
> >>
> >> Well, for starters, we don't have to import coal from unstable regions
> >> of the world, and we don't have to send American troops to die in
> >> order to keep the coal trains rolling. It doesn't **** up our balance
> >> of trade, either.
> >
> >1. There's lots of oil to be imported from stable parts of the world.
>
> And there are a lot of Indians and Chinese who are ready to enter a
> bidding war with us in order to obtain it. OTOH, there is nobody
> waiting to bid on our coal deposits, and, even if there were, we will
> always have first dibs.

So what you're saying is that you don't want to *pay* the going rate and
so acid rain and pollution don't bother you...

>
> >2. There's no need to send American troops anywhere to get it. Just pay
> >for it.
>
> Then why do we have troops in Iraq?

Damned if I know.

>
> >3. If there are problems with your balance of trade, start making better
> >goods to export instead of worrying about what you need to import.
>
> Since you seem to have all the answers, perhaps you'd consider running
> for political office?

I don't have all the answers. I just know that your reasons for burning
coal aren't valid.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

In article ]>,
Alan Baker > wrote:
>
>One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
>about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
>
>It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
>sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
>power companies fire up the coal generating stations.

Coal and hydro are both base load. When demand spikes, they fire up
oil and natural gas generators. Except in California, where they burn
natural gas for base load, then wonder why electricity costs so much.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

In article >,
Scott in SoCal > wrote:
>On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 00:55:36 GMT, Alan Baker >
>wrote:
>
>>2. There's no need to send American troops anywhere to get it. Just pay
>>for it.
>
>Then why do we have troops in Iraq?

Not for the oil. Saddam would have sold us as much oil as we were
willing to pay for.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

In article >,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

> In article ]>,
> Alan Baker > wrote:
> >
> >One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> >about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
> >
> >It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
> >sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
> >power companies fire up the coal generating stations.
>
> Coal and hydro are both base load. When demand spikes, they fire up
> oil and natural gas generators. Except in California, where they burn
> natural gas for base load, then wonder why electricity costs so much.

That's not the way it is in BC or Ontario (the two regions with which
I'm familiar), but the point is somewhat moot.

The real point is that if electric cars are going to need electricity
derived from fossil fuels, then there is no real advantage over internal
combustion vehicles. In fact, if one remembers that electricity is
neither produced nor transported with 100% efficiency, electric cars
could in theory produce *more* greenhouse gases than highly efficient IC
cars.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Alan Baker > writes:

> In article >,
> "Michael G. Koerner" > wrote:
>
> > Bill Z. wrote:
> > > Alan Baker > writes:
> > >
> > >> In article
> > >> >,
> > >> Carl Rogers > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi Viatologists,
> > >>>
> > >>> Wow... Here's an outfit out of Carlsbad, Calif. (outside San Diego)
> > >>> who reportedly offers a car capable of 300 MPG:
> > >>>
> > >>> http://www.aptera.com
> > >>>
> > >>> If you've got $30,000 (USD), patience, California residency and a
> > >>> sense of adventure, have at it! Oh yeah... No--it does not fly.
> > >> And...
> > >>
> > >> ...oh, yeah...
> > >>
> > >> ...the production model doesn't exist and as of now has no firm
> > >> introduction date.
> > >>
> > >> They don't even have the funding to build the production facilities yet.
> > >
> > > Better, check out <http://www.aptera.com/details.php>, which claims the
> > > mileage drops with how far you drive, going to an asymptotic value of
> > > 130 miles per gallon. This sounds crazy, but what they seem to be
> > > doing is measuring on-board fuel consumption and not counting the
> > > energy stored in the battery as part of the fuel.
> > >
> > > It's basically a three-wheel electric or hybrid motorcycle with a
> > > faring to cut air drag, and seems to be able to seat two people.
> > > You can plug it in to recharge the battery.
> >
> > Yea, but how much will it cost and how much coal will be burned to recharge
> > the battery when you plug it in?
>
> Yup.
>
> One of the things the proponents of the electric car don't want to talk
> about is where all the electricity is going to come from.
>
> It's not like there are lots of hydro-electric generating stations just
> sitting idle until they're needed. When demand spikes, that's when the
> power companies fire up the coal generating stations.

There's some truth to that. However, electric vehicles would be
plugged in mainly at night, when existing demand is at its lowest.
Might be able to supply them primarily with hydro after all.

-- Patrick

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:47:46 -0600, in misc.transport.road
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote in
>:
>In article >,
>Scott in SoCal > wrote:
>>On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 00:55:36 GMT, Alan Baker >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>2. There's no need to send American troops anywhere to get it. Just pay
>>>for it.
>>
>>Then why do we have troops in Iraq?
>
>Not for the oil. Saddam would have sold us as much oil as we were
>willing to pay for.

"Daddy screwed up and I wanna prove that I can do better than he did."

Of course, US troops were better off when Saddam ran Iraq and US troops
weren't targets of Iraqis, but W is a bit confused by the idea of
competence.